judging frustration

[MeanGene]

My original 3900 mile 68 went thru 6 judgings as I corrected everything that they dinged trying to achieve the personal satisfaction of 100 pt bike. Included in this were gas line and clamps after being told these were safety and maintanance items not deducted for until the 3rd judging. It was always at 99 or above. Always some "NEW" item would be found and corrected not seen previously by the SAME judges. On try # 6 they pointed out 1 nut that was claimed to be wrong finish, by the SAME judges, never picked up before even tho it was staring them in the face all thru 6 times. Don't get me wrong , I am very happy with what I have and ride the bike alot and will continue to do so.

Perfect example of what I'm talking about, seems like nit-picking to the extreme, and "finding" a single "claimed" wrong "finish" nut on an original bike- seems like the old just-can't-give-a "100" thing. How much time did they spend trying to "find" a "flaw" so they could deny a 100?

[murph]

I got 100 points on an early sportster last year, but I think if you give a knowledgeable person long enough time they'll find something wrong. And really who cares if they do, Isn't that why your there? As long as it isn't something stupid like too much black stuff in the muffler.

[Knotthed]

It's all about preserving the machine for future reference.RF.

For whose future reference?

Just thinking outside the box here on this one. What if it were "Documenting" instead of "judging"?

A pictoral book report could be created for each make/model/year and individual bikes that are respective of each and placed into the Virtual Library. This would preserve enourmous amounts of reference material on these old bikes. Now this is no small task, but a template could be setup that covers the different major categorys of the bike, perhaps similar to the judging sheet.

This data could be available to all members for reference, instead of hoping to see a certain bike at a meet that may or may not show up.

The judging committee for each make/model/year and individual bikes could be documented with the pictorals. You would essentially be creating the largest motorcycle encyclopedia ever.

I think that some members concerns are that the current system loses more information than it preserves.

Given this is no small task, the owner should be involved in creating the report and it should be reviewed by the comittee? A lot of the work could be done up front, reviewed in a session and then signed off by the committee locking it in. Of utmost priority should be known original machines.

I have heard of points being taken off for a bolt being in backwards, I'm sure that never happened on a human run assembly line back in the day.............the new guys first day - someone was sick, the morning after the superbowl - need I go on?

I participated in an apprentice judging session at Davenport a few years back, it was very enlightening. The biggest problem I see is that these "Experts" retain the information in their head, not documented in print for all to use and see. With that said even though I have never had a bike judged, I would like to extend a thanks to them for volunteering their time to the club.

Just a different point of view.

[AFJ]

Every bike starts with 100 points before the judges see it, so they are not awarded 100 points, it's just that the judges cannot find any deductions. I worry about say 100 point Marushos, because it could just be that the judges don't know enough about that model to find faults. I've been in the unlucky position of judging a 1970s Harley two-stroke with a 'for sale' sign on it, about which I knew little, and promised myself I wouldn't do the Chief Judge any favours like this again. The judging system can now decline to judge a bike if a qualified team cannot be put together, but I don't know if this has happened yet.

We do now see 100 point bikes, where a well qualified AMCA judging team is not able to find any deductions in say 20 minutes. We had a 1970s Honda at Davenport a couple of years ago, and I believe the first was one of Pete Reeves' 1942 Harley ELC Canadian military knuckleheads. A judging team including Bruce Linsday beat their heads against this particular wall for perhaps half an hour but could find no faults. Surely this is the definition of a 100 point bike.

As Gerry says, sign up as an apprentice judge next time you're at a National Meet. It's a system run by fallible humans, but they do the best job they can. These are mostly guys who could have been home a day earlier, putting their knowledge back into the Club for the benefit of the next generation of members and the preservation of our little piece of motorcycle history.

Steve,
As a matter of interest regarding Pete Reeves ELC Knucklehead Canadian Military pattern bikes, are these equipped with the left hand sidecars? An old friend, who was stationed with the Canadian Ordnance Corps, Aldershot in Britain during WWII told me that they had just two of them, both run as solos. Originally, all 44 of the single batch of ELCs made were delivered from H-D with special sidecars with the wheels interchangeable with the bike wheels. I've not seen any ELCs here in Canada with these sidecars although I have pictures of the complete outfits on winter exercises with their designer (and the designer of the WLC) Tony Miller around 1942-43.
Al Johnson

[D.A.Bagin]

I would say they spent the allotted 15-20 min. on the bike. Remember they have the previous sheets to go by. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all the time and effort the judges put into this and it sometimes is a thankless job and I want to thank them. They donate their time, energy and knowledge for the club and the members for this. They could be on the highway on their way home.

[kval]

For whose future reference?

Just thinking outside the box here on this one. What if it were "Documenting" instead of "judging"?

