Camel Back

[talbot-2]

To summarize, Indian began using the "hacksaw" mechanical intake valve in 1908 through 1909 on their "Diamond" frame models and made it available for retrofitting on earlier models.

Thanks Talbot-2, good documentation on the hacksaw intake but does anyone have any documentation regarding the "pushrod" mechanical intake utilizing a two lobe cam? I believe all or nearly all 1909 models I have seen had pushrod intake and my engine #H701 (apparently second to last documented 1908 single) has pushrod intake as well. Wondering if it was even documented in 1908. Does anyone know of any other high number 1908 singles or twins?[/QUOTE]

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Mike,

Could you describe specifically what you mean by a "pushrod" intake. I've reviewed all of the photos of the 1907, 1908, and 1909 model Indians and the only type of "mechanical" intake valve apparatus is the one that is commonly called a "hacksaw".

Does anyone have the measurements of the single motors for 1907, 1908, and 1909? It might be helpful for identification purposes to know the hp of a respective motor.

The 1907 sales catalog lists only a 2 1/4 hp single and a 4 hp twin.

The 1908 sales catalog notes that singles were offered with 2 3/4 hp, 3 1/2 hp, or 4 hp. Twins were offered with 5 hp or 7 hp.

The 1909 sales catalog notes that the Diamond frame models came in a 2 3/4 hp single or a 5 hp twin. The 1909 loop frame singles came with 2 3/4 hp, 3 1/2 hp, or 4 hp and the twins came in 5 hp or 7 hp.

My 1908 single, motor number 10XXX has a 4" outside diameter cylinder head with a height of 8" to the top of the fins. I have a 1907 single, motor number 51XX (motor only) that has a 3 1/2" outside diameter cylinder head with a height of 7 1/2" to the top of the fins. I believe the 1908 single to be a 2 3/4 hp and the 1907 single to be a 2 1/4 hp. Both of the crankcases are the same size, i.e., 8" in diameter.

Below is a close up photo of my 1908 with the "hacksaw" mechanical intake valve apparatus. Hope it helps.


IMG_2778.jpg

[talbot-2]

[QUOTE=mcarver;115298]Thanks Cory, I am getting motivated about early stuff again after taking a break. Here are some pics I just took of my engine #H701. I pulled the cam cover off and you can see the two lobe cam as well as the 701 stamp on the cam chest cover... indicating this engine left the factory as a fully mechanical intake engine, not a hacksaw type that someone put later parts on after it left the factory. On the magneto mount you can make out the stamps indicating December 1908 and from the serial number list I have seen (Harry Sucher I believe) H702 is the last recorded single for 1908. That would make this engine the second to last 1908. The intake tower on this engine has three tabs as you can see in the pics. The magneto I found quite a long time ago is the correct DA2 Bosch, but it is fixed timing, no advance / retard lever and there never was.... I don't know what the mag come off, I bought it at a tractor swap meet about 12 years ago. I do have the intake valve / housing but it's pretty beat up and mashed out of round on the intake manifold threaded area. I also found a carb but it is for a twin but it is in really good shape. I still need the correct single carb, intake tube, a better intake valve housing, compensating sprocket oil tank and some handlebars and seat post.



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I just noticed this morning that there is a hole in your 1908 cylinder head adjacent to the exhaust valve. This is where the "hacksaw" assembly rod fits into the cylinder head. I checked my 1907 motor (number 51XX) and there is no hole to attach a "hacksaw" assembly rod. I have to believe that your motor could have been fitted with the "hacksaw" assembly rod OR have been fitted with the atmospheric intake valve at one time.

I have wondered for a number of years of how accurate the Indian motor number list might be. Interesting that the list does not have any 1909 "Diamond" frame models listed even though they are shown in the 1909 sales catalog. The last "Diamond" frame models listed in the motor number list are in 1908, i.e., singles, H100-H702, and twins, T500-T1200. The motor number list also lists motor numbers beginning 5000-? as 1907 models. There is also no listing for motor numbers in the 10000 range for 1908. The production numbers listed in the same publication notes that there were approximately 2176 cycles produced in 1907; 3257 produced in 1908; and 4771 produced in 1909. With that in mind and based on the approximate production numbers, it seems highly unlikely that a cycle with the motor number of 10XXX would have been produced in 1907, but instead was most likely produced in late 1908. The size/hp of my 1908, motor number 10XXX also fits the descriptions listed in the 1908 sales catalog. My motor with the 51XX motor number also fits the description of the motors in the 1907 catalog and not the 1908 catalog. To further extrapolate this thought....Could the single, H-100-H702 and twin, T500-1200 numbered motors have been the "Diamond" frame models produced early in the 1909 transition year? The approximate production figures seem to indicate that that is a strong possibility.

