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Thread: judging frustration

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Mt. Sterling, Kentucky
    Posts
    294

    Default judging frustration

    Thru the years I have observed a lot of the judging, however I have only had a couple of bikes judged a couple of times. What I dont understand is all the inconsistance from meet to meet. It seems to me that when a bike is judged at one meet and then all the gigs are worked off for the next judging the bike should receive the next higher award. However, I have seen bikes get giged for items that were not even found the 1st time around. Also I have extensive factory archive photos of several bikes, not to mention over 55 yrs experience on a few bikes, and I have noticed that the judges dont have a clue on some of the items, so when judging if in their opinion it is not correct, they just take off for it. Seems to me if you are not sure you either ask for help or certainly not deduct for it. Dont, get me wrong, I know a lot of hard work goes into judging and it is very time consuming and my hat is off to all those who take part. I just wanted to vent a little frustration, thanks for listening, Larry

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Merritt Island, Florida
    Posts
    160

    Default

    Larry, the whole judging scene has been topsy turvy now for over a year ever since the Rocky/Kevin incident at Eustis in 2010.
    The head judge who was appointed in 2010 resigned at Eustis in 2011. The president has not yet appointed a new head judge. Many seasoned judges have backed off as well due to out of control internal politics which is far from over. There has been more emphasis on "bad numbers" than anything else of late. Knowledge is definately an issue for many of the new or remaining judges.
    Even when everything was fine before the upheaval some inconsistancies would still arise. When ever the same team of judges was able to review the same bike on more than one occassion, the consistancy was superior. We always could find something from one judging to the next since the judging can be so intensive it is impossible to catch everything the first time. With fidderent groups, they would review previous deductions and could still disagree with previous results, so no matter what, there will always be some inconsistancy, but for now, anything is possible until the whole system stabilizes, which to many of us is unlikely. If you want more background, review old posts under hotile takeover and other headings in the judging section.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    151

    Default

    My first, only, and last experiance has been head scratching as well. If you look at it as entertainment rather then educational, the process is more enjoyable. I also found that in my catagory that I was slightly more knowledgable then the judges. The education part that I got from it was that if I wasn't part of the solution, I was part of the problem and decided to lend a hand. Would I want the job of judging? mmmmmmmmm No. But I do think the people who do it are honestly trying. The whole thing seems to me to be a thankless job. No one wants to hear that the bike they painstakingly assembled over countless years is incorrect, myself included. Take it for what it is and enjoy the process I guess. I won't do it again but I can say now that I did it once. Just my two cents if I am entitled to it.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    399

    Default

    Out West here, we only have one opportunity to get our bikes judged per year ( unless we transport for some 2000 miles). So when I built my '40 Sport Scout with the advice, and parts from noted Scout expert, and then Assistant Chief Judge Robin Markey, I was pretty proud of efforts. Robin actually led the team that Judged my Scout, and I earned the Jr 1st, and set out to correct my infractions. I was overly anal on show bikes, and kept them in a plastic bag for the entire year between our Judgeble Meets. 2nd year rolls around, and again, Robin leads the exact same team on my Scout. I get advanced to Sr 1st, but they found some more infractions that were not noted during the first inspection. Still, the bike is advancing, and I am learning.
    Back to the shop, make the corrections, and back in the bag she goes for another year. Low & behold, Robin and the very same team go over my baby for the 3rd time. She makes Winners Circle, but I think the score actually went backwards! I was pretty disgusted, but I still learned, and the bike still advanced.
    Last year, the Judging Committee painstakingly created the Judging Guidelines Manual. This is an effort to make all the judging more uniform, despite who is judging the machine. The AMCA Judging System is considered the Best there is, and it is still constantly sought after by various entities, including FIVA, and the HVA. We are all striving to make our bikes worthy candidates for future reference. That is what the Club is all about. It's a tough road, but We are all doing this for the Good of the Club.
    RF.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    North Hills, CA and Pine Grove, CA
    Posts
    5,456

    Default

    If you have points off for anything you can document is correct the points will be restored. Bottom line is to have all of your documentation with you when the machine is judged. Factory photos, correct year parts books, ETC. Hearsay information is not documentation.
    One of the reasons for a team of judges is that no one person knows it all. True some things do get overlooked during one judging session are are discovered on the next one.
    Be sure to visit;
    http://www.vintageamericanmotorcycles.com/main.php
    Be sure to register at the site so you can see large images.
    Also be sure to visit http://www.caimag.com/forum/

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Princeville, IL
    Posts
    95

    Default

    Red Fred, your experience to the Winners Cirlcle sounds very much like my experience, although it was a different team of people each time, Jr. 1st was very good, Sr. was even better but from Sr. to Winners Circle the score went backwards. Interesting process but I probably wont experience it again as my machine is an original and I do not have an intense enough interest in restored machines. I think the judges do well and it was worth doing. I love that little badge on the back of the bike that says "Winners Circle"
    John Underwood
    AMCA#14400
    Central Illinois

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Posts
    508

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Underdoggie View Post
    I love that little badge on the back of the bike that says "Winners Circle"
    John
    when I took over as Chief Judge, I wondered why we were not honoring the bike's that had made it to the highest award we have to offer. why not let the world know that they are looking at a very special bike, so I had those tags made up to replace the "Senior" and advertise it as what it earned "Winners Circle"
    Kevin Valentine 13
    EX-Chief Judge

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    23

    Default

    Fred,

    Your statement is typical of the current board, facts are not correct. Yes, I judged your 40 Sport Scout, but I suggest you pull out your portfolio and check your sheets a little closer, you will see your statement is not correct.

    You mention about the new Judging Guidelines Manual. First off, it has a lot of mistakes in it. Second, it is useless unless the person judging the bike has the knowledge of what is correct on the bike that he is judging. You can have all the guidelines and rules in the world, but, if you don't have qualified, competent judges, your manuals are worthless. Even with my knowledge and as many years as I've been judging, it's very easy to miss something. A lot of us better judges, could be judging a 10 or 15 year span of 20 or so models, and sometimes different brands and it is very easy to miss something while judging. Plus the normal better judges and better teams were normally training apprentices also. That was the whole principal of having the bike judged a minimum of 3 times. Not only to give the owner a chance to correct the bike, but to also have it judged by, hopefully, a qualified team at least one of the times that it was judged.

    So if you're going to reference my name, please double check your information.

    Robin Markey

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Central Illinois, USA
    Posts
    4,298

    Default

    One can only wonder what the AMCA could achieve for vintage motorcycling,
    if all of this energy and dedication were put to something more productive than a fatally-flawed trophy competition.

    ....Cotten
    AMCA #776
    Dumpster Diver's Motto: Seek,... and Ye Shall Find!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Sarasota, Florida
    Posts
    4,163

    Default

    I was talking with a friend yesterday, about AMCA judging and you have to admit that it always has been a trophy hunt. Of course it rewards correctness and strives to build knowledge but that information and knowledge seems to be confined to the judging arena. If the mission of AMCA judging is to increase the knowledge of historical motorcycles, should we not be documenting the bikes that are the most correct. Additionally, that documentation should be accessable to all members. I know that is a huge undertaking and it has been discussed before with no results. I think without documenting the best bikes, AMCA judging is an expensive, pointless exercise that just gets everyone's blood pressure up.
    Eric Smith
    AMCA #886

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