judging frustration

[TimR]

It is amazing, this thread is 10 pages long and not one reply from any owners of "winner circle bikes" have replied as to how they would feel about having their machines becoming part of this data base. Why the silence?

[T. Cotten]

Folks,

Don't just add record keeping.
Start all over with record keeping.

If the program isn't a competition, why are there "winners"?

....Cotten

[Sargehere]

Folks,

Don't just add record keeping.
Start all over with record keeping.

If the program isn't a competition, why are there "winners"?

....Cotten

A constructive comment. Hmmm. 2013, start all over: no previous recognition counts for anything/counts only for being from the (newly designated, "out-dated") "old judging system," and an entirely new system is introduced, open to all 35-plus years' old motorcycles. This will give owners who have just been collecting "repeat Winners' Circle" pins for years (Tom Payne is approaching 100 of um) the opportunity to have their bikes closely re-examined by fresh eyes with more scrutible (def.: "capable of being understood through study and observation; comprehensible.") judging rules, "once and for all." A free-for-all, of sorts, prior scores wiped clean, awarding entirely new numbers, perhaps on a one thousand-scale (to make the new scores easily discernible from the scores earned under the "old system").

All new scores will be "a comparison of the presented machine against a clearly-defined ideal." Whether that be: "Out of the factory door, off-the-showroom-floor," "as ridden in its period," whatever is hammered out.

Along with that, the capture of each eligible motorcycle with a portable, versatile, 360º digital video system. I.e.: Right after judging, roll the bike over here, to this (12-foot or 15-foot diameter, perhaps, round, white-walled portable "studio" structure, with appropriate floodlights) to have a once-over "trip around the block" by a hi-def video camera on a round track, or hanging from an overhead trolley, designed to capture all the detail it can of the vehicle.

File the video with the appropriate data and make the video and written docs available on line.

Think that might satisfy critics? Like was said of the Six-million Dollar Man: "Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. We have the capability to build the world's first bionic man. Steve Austin will be that man. Better than he was before. Better, stronger, faster."

[LouieMCman]

It is amazing, this thread is 10 pages long and not one reply from any owners of "winner circle bikes" have replied as to how they would feel about having their machines becoming part of this data base. Why the silence?

I was lucky enough to buy a bike years ago that with a little effort turned into a 98 point winners circle bike. I would be glad to have it in a data base but as with any new task WHO is going to do it? Maybe we could pay someone like we do the magazine? What about all the travel expenses to every national meet? Another point is that no matter what is documented, some people will always contest it. I had someone point out that my decals were wrong on my original paint bike, I pointed out that I knew of at least three original paint bikes that were exactly like mine and ask for proof of what he said were the right decals, and of course he has not offered any picture proof.

I would also like to comment on all the posts about TROPHY collectors, WINNERS, ect. Are they jealous or just hate the judging system that bad? If so why not try and change in a positive way. I get tired of hearing people piss and moan about stuff and not do anything about it. I could really care less about the trophy's, for me that not what it's about. I do have a few trophies but they are for RIDING in the field events and road runs, not shows. I realize some are hung up on trophy's and will spend whatever it takes to get them. But a lot of people just want to have their bike judged against how it was originally. I must admit though that the Merkel trophy they used to give for Senior award is not real big and fancy but is a pretty cool trophy.

[bobdo]

I keep telling myself, I've contributed enough to this subject I'm bowing out. But sorry, I can't yet.
What the heck is wrong with trophys? I don't have any, but I sure respect what it takes to get one. I'm all for the club handing someone a dust collector in recognition of their accomplishment. It doesn't matter if its a big tower of marble & brass or a piece of paper, its the recognition of the premier Antique Motorcycle Club of America awarding their stamp of approval. One thing I've learned is you can't run anything by committee because you can't please everybody. The best thing you can do is put the right people in place (which you have) & let them do their job. If theres money available to put together a database of "factory correct" bikes, the club should step up & do it. If the entries are dated, the researcher will be able to decide the most current info.
OK, I'm done. Happy Easter folks.

[T. Cotten]

..
What the heck is wrong with trophys?

Bob!

Trophys do not preserve History.

(I've got a bucketfull if you think you need some.)

"Winning" is what folks think the program is all about,
and vintage motorcycling suffers for it.