Just food for thought...............what do you think?

Les

[mcarver]

[QUOTE=talbot-2;115489]

Thanks Cory, I am getting motivated about early stuff again after taking a break. Here are some pics I just took of my engine #H701. I pulled the cam cover off and you can see the two lobe cam as well as the 701 stamp on the cam chest cover... indicating this engine left the factory as a fully mechanical intake engine, not a hacksaw type that someone put later parts on after it left the factory. On the magneto mount you can make out the stamps indicating December 1908 and from the serial number list I have seen (Harry Sucher I believe) H702 is the last recorded single for 1908. That would make this engine the second to last 1908. The intake tower on this engine has three tabs as you can see in the pics. The magneto I found quite a long time ago is the correct DA2 Bosch, but it is fixed timing, no advance / retard lever and there never was.... I don't know what the mag come off, I bought it at a tractor swap meet about 12 years ago. I do have the intake valve / housing but it's pretty beat up and mashed out of round on the intake manifold threaded area. I also found a carb but it is for a twin but it is in really good shape. I still need the correct single carb, intake tube, a better intake valve housing, compensating sprocket oil tank and some handlebars and seat post.



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I just noticed this morning that there is a hole in your 1908 cylinder head adjacent to the exhaust valve. This is where the "hacksaw" assembly rod fits into the cylinder head. I checked my 1907 motor (number 51XX) and there is no hole to attach a "hacksaw" assembly rod. I have to believe that your motor could have been fitted with the "hacksaw" assembly rod OR have been fitted with the atmospheric intake valve at one time.

I have wondered for a number of years of how accurate the Indian motor number list might be. Interesting that the list does not have any 1909 "Diamond" frame models listed even though they are shown in the 1909 sales catalog. The last "Diamond" frame models listed in the motor number list are in 1908, i.e., singles, H100-H702, and twins, T500-T1200. The motor number list also lists motor numbers beginning 5000-? as 1907 models. There is also no listing for motor numbers in the 10000 range for 1908. The production numbers listed in the same publication notes that there were approximately 2176 cycles produced in 1907; 3257 produced in 1908; and 4771 produced in 1909. With that in mind and based on the approximate production numbers, it seems highly unlikely that a cycle with the motor number of 10XXX would have been produced in 1907, but instead was most likely produced in late 1908. The size/hp of my 1908, motor number 10XXX also fits the descriptions listed in the 1908 sales catalog. My motor with the 51XX motor number also fits the description of the motors in the 1907 catalog and not the 1908 catalog. To further extrapolate this thought....Could the single, H-100-H702 and twin, T500-1200 numbered motors have been the "Diamond" frame models produced early in the 1909 transition year? The approximate production figures seem to indicate that that is a strong possibility.

Just food for thought...............what do you think?

Les

Les,
Thanks for adding your input on this. By "pushrod" intake I really mean a pushrod like the 1909 and later style valve train where the cam had two lobes, one to actuate the intake via pushrod and rocker arm and one to actuate the exhaust valve. My engine has a rocker arm intake tower (not shown in the pics I posted previously), a two lobe cam, two separate cam followers and a hollow boss on the cam chest cover to the left of the exhaust valve stem where the intake pushrod inserted in the top of the cam chest to ride on the intake cam follower. There are some pics of the cam, followers and cam chest cover (stamped 701) in my earlier post and I will post some more pics showing the intake tower etc.. Also in my earlier post you can see on the underside of the magneto bracket that it is stamped "3-1/2 hp" so my engine was a 3-1/2 hp single magneto ignition. Also... the hacksaw mount hole is not threaded, just a cored hole. Dave Banks of Vancouver Island BC looked at my engine about 12 years ago and he believed it was a very very late example and that it was a true pushrod F head intake. He has a 1906 battery single with atmospheric intake and a 1909 magneto single with the pushrod intake both unrestored. His 1909 engine, like mine, has the cored hole where the hacksaw mount would have gone. My cam chest, followers and cam are identical to Dave's 1909 engine, which is a loop frame model. I have to say I am having a lot of fun sleuthing this out!
-Mike

[Grizz]

I agree with how much fun it is prospecting for information on these old motors. It seems that 08 was a busy time at the old wigwam, I guess if it were all well documented it would not be as much fun. Phil

[talbot-2]

Mike, Phil, and others,

More food for thought...........

