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Thread: 46 Knuckle engine

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Upper Yarra Valley, Victoria. Australia
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    829

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    It is late winter here and flu season is going great. By this I mean, just about everyone is complaining of coughs, colds, and sore holes.
    I've been a bit green around the gills since Tuesday so a couple of days went past before I got out of bed.
    I offer apologies for the interruption to scheduled viewing... but I do have a note from my mum to say I could stay away.
    Sick of being sick, I came out to the workshop, switched on the lights, turned on the heaters and dragged my heels around for a while.
    Here's what I got done:
    The countersunk scaring from the case stud nuts was 030” deep. I had to weld up a missing piece on the right case.
    While I was spot facing that one, I decided to spot face all the pads and I will use a Colony stud kit with washers to protect the faces.

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    Scheduled viewing may have a few interruptions over the next week. The first AMCA meet will be held at Bulli near Woolongong NSW next weekend. A rag tag crew of us will leave Melbourne on Thursday and get there Friday morning. If I don't get back to post anything before that date...its ok because my sick note has no date.
    Regards Steve
    Steve Little
    Upper Yarra Valley. Victoria.
    Australia.
    AMCA member 1950

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Upper Yarra Valley, Victoria. Australia
    Posts
    829

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    Hi.
    Time to get back into this engine.
    Today I was going through my parts and making a shopping list for shafts, nuts, etc for the flywheels.
    During my hunt I came across this cam which I bought about 10 years ago and remember that it is NOS.
    The brown colour on the lobes is dried up cosmoline and the tag has come adrift.

    It is a solid spindle cam which I thought denoted it as Knuckle, but I don't build enough engines to be confident in the difference between Knuckle and Pan cams.
    I got a few more cams out and did a side by side with a Pan head H cam, and some early Knuckle cams.
    The profile of the lobes on the NOS cam look more like the Pan head cam than the 2 Knuckle cams on the right.
    Thought I would throw the pictures up to the information bank of this community, to see if anyone can shed some light on the cam.

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    Steve Little
    Upper Yarra Valley. Victoria.
    Australia.
    AMCA member 1950

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Beautiful Northern New Mexico
    Posts
    2,176

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    Steve, that is a Panhead cam. As you can see on the Knuckle cams the lobe is much taller. That is due to the 1-1 rocker arm ratio. If you look at them side by side the lobe spacing on the shaft is also different and does not line up with Knuckle tappet guides.

    The standard FL cam is not marked, the "H" (FLH or "Victory" cam), The "61" for 61CI or FLE motors, and the HL (TT Cam) are all marked.
    Last edited by Rubone; 09-01-2017 at 01:07 AM.
    Robbie Knight Amca #2736

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Upper Yarra Valley, Victoria. Australia
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    829

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    Excellent information. Thanks Robbie.
    I had just finished posting the pictures of the cams when I heard a loud clatter and thud. I called out to see if everything was allright. My wife calls out to come and look. She was just backing out the drive when a neighbor walked in and said hello. Literally 5 seconds later, a big gum tree fell from across the road and landed square in our drive. It would have flattened Anne's car. I spent 3 1/2 hours cutting it up to clear the road. Tomorrow I will post a picture of the side profile of the Knuckle and Pan lobes.
    Steve Little
    Upper Yarra Valley. Victoria.
    Australia.
    AMCA member 1950

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    539

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    Glad to hear disaster was averted, Steve!

    Coincidentally, my old chopper motor has 1941 knucklehead cases, with a panhead top end.
    Naturally, it has a panhead cam and valve train, including lifter blocks. Curiously, the innermost lifter roller does not perfectly line up with the cam lobe; it runs off the edge about 1/8" or so, maybe more. The only issue I can see would be premature wear, but the truth is, that motor hasn't been opened up since the mid-'80s, and I've owned it since 1974.
    I've always been curious about that roller misalignment; apparently that's one of the differences in the right side case between knucks and pans. I may never really know....

    (Apologies for polluting the theme of your thread....)

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Upper Yarra Valley, Victoria. Australia
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    In the past I have read that people who made Knuckle-Pan motors had to do some kind of change with lifter blocks or cams but I never fully understood the process.
    As per Robbie's description, the following picture shows the difference between Knuckle and Pan cam lobe placement on the spindle.
    For a more definitive description I tried to set up the cases and cam cover, and take some pictures with the different cams fitted and the contact of the roller on the cam with one lifter block fitted. But I have already fitted and reamed new bushes to the case and cover.
    I decided to use the original Knuckle cam and I cleaned the end spindles with my Sutton external reamer and cut the bushes accordingly.
    The H cam that I pictured is also NOS, so it is a couple of thou larger than the cleaned up Knuckle cam, and wont fit in the bushes.

    Rooster. Thanks for contributing. I downgraded your term “Polluting” to “interesting side note”

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    Steve Little
    Upper Yarra Valley. Victoria.
    Australia.
    AMCA member 1950

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Upper Yarra Valley, Victoria. Australia
    Posts
    829

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    Apologies Rooster. I hit "Post" before thanking you for your sentiment.
    Had the neighbor not walked in at that second, it would have been a very different time.
    Thanks again.
    Steve Little
    Upper Yarra Valley. Victoria.
    Australia.
    AMCA member 1950

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    539

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    I appreciate your effort looking into the cam lobe alignment issue, Steve. I confess that viewing your photo on my phone is futile, so I'll study it closely on my big computer screen the next time I fire it up.
    You may find it crazy that I've saved the parts from when my pan/knuck motor was overhauled in 1975, and after all these years, I'm pretty sure I still have the original cam that shows the wear from the tappet roller running off center. I'll have to go a-digging, but I want to see it again now.
    (Again, I apologize for this "interesting side note" detracting from your motor overhaul thread. But you really don't see many pan/knuck motors around. (Or is it 'knuck/pan' since it has a knuck lower end?) Frankly, unless you look at the VIN, there's nothing unusual-looking about it.)

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Upper Yarra Valley, Victoria. Australia
    Posts
    829

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    Hi Rooster.
    I don't think your phone is the problem, but more that my picture of the cams doesn't give a great pictorial reference on the subject.
    I remembered another set of Knuckle cases, so I got them out and mocked up a Pan head cam and then a Knuckle cam.

    First 2 pictures are a Pan head cam viewed through front lifter block hole. The close up shows the roller contact on the lobes.

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    Next 2 pictures are Pan head cam viewed through rear lifter block hole.

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    Last picture is a Knuckle head cam fitted

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    Steve Little
    Upper Yarra Valley. Victoria.
    Australia.
    AMCA member 1950

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    539

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    You can sure see the difference- even on my little phone screen.
    Panhead cam + panhead lifter blocks + knucklehead cases = imperfect alignment (on all lobes?)
    Logic would suggest that concentric loading on the roller axles might promote premature failure of roller needles. *However* - I have many tens of thousands of miles on my '41 pan, without issue.
    That's very interesting stuff, Steve, and thanks for the excellent photos, and taking the time to mock up the parts. I'll go digging for my old cam later today.
    There is one other modification worth mentioning about this hybrid motor: top end oiling. Since knucklehead cases lack the provision for internal oiling to the top end through the cylinders, the panhead cylinders must be drilled into the oil passageway and tapped for a fitting. Then a special "T" oil line fabricated. The 'old guy' I bought this bike from in 1974 (R.I.P. Ivan) put the motor together, and being a certified union pipefitter, fabricated a tidy little oil line out of stainless steel tubing.
    Tom

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