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Thread: Powerplus or Bust, Eh?

  1. #761

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    Quote Originally Posted by pisten-bully View Post
    ... and not to mention the paint left on that cast iron case, it definitely belongs on your bike!
    Exactly. There ain't no way I'm repainting that one. The bike didn't have a transmission when I got it, but that one looks like it could have been on that bike for years.
    Wait till you see the kick starter. It still has a faint ghost of military green.




    Kevin

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  2. #762

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    I got some discussion outside the forum about the lapping of the shift shaft bushing that is worth passing on. I get a fair bit of feedback via email and phone from this forum, and sometimes it's worth sharing.

    The concern with lapping soft bushings is the potential for the grit to embed into it, which could result in accelerated wear of the shaft. Obviously, wear is bad, but especially in the case of century old motorcycle parts that we want to preserve. In my suspension, for example, I used Nylatron for the bushings rather than the original steel, to preserve the good original steel shaft that I found.

    When you are lapping a harder material, like steel, it is common to use a brass lapping block or barrel lap, that will hold the grit. The grit embeds into the brass and wears away at the steel. My friend Bob, who is a highly experienced machinist and tool and die maker, taught me earlier this year to lap bronze bushings by using diamond lapping compound. You put the compound onto the brass barrel lap, and push it against a piece of carbide to embed the diamond grit into the brass, then you wipe away the remaining lapping compound so that there isn't any left the get embedded into the bushing. I think you can see a piece of 3/4 carbide bar about 4 inches long in one of the pictures I posted, it has some duct tape wrapped around it's ends as handles from when I was using it as a bearing scraper years ago. This method has worked well and I will continue to use it.

    As an alternative, my friend Burgie, who restores and maintains old iron for a living, offered up that he uses a product called Timesaver for lapping soft bushings. Apparently it's a powder that you mix with water, and it doesn't embed into the bushing.












    I'll probably look for a can and give it a try sometime.



    Kevin


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  3. #763
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    360

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaky Jake View Post
    The concern with lapping soft bushings is the potential for the grit to embed into it, which could result in accelerated wear of the shaft.
    Not to go too far off the main topic of restoring your Indian, but I've heard this for years about lapping. I realize that "everyone knows" lapping would embed particles in the part being lapped, but does it really? Maybe I haven't spent enough time looking, but what I've not found are metallographs showing that this is actually the case. Is there verifiable evidence showing what "everyone knows" is actually the case, or has it been passed on as "fact" from generation to generation without being tested because it sounds plausible?

    Also, since honing uses hard particles held in a binder, why is it a problem to lap a bronze bush but not to hone it? All it would take to answer these questions is to point me to side-by-side metallographs of bronze bushes lapped and honed with, say, 400 grit. This is more than just of academic interest since I own a Sunnen hone (as do you), and I use its (hard) abrasives to fine-tune the IDs of (soft) bronze bushes.

    OK, enough of the rhetorical questions. Back to the Indian.

  4. #764

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoschZEV View Post
    Not to go too far off the main topic of restoring your Indian, but I've heard this for years about lapping. I realize that "everyone knows" lapping would embed particles in the part being lapped, but does it really? Maybe I haven't spent enough time looking, but what I've not found are metallographs showing that this is actually the case. Is there verifiable evidence showing what "everyone knows" is actually the case, or has it been passed on as "fact" from generation to generation without being tested because it sounds plausible?

    Also, since honing uses hard particles held in a binder, why is it a problem to lap a bronze bush but not to hone it? All it would take to answer these questions is to point me to side-by-side metallographs of bronze bushes lapped and honed with, say, 400 grit. This is more than just of academic interest since I own a Sunnen hone (as do you), and I use its (hard) abrasives to fine-tune the IDs of (soft) bronze bushes.

    OK, enough of the rhetorical questions. Back to the Indian.
    10-4 BZ. Thanks for the comment. That's why I characterized it as a "concern" and "potential" rather than proven fact. It seems like it could happen so we take precautions. My electron microscope is on the fritz so I won't be able to provide any scientific evidence, do you know anybody that works for a university that might have access to one? ;-) I suppose that the art of antique motorcycle maintenance is based more on first and second hand expirience than scientific method. That's why forums like this are so valuable. We're lucky to have them.

    Is your Cannonball mount ready? I've been so busy I fallen behind on reading you build blog. From what I've seen your build has been meticulous. Can't wait to see it.




    Kevin

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  5. #765

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    Apologies for skipping ahead. I will go back and fill in the details, but this is the status of
    Patience at this moment. Mag is on, timing set, cam case closed up, valves set, motor pretty much buttoned up other than carb and plugs.








    Kevin

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  6. #766
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Blighty
    Posts
    234

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    Hi Kevin, the bike is looking great with, aparantly, not too much left to do? You mentioned that the timing case is now all buttoned up so I assume that the improved geometry parts are installed? I will be very interested to hear your reports on how they perform.