Take a look at pages 14, 15, and 16, in the 1909 Indian sales catalog and I think that you will find the answers to your questions regarding a "pushrod" style intake mechanism. I took a closer look at the single cylinder loop frame motor on page 14 and then found an exploded view of "the valves" on page 15 with the rocker arm style intake tower. Page 16 has an in depth discussion regarding the "valve operating mechanism" and it seems to me that all three (3) pages describe exactly what you are talking about. Page 13 prefaces the above with paragraphs on "Some Features in the 1909 Indian".

The 1909 catalog lists a 3 1/2 hp single, battery ignition, with magneto, loop frame model. The diamond frame model came only as a 2 3/4 hp single or a 5 hp twin.

Since your H-701, single, magneto ignition is a 3 1/2 hp motor, then I believe that this indicates that the H100-H702 single motors and the T500-T1200 twin motors may have been 1909 loop frame motors.

Does this make sense? There are a couple of things that don't add up. One, is that your H-701 motor is/was mounted in a "diamond frame". And two, the oil site gauge on your motor was an external site gauge. The 1909 loop frame model motors had the oil site gauge built into the bottom face of the crank case. During the 1909 transition year could Indian have used the new style "mechanical" intake valve mechanism on their diamond frame models instead of the "hacksaw" mechanism? Or could they have used a 3 1/2 hp "H" numbered loop frame motor with a diamond frame crankcase in a diamond frame? .............all guess work and speculation.

Something else to consider might be the gear cover. What is it made of? The gear covers on the earlier models were made of a pot metal type material.

Also, the diamond frame models in the 1909 catalog appear to still have the "hacksaw" mechanical intake valve apparatus and not the new for 1909 "valve operating mechanism" that is found on the loop frame models. At the end of production of the diamond frame models they may have "mixed and matched" available components and parts to build a cycle.

Again, all thoughts to ponder. Somethings we may never know or understand.

Les

[Grizz]

If its not too much trouble, some shots of the carb would help identify it if I ever come across one. I found two at davenport, but did not know if they were the right one.Thanks Phil

C.O. and others,

Attached are a couple of photos of my 1908 Indian, single, battery ignition, motor number 10XXX. The motor has the "hacksaw" mechanical intake valve attached as I purchased the cycle from the original owner in 1967. I had it running back then but it was not ever satifactory. Dick Ollhoff got it running last year and it runs very well now.

The "mechanical" intake valve is mentioned in the "Advance Catalog" for 1908 as being an option for both singles and twins for the 1908 line. It at also notes that "The valve, being operated mechanically always opens the same distance and at the proper time, there being no suction to be depended upon nor any varying springs to alter the proportion of the charge. This feature can readily be applied to all previous Indian models and at a slight cost."

In the regular catalog of the line of 1908 Indians, they note that the "Mechanical" valves, as used for 1908, are perfect in action and will be standard equipment". The catalog continues to explain the merits of the new improvement for their 1908 line. However, it also notes that "We will furnish as an option the automatic or suction valve".

The "Diamond" frame that had been their standard since the beginning was to continue into the 1909 line of Indian motorcycles. There were two (2) "diamond" frame models offered for sale in the 1909 catalog and five (5) models offered with the new "loop" frame. Obviously, 1909 was a transition year to the "loop" frame.

The 1908 and 1909 Indian sales catalogs are in the AMCA online library for reference. The 1908 "Advance" catalog is not. I received an original with the 1967 cycle purchase.

See page 39 of the AMCA Fall magazine article on the June, 2011, Rhinebeck Meet for another photo and a short article about of my Indian.

Still looking for a pair of 28" X 2 1/2" tires to replace the ones mounted on it now. The Coker tires are too wide and rub the front fork and really weren't manufactured for double clincher rims.

Grizz....If you need any additional photos, let me know.


Attachment 7599 Attachment 7600


Thanks C.O............Good memory!

[acemoto]

I have a extra1903 indian motor I would trade

[talbot-2]

If its not too much trouble, some shots of the carb would help identify it if I ever come across one. I found two at davenport, but did not know if they were the right one.Thanks Phil

Hope the photos below help.........


IMG_3043.jpg-----IMG_2778.jpg-----IMG_3042.jpg-----IMG_3041.jpg-----IMG_3040.jpg

1908 Indian original carburetor

[Grizz]

Thanks Les, great photos..... Phil