....Cotten

[Spag]

Cotten,
I tiptoe into this discussion cautiously to call attention to the AMCA Judging Survey results which appear in the Spring Issue of the AMCA magazine. This survey was conducted to address the criticism directed at the judging program from some quarters to find out how the members actually involved in the program in 2011 felt about it. The response was excellent by the number of returns and the overwhelming majority of participants were satisfied with their experience. Does this mean the system is perfect? Of course not. But I don't think vintage motorcycling is suffering because of AMCA judging which gives the participants a trophy plaque if they earn it based on the judging criteria. Just my thoughts and not a criticism of your point of view.
Richard

[ronald]

I've never had a bike judged, nor have I ever really wanted to as all the bikes I've seen being judged were trailer queens and never ridden or even started unless it was a requirement to be judged that they be started or ridden for a very short loop around the parade ground, not even enough to warm them up. I can see a strict judging class for "as left the factory", only factory installed option packages as required for model. No dealer installed options, PERIOD! These bikes must start easily and be ridden. There is always some argument as to when or if this or that is a legitimate accessory for the model or year or whether it was available early or late that is the reason for the "as left the factory" designation. No one off's or "experimental" bikes. All bikes in this class must have been models offered for sale to the general public. Awards and points for originality would be appropriate. Perhaps a once a year, season ending grand award for the year for the most original bike that has accumulated the most points at the seasons judging's would be appropriate, however to make it "fair" for all participants only the top points scores from five shows would count. There is your "Winners Circle" award, one per year, make it count for something. A "Winners Circle" bike would not be allowed to compete for that award for two seasons after winning once.
I have ridden vintage bikes for years and I've had some nice ones but never one that I felt was pristine enough that it would be eligible for judging as mine were riders. As for everyone else a class for "as ridden right now", but must have correct fasteners and parts for their model and year but with allowance made for normal wear from riding, but must display a good maintenance level, no unrepaired crash damage, no aftermarket replica frames and forks. Motor and frame and fork must match for year and model. These bikes would be allowed period correct accessory parts generally available at a MOCO dealer.
No trailer queens. These bikes must start easily and be ridden and show it with normal wear in the appropriate areas,they must be clean although not professionally detailed. They wouldn't be docked points for minimal amounts of chain lube or normal oil seepage on bike unless the seepage has been left through obvious neglect, nor for worn paint on tanks from riders legs or ?. Fuel system leakage of any sort, excessive tire wear, excessively poor brake performance, any lights that don't work or any other safety issues would be grounds for disqualification or not being able to enter the judging. As for awards, I think an Honorable mention certificate for the top five or so would appropriate. If the owner of a "Rider" class bike wants to step up to the "as left the factory class", he may do so if his bike is accepted by the judging committee as appropriate for that class but only starting the beginning of the next show season.
These are just a few of my opinions on how to make the "Winners Circle" bikes really stand out and to not discourage those that either can't afford to chase that dream or would rather just have fun with a really nice bike and not be upset because his tires got dirty or he got caught in the rain. This would perhaps make the club more fun for new members to join and maybe enter their bike in a class that wasn't "so far out there" and perhaps enjoy some level of honor for their efforts.
You all know that this motorcycle thing is supposed to be fun and we need new blood to maintain and advance the club.
Ron

[T. Cotten]

Richard!

Please read my posts more clearly.
I am attacking the trophy mentality that corrupts the program.

Awards do not threaten History,... People do.

Nearly all of criticisms and complaints about the system can be addressed by changing the format from a contest to a registry.

.....Cotten

[bobdo]

Cotton,
I respect what your saying. I don't think you can control the mentality of people. It takes all kinds of people to make up this world, if we learn to accept that, all are better off. If the AMCA's platform is on preservation & provide an arena for preserved bikes & rider bikes, we can still offer those interested the current judging system of factory correct "trailer queens". I don't mean that to be deragatory, just not my type. Thanks for the offer, but I have no interest in your bucket 'o trophys. What I do have an interest in, is recognition from the respected members of this fine club for what I've accomplished in returning one more old motorcycle to the road. If it just turns a head as I pass by, that's good enough for me, no trophy is necessary. I have a lot of respect for you & countless others in this club. I fully enjoy being a member, this club is highly respected in the motorcycle community. The current judging system is what earned that respect. My ramblings in this thread are only offered as suggestions if not already considered. This forum is important to communicate our thoughts & share our ideas. It's good to hear others like Ron, voice similar perspective.