    The start of your big ride is not too far away so I assume that the next step is some test miles?

    What is your departure date for Portland?

    John

  7. #767

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    Quote Originally Posted by TechNoir View Post
    Hi Kevin, the bike is looking great with, aparantly, not too much left to do? You mentioned that the timing case is now all buttoned up so I assume that the improved geometry parts are installed? I will be very interested to hear your reports on how they perform.

    The start of your big ride is not too far away so I assume that the next step is some test miles?

    What is your departure date for Portland?

    John
    Hi John,

    Yes, the reverse engineered intake cam followers are in. They look great and restore my valve lift and timing back to original. I'll provide details in a later post. I still need to take the front end apart, grease the head stock bearings, check the wheel bearings, brake, etc. Also, I want to improve the headlight so it doesn't need duck tape to hold the lens on, and I want to redesign the compression release linkage so it works a little better, a few things like that. But yes, I hope to do some test miles in the near future. We have to be in Portland on the 4th. I still have some work to do on the moto van. I'm not sure when I'll get to that!




    Kevin

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  8. #768
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    360

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaky Jake View Post
    do you know anybody that works for a university that might have access to one? ;-)
    Funny you should ask, but I know someone who has two in his lab. So, what's needed is for someone to take the time to hone and to lap a pair of bushes as equivalently as possible. I can personally guarantee that I would be able to convince that university person to section the bushes and examine them for evidence of embedded abrasive. However, not that it matters, but since 500 grit is 14 microns for this he would use an optical metallurgical microscope to generate the metallographs since its resolution is more than adequate at ~0.5 microns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaky Jake View Post
    Is your Cannonball mount ready?
    It depends on your definition of "ready"...

    I've put ~100 miles on it so far in a few runs where several issues were revealed and dealt with. I also learned the symptoms of gross over-oiling on the first total-loss motorcycle I've ever owned, and learned how not to do that again (I hope...). The last issue I'm currently aware of is too much oil is getting past what someone 90 years ago considered to be an oil "seal." Unless the UPS driver delivers the package to the wrong address (which has happened before), later today I'll have the lip seal that barely fits in the available space for a seal holder I'll machine today. Fingers crossed, an uneventful test ride will take place tomorrow, in which case the stress level will drop to 2 from the current Defcon 1.

  9. #769

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoschZEV View Post
    Funny you should ask, but I know someone who has two in his lab. So, what's needed is for someone to take the time to hone and to lap a pair of bushes as equivalently as possible. I can personally guarantee that I would be able to convince that university person to section the bushes and examine them for evidence of embedded abrasive. However, not that it matters, but since 500 grit is 14 microns for this he would use an optical metallurgical microscope to generate the metallographs since its resolution is more than adequate at ~0.5 microns.

    It depends on your definition of "ready"...

    I've put ~100 miles on it so far in a few runs where several issues were revealed and dealt with. I also learned the symptoms of gross over-oiling on the first total-loss motorcycle I've ever owned, and learned how not to do that again (I hope...). The last issue I'm currently aware of is too much oil is getting past what someone 90 years ago considered to be an oil "seal." Unless the UPS driver delivers the package to the wrong address (which has happened before), later today I'll have the lip seal that barely fits in the available space for a seal holder I'll machine today. Fingers crossed, an uneventful test ride will take place tomorrow, in which case the stress level will drop to 2 from the current Defcon 1.
    Lets put the microscope thing on the list for after the Cannonball. I love that kind of stuff. Science is cool.

    I'm with you on the stress level. And I'll tell that it took me about three 300 mile days in 2016 to get my oiler adjusted properly. I'm sure your system is different than mine, but I understand the challenge.




    Kevin

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  10. #770

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    Someone on the other forum brought up the exhaust, so I'll skip ahead to the muffler. When I was mounting it I noticed that the rivets holding the front mounting bracket on were loose, and in fact the rivets were nearly worn away from movement. The muffler is made from three main sections that are held together by a long bolt through the middle, in the axial direction. The front end, at the top of the picture, is the inlet chamber where the pipes slip in. It has the front mounting bracket riveted to it, and a little skid plate underneath. The middle section is basically a squashed piece of tin pipe, and the rear plate has the exhaust pipe swedged to it and it has an extra port that can be opened or closed for quite or fast running. Here's a picture:







    You'll notice that the whole thing has been nicely preserved by a baked on layer of transmission oil. These are the rivets that needed to be replaced:








    This picture is looking into the inlet chamber. You would be able to see the other end of the rivets if they weren't covered in that heavy layer of spooge.








    This is the bolt that runs through the middle. It's about twice it's normal diameter due to the heavy layer of carbon that I had to knock off.








    Here are the new rivets after I installed them:








    After that, all I had to do was assemble and mount it.


    Kevin

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