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Thread: Excelsior Hub

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    Ohio
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    650

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    Eric,
    Thank you.
    My original plan was to adapt it for timken brgs, hence the deeper bore. Thought about reproducing them but without a cnc lathe the 14 hrs it took to make wouldn't be a profitable adventure. I have an 18" swing Monarch lathe.
    Bob Rice #6738

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
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    283

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    Bob,
    Thank you, good to be back and not in screaming pain 24/7.
    What bike is the hub for? What machine was used to turn it because the sfm sure looks constant. It truly is a good looking part! Is the inside countersink on the hub that critical or is it to just break the edge? Yes, the countersink would be difficult to keep a constant depth.
    I was thinking if all the parts were in fractions, not this part alone. I guess I was just trying to make a point about the print in general because I cannot see a production print being in fractions, also the way this part is dimensioned. The location of the material call out and how it is called out with the diameter of the stock seems funny as well.I
    I know the draftsmen tools are in fractions, but the production parts are checked with tools that read in decimals, point being is it easier for one man to do the conversion on the prints before it hits the floor. I would like to see some more factory prints from the company.
    I just think there is something odd about it, but we will never know the story behind it. In any case, it is still great to have it and I am glad Eric shared it is as well The production photo.
    The engineers back then we're way more talented than we are today.
    Last edited by ryan; 03-18-2019 at 12:20 PM.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Sarasota, Florida
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    4,086

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    I think you are over thinking this, Ryan Other than the bearing housing bores, a front hub is not a precision part and fractional dimensions are more than adequate. Machinists, set-up men, and checkers can convert fractions to decimals in their sleep. At the end of the day, it has always been the accountants that tell you how accurate, what material, and what degree of finish a part will have because mass production is always about profit. Even short run production is about money because people aren't doing this for love. . . . Well, apparently I do it for love, because I damn sure don't make money making Henderson, Merkel, and Excelsior parts The drawing below is another Excelsior/Henderson part. Bear in mind, this part was no doubt stamped, and formed, then drilled in a drill fixture. I had 2 other Ex drawings but I traded them away, (for who knows what?).

    Eric Smith
    AMCA #886

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    283

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    Eric,
    I understand what you are saying about tolerances and the bearing i.d. as well. You are right, I have to change my hats. In my production machining lines the only floor prints were in the parts quality area and they were very seldom touched. They just did their line checks per list. Any adjustments were made by a line leader and it they had issues, they came and got me.

  5. #25

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    Eric,
    You may have this one as well.


    DSC02559.jpg

    Steve

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Sarasota, Florida
    Posts
    4,086

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    That is the Timken bearing hub that started in 1924 on the last Big Excelsior, and continued with the Henderson and Super X.
    Eric Smith
    AMCA #886

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    650

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    Bob,
    Thank you, good to be back and not in screaming pain 24/7.
    What bike is the hub for? What machine was used to turn it because the sfm sure looks constant. It truly is a good looking part! Is the inside countersink on the hub that critical or is it to just break the edge? Yes, the countersink would be difficult to keep a constant depth.
    I was thinking if all the parts were in fractions, not this part alone. I guess I was just trying to make a point about the print in general because I cannot see a production print being in fractions, also the way this part is dimensioned. The location of the material call out and how it is called out with the diameter of the stock seems funny as well.I
    I know the draftsmen tools are in fractions, but the production parts are checked with tools that read in decimals, point being is it easier for one man to do the conversion on the prints before it hits the floor. I would like to see some more factory prints from the company.
    I just think there is something odd about it, but we will never know the story behind it. In any case, it is still great to have it and I am glad Eric shared it is as well The production photo.
    The engineers back then we're way more talented than we are today.
    '27-'29 JD rear. 18" Monarch, manuals can turn constant!! The edge break on the flange inner is a chamfer for the spoke conical, consistence depth is probably not that critical, but on a one off part with the holes staggered from one flange to the other the machinist must come up with a way to countersink that area from a right angle point of machining. The tool holder and cutting tool must be larger than the c'sink and still not hit the recessed OD of the main body. Thats' all I meant about it being difficult for a one off, not impossible, obviously.
    Bob Rice #6738

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
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    283

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLakeBob View Post
    '27-'29 JD rear. 18" Monarch, manuals can turn constant!! The edge break on the flange inner is a chamfer for the spoke conical, consistence depth is probably not that critical, but on a one off part with the holes staggered from one flange to the other the machinist must come up with a way to countersink that area from a right angle point of machining. The tool holder and cutting tool must be larger than the c'sink and still not hit the recessed OD of the main body. Thats' all I meant about it being difficult for a one off, not impossible, obviously.
    I am very impressed with the finish for sure. My old Sheldon lathe sure doesn't turn constant, pull out the crocus cloth.
    You guys are really getting me interested in the centurian bikes. Going to have to talk my dad's cousin out of one some how. He has a barn full of jd bikes in various states of disrepair. He has other makes as well hanging from the ceiling. Really neat place.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    33

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    Quote Originally Posted by exeric View Post
    Dan, I don't think the basic dimensions of the Excelsior double brake hub changed, but I have seen early rear hubs that had more narrow spoke flanges, and smaller spoke holes. The 1915 Excelsior used a Mussleman hub, and 1916 and later were in house Excelsior hubs. I haven't seen a rear hub drawing, but I would suspect that the hub was beefed up when the Excelsior offered the military fork, and in anticipation of the heavier Henderson. My parts books show the following rear hub shell #s:
    XE 3783..........Series 16
    XG 3783..........Series 18-19
    XK 801............Series 20
    Just one small correction Exeric, the 1915 used the Excelsior hub as well, although the Big Valve Roadster of that year is likely a Mussleman hub as the back end is essentially from a 1914 X. Gearbox models are Excelsior hubs front and rear from 1915 onwards.

    You are correct in the spoke flange thickness and spoke hole diameter changing through the years on these hubs. The grease nipple hole was also deleted later on, and by 1923 there was a taper bearing conversion kit available for the rear hubs. In fact I have some evidence that the factory was using taper bearings in this hubs in 1923 for the Deluxe Henderson (prior to what we know as the Timken bearing hubs). I have a complete original wheel and a rusted out hub with these taper bearings in the pre Timken style hub. The quill on the hub only suits the late 23 and 24 style wide rear brake as used on the Deluxe and last of the Big Xs (prior to the change to the flat bar type brake as used on late 24 onward Deluxe and Super X).

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