Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 60

Thread: My 101 Scout Cannonball Build

  1. #11

    Default

    69 WTR

    This was a good weekend. I got the cam bushings and gears all setup and ready to go. I used gharper's advice on the lapping compound and using the oil drive gear to drive the gear train, but it was hell on my hands so I changed it up a bit. I put a bolt through the magneto gear and drove the gear chain with a wrench.

    IMG_1234.jpg

    Then I decided to deal with the pinion and drive shaft races. The pinion race was not only heavily pitted but it was also not all the way into the housing and the thrust washer behind it was loose. So I decided to go against kitabel's advice and replace it. So I put the crankcase in the oven at 275 for an hour. When I pulled the case out and put it on the ground to push the race out, it just fell out. I was a little worried about getting the new one back in inline with the drive race. So I decided to make a tool to push the pinion race in through the drive race.

    IMG_1230.jpg

    It worked like a charm. It's always a good sign when you spend an hour making a tool you only use for a minute. Put the case into the oven and the push tool with the race on it into the refrigerator for an hour. Assembled the case and pushed the pinion race in with the pushing tool through the drive race. Just like that it was in and straight.

    For the drive race I decided against pushing it out. The first rule of the workshop is 'Don't make it worse'. I was worried I'd make a mess of things trying to push a new one in. So, instead I honed out the race 0.0015 inches, I'll make up for it with over-sized roller bearings. That took most of the pitting out. What remains should be OK. As kitabel suggested the pitting isn't connected and the oil layer should keep the bearings protected.

    Now it's on to the flywheels.

  2. #12

    Default

    The flywheel work didn't pan out. In order to balance the flywheels I need to assemble the connecting rods and one piston. But the big end bore was 0.005 over the OD of the brand new races I have. I guess I'm supposed to hone out the big end of the connecting rods to fit. I'm thinking I need to bore them out to an interference fit of 0.0015-0.0020, unless someone knows better.

    Either way I have to wait because I don't have the right size hone stones to fit. So I'll have to order them and wait.

    I decided to leave the land of thousands and move back to the land of close enough. I went back to my rear hub. I last worked on the rear hub back when I was just going to ride around town on the bike, not drive it across the country. I have a 28' scout rear hub with the ball bearings instead of the roller bearings. And all of the races we're iffy.

    So I decided to get the bearing races out of the rear hub. Here's how not to do that. 1) Use a big hammer and a drift through the axial at an angle. Result: Nothing happens. 2) Use a 20 ton press with the drift catching the lip of the race to push out. Result: Heat treated race shatters into a million pieces. 3) Use a dremal to cut it out. Result: Would have ruined the hub case. 4) Go to harbor freight and buy a 'Rear Axle Bearing Puller Set'. Result: Get home and find out it's too big. 4) Give up and call it a day. Result: Frustration.

    Wake up the next day and sit and think for all of 5 minutes. 5) Cut a 2 inch piece of 1/8 inch piece of flat steel bar. Drop it down the axial flat on the back of the bearing. Push it out with the press. Took about 15 minutes all together and both races came out with out any drama at all.

    I think T. Cotten said in another post some where, only the Harley guys use hammers. I should have listened.

    IMG_1243.jpg
    IMG_1242.jpg

    WTR : 68
    Last edited by d_lasher; 05-28-2019 at 02:28 PM.

  3. #13

    Default

    It's been awhile. Last weekend we got a chance to go hunting for parts at the 'Dirty Dog Roadhouse' swap meet in Golden CO. It was pretty small and we didn't find any of the parts we were looking for. But, right away we caught a glimpse of a early Indian Chief with a cannonball number on it! We went right to it and started talking with owner. Turns out it's gharper from here. What a small world. Even though we didn't find any parts we needed, we got a ton of information, tips and advise. We talked, actually I asked questions and he answered them, for at least an hour. We even got a ride in his side-car! What a nice guy.

    This last weekend it was back to work. All I managed to do this weekend was assemble the connecting rods and bearings and test fit everything. First, I had to hone out the rod's big ends so I could push the race in. Then I built a tool to push the races in. I swear I spend more time making tools then using them. I spent all day Saturday and most of Sunday making the push tool. It had four parts, a base for the rod to sit on. A sleeve that fit in the rod and held the race to keep it square. A collar to push against the race and fit inside the female end of the rod. And a push rod to keep every thing square and together.

    58180765112__1C5CB1DA-80A0-4763-9941-45D86B996D6A.jpg

    You can even just make out the 0.030" grove in the collar to have the race stick out 0.030" of the male connecting rod. l'll put drawings up on my blog, https://www.thecastlehillgarage.com/the-workshop soon.

    After I got the race's pushed in I had to hone the races to fit the bearings. The whole process takes me forever. It's the measuring that takes so long. I'm so worried about overshooting the diameter, I have to measure it ten times every 5 minutes. Hone, both ways, clean it up, take it to the workbench and measure it 10 times frontwards and backwards and then repeat the process again and again. All to take 0.002 inchs out. I could never do this for a living, I'd go broke.

    I did manage to mock up the flywheel yesterday. Today I'll start balancing them.