A pictoral book report could be created for each make/model/year and individual bikes that are respective of each and placed into the Virtual Library. This would preserve enourmous amounts of reference material on these old bikes. Now this is no small task, but a template could be setup that covers the different major categorys of the bike, perhaps similar to the judging sheet.


I participated in an apprentice judging session at Davenport a few years back, it was very enlightening. The biggest problem I see is that these "Experts" retain the information in their head, not documented in print for all to use and see. With that said even though I have never had a bike judged, I would like to extend a thanks to them for volunteering their time to the club.

Just a different point of view.

DJ
funny you should think of this. that is exactly what Rocky and I had envisioned for the virtual library, way back when the idea first came up
but as we now know that never happenned

[Chris Haynes]

Steve,
As a matter of interest regarding Pete Reeves ELC Knucklehead Canadian Military pattern bikes, are these equipped with the left hand sidecars? An old friend, who was stationed with the Canadian Ordnance Corps, Aldershot in Britain during WWII told me that they had just two of them, both run as solos. Originally, all 44 of the single batch of ELCs made were delivered from H-D with special sidecars with the wheels interchangeable with the bike wheels. I've not seen any ELCs here in Canada with these sidecars although I have pictures of the complete outfits on winter exercises with their designer (and the designer of the WLC) Tony Miller around 1942-43.
Al Johnson

All Knucklehead and UL sidecar wheels interchange with the motorcycle.

[Steve Slocombe]

As Kevin said, the idea of documenting Winners Circle bikes has been around for a long time. It has not been abandoned, but requires considerable effort plus volunteers. Matt Olsen put together a list of what pictures might be required, but it was hard to organise the bikes/photographers to be in the same place at the same time. I produced a video of a Winners Circle 1936 Harley VLH being judged, which is now posted on the Virtual Library. It took about two days photography and two days editing to produce, costing about $1000 and took $30 in commercial sales, so is not for the faint hearted.

We don't keep all the judging info in our heads to try to catch out owners. My VL book has been through five editions this last 20 years, and some of the info in the early versions has been superseded, as well as new items included. Don't forget Jerry Hatfield's work on the Indians, and the many scarce original brochures already loaded onto the Virtual Library by George Yarocki, Bruce Linsday, Dr Cleveland and other worthy AMCA donors.

[Sargehere]

All Knucklehead and UL sidecar wheels interchange with the motorcycle.

I thought about commenting on that, too, Chris. I think the stories of the WWII Harley ELCs and the order of WLCs equipped with LH Goulding sidecars got crossed, somewhere along the line. There WAS an order of (400?) specially-equipped WLCs delivered to Canada with specially-ordered Goulding Litecars fairly early in the war.

That they might have had special axles and star hub wheels would only make sense, since the WLCs had Big Twin front wheels, brakes and fork rockers already, which would make the whole whole rig have interchangeable wheels and only one wheel type to keep in stock. in the supply chain.

[Knotthed]

As Kevin said, the idea of documenting Winners Circle bikes has been around for a long time. It has not been abandoned, but requires considerable effort plus volunteers. Matt Olsen put together a list of what pictures might be required, but it was hard to organise the bikes/photographers to be in the same place at the same time. I produced a video of a Winners Circle 1936 Harley VLH being judged, which is now posted on the Virtual Library. It took about two days photography and two days editing to produce, costing about $1000 and took $30 in commercial sales, so is not for the faint hearted.

We don't keep all the judging info in our heads to try to catch out owners. My VL book has been through five editions this last 20 years, and some of the info in the early versions has been superseded, as well as new items included. Don't forget Jerry Hatfield's work on the Indians, and the many scarce original brochures already loaded onto the Virtual Library by George Yarocki, Bruce Linsday, Dr Cleveland and other worthy AMCA donors.

Steve,

I applaud you and others and I have patronized the likes of Yarocki, Linsday and Hatfield. I am very thankful for their work. I will have to check out your video, although not of great interest to me at this point, due to my current project being of the other brand.

First, let me say that I think it would be wise to put the photo requirements on the owner, the owner is the one that wants to judge/document his bike so he should take an active role in that. He should know alot about his bike as it is in his posession most of the time. There could be a defined set of pictures required to accomplish this.

As I think about your comments about your video and Matt's pictures, I envision the ultimate in documenting winners circle machines being something similar to google street view. Here is how it could work, you park the bike in a designated spot within the working envelope of machine with an automated camera that can circle and hover around the machine capturing every aspect of the machine in high definition video or stills and then it would create an electronic 3D version of the machine that could be viewed interactively later on. If you could insert arrows and comments and text then you could identify the intricacies of the machine.........

This is probably not that far fetched with today's technology. Look at the Metrology world of 3D scanners and laser measuring equipement coupled with video/photo. Put the bike in, turn it on and sit back and relax.

Now that would be one awesome virtual library! Just like you were standing in front of the bike at a meet, except not as cool cuz your not at a meet.