New Judging reference handbook

[Sargehere]

Like it or not, Bikerdds, AMCA Judging is developing just fine. Spin it all you want. The first half is obviously over. Those that you report are hanging on the sidelines to see how the (judging) game develops have just made themselves spectators for the second half. Remember President Ronald Reagan and the illegal 1981 "PATCO" air-traffic controllers strike? They thought they were untouchable. He fired the bunch, and the nation's air transportation system survived.

I've been out there on the judging field with new, enthusiastic and knowledgeable judges, and plenty of long-time hands. I'll tell you that nothing happens overnight, but those mired in the past are just being left behind. Time marches on, ya know. I don't have any worries about the future of AMCA judging. And your tired complaints about the specific rule-changes ar just that. There are avenues to propose refinements; try working within the system as it is. As much as you might hope, judging hasn't "failed." It's alive and thriving, with both old and new blood. And no one with a whit of dedication got "booted."

Kevin Valentine quit when he walked out of the 2010 AMCA Board meeting in Eustis that night last year. I don't care how tired everyone was, he voted with his feet. Tempers flared in the hallway, as was reported in detail, but Kevin was certainly the more mature man, showed some spine, and kept working within the leadership of the club, in this forum, for the rest of the year.

Robin Markey OTOH, resigned at the end of Bike Week last year, rather than cooperate with the new judging (as a real grownup would). He reported and reported the circumstances for all of us to know intimately, ad nauseum, right here in the Judging Forum, Bikerdds.

I don't relish dragging all of this crap up again, but Robin took thousands of words to describe what went on. You didn't have to "be there," to hear the voice of someone in over his head and drowning in self pity. And, sure, this boiling down by me of the essence is out-of-context, but the pared context is a pained, rambling, obviously immature discourse that runs to pages and pages, and I can't do it any other way:

(AMCA President Rocky Halter) told me that I was not fired and I could still be the Assistant Chief Judge as long as I (would) work under the new chief judge and abided by all these new changes... but I turned around and went back and informed the president that I cannot accept his ultimatum, but would be glad to be the chief judge and in charge. So I was replaced."

Here: http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bbo...stile-Takeover

He couldn't be in charge, so he quit. That, to me, and I think to most lucid people, amounts to a "snit." Spin it all you want, bikerdds. As I told Robin then, in this forum: Rocky is the President, the decision to change the Judging rules has been made, and you salute and carry out the orders of those placed in office over you in the hierarchy or get the H. out of the way. Robin appears to have had other ideas, trying to foment all the dissent/disharmony within the club that he could muster. That's not maturity, and the AMCA leadership, and most of the membership, was not impressed.

I feel for Robin, he tried as hard as he could, but he took all the wrong actions, because he based his actions not on what already was, but on what he thought he could do to up end the decisions that had already been made that he didn't agree with, and because "they didn't put him in charge." If someone with that attitude was an employee of mine, he'd be unemployed. How about you, bikerdds?

Now, tell me again about who's been been gulping at the Kool-aid trough, denying reality.

[Sargehere]

Sarge, sorry I missed you, I left sat night, I still have a job I must tend to. There is one thing however that I dont understand about judging. When a bike is judged for the 1st time, and let us say it receives a jr 1st. So the owner goes back home and works off the gigs hoping for a sr the next time out only to have a different team of judges find things that were not even found the 1st time. For consecientsy sake it would seem to me that once the gigs are corrected the bike would move on to the next level, just my thoughts however I still think they work hard and do a good job, thanks, Larry

Sorry we didn't meet up, Larry! On the first and subsequent judgings, it is something that, unfortunately, happens. but under the guidelines, the judges have, I think, about 25 minutes to "do" a bike, often less at a well-attended meet. The completed judging sheet can't be looked at as a warrantee that these and only these things are wrong and will have to be corrected to advance to the next level.

Ultimately, responsibility for the correctness of a restoration lies with the person doing the restoring. A completed judging sheet is only a guideline. In this computer age there are reams of information and personal contacts available to complete the most important part of every restoration: the research. The first judging result should be viewed as a guide, but not as a guarantee that if you fix this and that, you'll advance to the next level at the next meet.

It might, but you can't ask that judges overlook things that would also contribute to the greater historical accuracy of the vehicle just because they weren't noticed at the first judging. The bike will move to the next level when it achieves that higher level of authenticity, whether immediately, or after two or more judgings, but it's nothing to lose hope about. Each judging provides entirely new sets of eyes, often with fresh perspectives, enriching the final product of your considerable efforts. Don't give up!
Catch you there next year!

[bikerdds]

Sarge, check back to Robin's quote from 5/1/10:
"It's a shame you weren't in the lobby of the hotel like I was. Kevin walked out of the board meeting, he did not quite the AMCA or the position of Chief Judge. I was in the lobby discussing the disclaimer with Richard Spagnolli, board member, approximately 15 feet from Rocky and Kevin and heard with my own ears Rocky firing Kevin. You were also not in my trailer Sunday when I was given the ultimatum by Rocky and also given till the end of bike week to give him my answer. You were also not with me during bike week to see me being snubbed by the new chief judge, the person Rocky wanted me to work under in his ultimatum. So after a week's worth of being snubbed, I stopped at Rocky's trailer on Saturday, which you weren't there in Rocky's trailer either, that's when I gave Rocky my ultimatum which was make me Chief Judge like you said you would in your email to me in November, or fire me. Seems pretty plain to me."

So you are off base with your facts.
So what did Kevin and Robin do to deserve your what appears as this hatred? Way over the top, man! There was a lot that set this in motion well before the board meeting that you obviously were not aware of.
I will agree with you that the judging is an on going thing that constantly needs to be messaged, but do you just accept everything like a lemming going over a cliff blindly following it's leader? That makes as much sense as agreeing with congress getting us further in debt like it will just disappear or fix itself, while we fall further behind other countries and spend ourselves into backrupcy. One person [the RIGHT person] can make a difference. This is also why we have a committee although many were asked[forced out] to leave. No one has been asked to not judge that I know, however, they just are uncomfortable with the circumstances which should be a private matter.
I also agree with trying to move forward, but when moving forward has set you backward based on results, it is time to realize what has really happened. That is why I mentioned you are drinking the Koolaid. LESS bikes are being judged. Period. Just look at eustis two years ago and compare to this year. And, being judged by less qualified individual in most cases.You can rant all you want about all the great new judges working with the older judges, but what good are they when the knowledge is on the sidelines to teach them right. Right or wrong,do you really feel that is what they want? The bottom line is, NO ONE handled this correctly, but I guess we can just believe there is nothing wrong with our judging or at least it's politics and continue to see it go down hill with less and less bikes being judged more and more poorly. To think otherwise is not reality. Even with an additional meet last year, the count was down significantly.
I gave a lot of credit to Steve for trying to accomplish what he did. He did not ask for what happened. You never have to agree with everything that is out on the table, however. You don't just move ahead blindly , either. And you are wrong if you believe folks weren't removed from the judging committee. They were among the most knowledgeable with years of experience and many with well over 100 bikes judged, as well as building and entering bikes of their own.
Second half? I didn't know we were playing football, but the way our judging hobby has been kicked around lately, I would say the final score isn't in. It just will take a little longer to see how it plays out. All the best to you.

[Chris Haynes]

I was under the impression that the club paid for the Chief and Asst. Chief judges travel. Am I incorrect?

[Red Fred]

The Club pays the travel of the Chief Judge to any of the National Meets that perform Judging. In the past, both the Chief, and the Assistant Chief had their travel expenses taken care of by the Club. But that was streamlined at last years' Eustice BOD meeting in massive cost savings budget cut across the board. As it stands now; The Chief is compensated for travel at Judging events. If, he does not attend, then the Assistant, or a National Deputy Judge can fill in, and be compensated for their travel, but never two at the same time. The BOD also did away with the Govenment mileage cost, and only compensates for fuel; no more vehicle wear & tear allowance like the National Rate.
RF.

[Sargehere]

...So you are off base with your facts.

Bikerdds, my quote predates your quote. Mine is from Post #2 of the above-cited thread begun by Robin Markey, dated 3-13-2010. Again here: http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bbo...stile-Takeover
(paragraph 2, beginning at line 15, and stretching, through extensive elaboration, to the last line of that paragraph, line 27). I agree: many versions of "the story" were offered, but patient reading of that, and other retellings here on the forum, give one a pretty full picture (not pretty!) of how the whole grisly episode unfolded. But after several months of his venting and telling and retelling, I jumped in here to tell Robin that enough was enough. He'd told his story, and that it was time to give it a rest. The decision to revamp the judging had been legally made at the top, and was not going to be reversed through more whining in this forum.

So what did Kevin and Robin do to deserve your what appears as this hatred? Way over the top, man! There was a lot that set this in motion well before the board meeting that you obviously were not aware of.

On the contrary, though I wasn't involved in the controversy of the "new judging system" before learning of it by attending the 2010 Eustis National Meet, I have been "schooled in it" extensively since! Robin explained and re-explained every detail he recollected, particularly unabashedly and "freshly" in the thread I cited, to every member of the club willing to read it, in his extensive writing here in this forum on the subject.

Hatred? I have no hatred for Robin, personally. There appears to have been a lot of confusion, and much ego-bruising in the unfolding of this dark episode in the club's history that y'all (regrettably) have disinterred, but if you have ever been engaged in business or the military at a high level, you know that these things go on. I think they call it "hardball." Or, "if it gets too hot..."

It should go without saying that you need to consider yourself bulletproof, with nerves of steel and with an iron will, to play in the big leagues, to carry on my sports metaphor, and that the AMCA is the big leagues of this world-wide, multi-million dollar antique motorcycle game; a fact that was brought into sharp focus by just that episode. Kevin was a man who was also attacked, something which I agree was very wrong in the way it went down, but he and Robin just got out-maneuvered politically. After the initial shock, Kevin showed maturity through it all.

On the contrary, the impression I brought away of Robin's constitution after reading all of his rambling discourse in the cited thread, and his others, is of someone who went weak-kneed, and became as petulant as a child denied his expected reward, when a backbone, wise counsel, and most of all, the patience of a saint were called for. I'm sorry for Robin, but I simply don't want a person who exhibits such characteristics when the going gets tough as AMCA Chief Judge.

I have known Mr. Markey at least 30 years, and never had a conflict with him, and heard only good things about him and how helpful he has been to other members within his areas of expertise. But they are not the indicators of leadership.

I will agree with you that the judging is an on going thing that constantly needs to be massaged, but do you just accept everything like a lemming going over a cliff blindly following it's leader? That makes as much sense as agreeing with congress getting us further in debt like it will just disappear or fix itself, while we fall further behind other countries and spend ourselves into backrupcy. One person [the RIGHT person] can make a difference. This is also why we have a committee although many were asked[forced out] to leave. No one has been asked to not judge that I know, however, they just are uncomfortable with the circumstances which should be a private matter.
I also agree with trying to move forward, but when moving forward has set you backward based on results, it is time to realize what has really happened. That is why I mentioned you are drinking the Koolaid. LESS bikes are being judged. Period. Just look at eustis two years ago and compare to this year. And, being judged by less qualified individual in most cases.You can rant all you want about all the great new judges working with the older judges, but what good are they when the knowledge is on the sidelines to teach them right. Right or wrong,do you really feel that is what they want?

ON THE CONTRARY, I'm comforted, even excited, to see all of the new people who are taking an interest in AMCA judging. I remind you that all those brain banks you claim are on the sidelines learned the craft exactly like the ones learning to judge now: by jumping in and getting their feet wet; beginning as people with experience of their own with at least one old bike to bring to learning judging, and with a heightened interest in learning exactly what made the old bikes tick, they are stepping forward and taking up a personal challenge. It's not magic, it's perserverence. The AMCA will survive and thrive. That's not being a "lemming," Bikerdds, that's being realistic. Practice improves the product.

The bottom line is, NO ONE handled this correctly, but I guess we can just believe there is nothing wrong with our judging or at least it's politics and continue to see it go down hill with less and less bikes being judged more and more poorly.

I fully agree that the change was handled really, really poorly, Bikerdds. But positing that AMCA judging is now retrogressing because different people are in charge is poppycock. I started this thread talking about the new Judging Guidelines Manual. It's well-done, and I believe that it's going to prove to be the best thing we've seen happen in years. It insures that like-deductions are made for like-discrepencies, and definitions never before explained in black-and-white are in there for all to see. No one thought of that before Steve Dawdy and the Judging Committee this past winter. If anyone did, they certainly didn't act upon their idea.

...I gave a lot of credit to Steve for trying to accomplish what he did. He did not ask for what happened. You never have to agree with everything that is out on the table, however. You don't just move ahead blindly , either. And you are wrong if you believe folks weren't removed from the judging committee. They were among the most knowledgeable with years of experience and many with well over 100 bikes judged, as well as building and entering bikes of their own.
Second half? I didn't know we were playing football, but the way our judging hobby has been kicked around lately, I would say the final score isn't in. It just will take a little longer to see how it plays out. All the best to you.

And all of my best wishes to you and yours, also, Bikerdds. Reasonable men and cooler heads finally come to reasoned conclusions; we always do. People who don't agree know that there is a time, before the leadership makes their decision, to disagree and to provide input. But also know that once a decision has been made, the time for bickering is over and you follow the plan, or you pack your bags; as the saying goes, "There's the door." The AMCA isn't going to dissolve. Nothing will replace "the club," and judging is getting better and better. "Practice" doesn't degrade the results of anything. We're now in our second year of the new judging regimen, and personally, I like what I see. I'm moving on.

I would like to see you support the continuation of mileage re-compensation for our Chief Judge to attend ALL OF the National Meets. I can't think of anything more important to judging right now than his presence at meets, introducing and explaining the new format to an ever-growing number of newly-interested members. That measly compensation has been threatened, as I explained in a post above.

[Sargehere]

I was under the impression that the club paid for the Chief and Asst. Chief judges travel. Am I incorrect?

Time passes and things change, Chris. But thank you for bringing us back to the subject! The AMCA Semiannual meeting was held at the Eustis meet. With fuel in the range of $4 a gallon, apparently the AMCA Board has gotten "cold feet" when it comes to the importance of the subject of judging within the club. 'Makes ya wonder...

I understand that the Chief Judge's compensation was reduced to only "actual fuel receipts and two nights' local lodging." Period. Steve has expressed that he can't continue in the volunteer position of Chief Judge if it will cost him $15,000 to $20,000 for the year to be present at the National Meets and do his job. Who could? That's just crazy!

The IRS Federal Mileage allowance for automobiles is 51¢ per mile, as set for calendar year 2011. That's the standard that "everyone" uses who pays mileage, and was decided before the recent skyrocketing of gas prices everywhere.

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear All, I can confirm that Steve Dawdy did another great job last Sunday at Eustis. You can see the trend over the years that we are getting fewer Class 1, 2 and 3 bikes, more Class 6 and 7, and more non-American bikes. I sat in on Steve's Saturday apprentice and judges' seminars and you can see we have younger guys coming through the Club with just those interests - great!

I was pleased to see the Guidelines book being used at Eustis for the first time, plus it was being marked up and critiqued for amendments and updates. This should really help train new judges and ensure consistency across makes. As a Harley judge I always felt the Indians got an easy ride, until Toney Watson gave me a masterclass on a 1948 Big Base Scout at Davenport one evening about three years ago. Then two years ago I went round Oley with Ray Dhue leading the British bike team. They didn't know carburetor serial numbers the way we did on the US bikes, and missed a couple of plastic valve caps on early bikes, but were extremely knowledgeable. At Eustis there were only two VLs, both of which I'd judged before, so I chose to apprentice with the Honda team led by Bob Anderson. Whoa! He had a well thumbed Honda identification manual with him, and there are still plenty of original paint Japanese bikes out there, but here was a guy who had seen a lot of bikes and had a lot of parts through his hands. Respect! Those Japanese bikes earned their awards just the same way as the Harleys, Indians and Triumphs.

There were a couple of appeals dealt with at the meet, and we have a written appeals procedure for any bikes that slip through. We finished about 1 pm and most people stayed to give well-earned and sincere applause to all those receiving awards. That was a roomful of people who could have been home a day earlier and chose to volunteer their time for our Club. Likewise the bike owners I saw did not seem to be in it for the money or even the glory, but just wanted to 'get it right' and preserve a motorcycle as it was at the dealer when new. It was a good session.

[bikerdds]

Steve,

Did you ever judge with Robin on Indians or Hondas? Robin is it, when it comes to Indians from the early 30’s on up to and including the Indian Enfields. He’s also one of the top Honda guys, having worked on them daily his entire life. If you never judged with him, it’s a shame, it’s jaw-dropping. Robin’s mind doesn’t work like most of us, he’s like a walking encyclopedia.
You mention Toney Watson. You weren't as close to Toney Watson as a lot of us were. Toney was extremely knowledgeable on Indians and pretty knowledgeable on a lot of Hendersons, Harleys and other motorcycles too. Do you know who Toney went to when he had a question, as do most of the people in the Indian world? The answer is, the same guy that is receiving no respect from the AMCA hierarchy.

[Chris Haynes]

The Club pays the travel of the Chief Judge to any of the National Meets that perform Judging. In the past, both the Chief, and the Assistant Chief had their travel expenses taken care of by the Club. But that was streamlined at last years' Eustice BOD meeting in massive cost savings budget cut across the board. As it stands now; The Chief is compensated for travel at Judging events. If, he does not attend, then the Assistant, or a National Deputy Judge can fill in, and be compensated for their travel, but never two at the same time. The BOD also did away with the Govenment mileage cost, and only compensates for fuel; no more vehicle wear & tear allowance like the National Rate.
RF.

Thanks for clearing that up Fred.