    WTR : 66

  4. #14

    Default

    Congratulations on the progress and accumulated wisdom.
    On the balancing: many motors removed from service will show holes drilled into the outer faces of the flywheels, since this is all that's available when they're assembled.
    However, any weight removal should be in the inner faces only. Not really practical, this includes filling in any outward-facing holes and starting over.
    Weight removed from the outer faces places the actual center of gravity on a line between the crankpin and the balance holes, which will be a diagonal rather than a vertical line. As the flywheel spins up, the mass of each side tries to rotate around its center of gravity rather than its shaft center, and this imbalance produces vibration, and flexes each crankpin and shaft taper in its hole by bending.

  5. #15

    Default

    Thanks, that was one of my questions and it does make sense. I do have more questions about balancing. I feel like the old trick of balancing the flywheel with both rods and one piston isn't right when my pistons are aluminum and weigh a lot less now then the old factory pistons. So I'm thinking, and I almost hate to bring it up, of weighing everything and just using a balance factor of 68%. I searched online and somewhere, someone said 101 scouts had a factory balance of 68%.

    My thoughts are I'm looking for a slow, reliable ride and the higher factor would give a better general purpose ride. The last thing I want is a drag racer. Does this make sense? If I use these numbers I end up using the two rods, one piston and an extra 30 grams.

    Fine print, by piston I do mean piston, rings, clips and pin.

    When I hang this up on the balance beam I'm off by a lot. I figure I'd have to drill 7 to 8 holes? Does that seem right?

  6. #16

    Default

    I agree, the "total the components" is not valid if significant weight changes have been made.
    What % factor would I use in a 101? I would shamelessly copy whatever some known expert has used successfully. Anything else could be an expensive experiment.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    482

    Default

    You may find Jim Moshers site performanceindian.com interesting.Although his speed records are on newer scout power the info in the tech talk lower ends section would apply to a 101 also I beleive.
    Tom

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Central Illinois, USA
    Posts
    4,308

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by d_lasher View Post
    Thanks, that was one of my questions and it does make sense. I do have more questions about balancing. I feel like the old trick of balancing the flywheel with both rods and one piston isn't right when my pistons are aluminum and weigh a lot less now then the old factory pistons. So I'm thinking, and I almost hate to bring it up, of weighing everything and just using a balance factor of 68%. I searched online and somewhere, someone said 101 scouts had a factory balance of 68%.

    My thoughts are I'm looking for a slow, reliable ride and the higher factor would give a better general purpose ride. The last thing I want is a drag racer. Does this make sense? If I use these numbers I end up using the two rods, one piston and an extra 30 grams.

    Fine print, by piston I do mean piston, rings, clips and pin.

    When I hang this up on the balance beam I'm off by a lot. I figure I'd have to drill 7 to 8 holes? Does that seem right?
    Wow Dana!

    68% is the first time I ever heard a factor for 101s, just like most other machines.
    Sounds good to me because just about anything works (as long everything else is in order).

    It would be great to back calculate the real thing, for History's sake,..

    So I suggest estimating what it came with if you can, and determining what you've got as is, before eating metal.
    (Sometimes its better to stuff'n'plug, and stuff.)

    Can you weigh your rod tops?

    ....Cotten
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by T. Cotten; 06-11-2019 at 12:51 PM.
    AMCA #776
    Dumpster Diver's Motto: Seek,... and Ye Shall Find!

  9. #19

    Default

    I suspect that some "unsuccessful" (some vibration remains) balance jobs are not due to a bad choice of factor, but of:
    1. wheels are not true
    2. rod(s) are bent
    3. unreasonably high cruising RPM
    4. balance factor not applied equally as to metal removed and position (as my previous post), this includes (very slightly) holes not drilled to the same depth.

    Calculations based on weight are, IMHO, deconstruction of what has already worked. An illustration: from front piston position 45 BTDC to TDC and 45 BBDC to BDC, the front and rear pistons are moving in opposite directions, and their exact vectors are affected by rod ratio. Neither of these are included in any balance formula.Flywheel balance X-section-2.JPG
    Last edited by kitabel; 06-11-2019 at 08:00 PM.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Central Illinois, USA
    Posts
    4,308

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kitabel View Post
    I suspect that some "unsuccessful" (some vibration remains) balance jobs are not due to a bad choice of factor, but of:
    1. wheels are not true
    2. rod(s) are bent
    3. unreasonably high cruising RPM
    4. balance factor not applied equally as to metal removed and position (as my previous post), this includes (very slightly) holes not drilled to the same depth.

    Calculations based on weight are, IMHO, deconstruction of what has already worked. An illustration: from front piston position 45 BTDC to TDC and 45 BBDC to BDC, the front and rear pistons are moving in opposite directions, and their exact vectors are affected by rod ratio. Neither of these are included in any balance formula.
    Absolutely, Kitabel!

    Kinda meant that with 'everything else in order'..

    And yes, yes,.. motor 'balancing' is only a practical technique, not really science.

    ....Cotten
    PS: But the #4 'position' thing confuses me: How then did the MOCO successfully run huge left flywheels?


    And #3,.. For some reason my Pans always preferred to scream. (Loved Eisenhower's Interstates.)
    It was like an aircraft 'humm' at seventy with 22-tooth motor and tranny sprockets and a hack.

    PPS: I almost forgot!
    There are experts who proclaim that the female rod 'top' should be shaved to what they feel is equal to the male, in spite of what you describe: masses moving in "opposite" directions.
    Good thing these things are forgiving...
    Last edited by T. Cotten; 06-11-2019 at 03:39 PM.
    AMCA #776
    Dumpster Diver's Motto: Seek,... and Ye Shall Find!

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •