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Thread: Rhinebeck???

  1. #11
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    Though I have not studied the magazines printed judging disclaimer thoroughly, I have read it through once. They made a few changes in the wording which seems to be suitable for the machine owner and it cover the club from liabilities also. After just one read through, I've no issues with it. Paps

  2. #12
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    Jun 2001
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    Britluv! (and All!)

    I specifically asked: Are reproduction frames, top-ends, and such a problem with Triumphs? Hondas?

    Bad numbers should have always been docked, although there has never been a firm foundation for judging them.
    And there may never be!
    (Please refer to the Parkinglot Chatter thread on "Knucklehead restamp job")

    As far as this out-sider sees it, and I believe I reflect the masses who willfully continue to be outsiders,...

    The whole system stinks. Its full of personal agendas and subjective biases:
    When should one reproduction part acceptible upon a restored machine, and not another? Are you going to make up one new rule after another about the quality of reproductions? One company's are accepted, but anothers are docked for inferiority?

    That certainly takes the "good ol' boys club" to the next level.

    You guys better get your act together, or an AMCA award will mean about as much as my collection of "Rat Class" trophies.
    (From ads I see in "Walneck's", perhaps less!)

    I DO have suggestions, and I have already posted some, but I shall now wait until everyone's ears are south of their bowels.

    ....Cotten
    AMCA #776
    Dumpster Diver's Motto: Seek,... and Ye Shall Find!

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
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    Central Florida
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    Cotten, you seem to have a misperception that there's some "marque bias" built into the judging system. Not so. We'll disqualify anything with the same mis-attributes. "Who owns it," likewise, doesn't matter in the least. Chris understand it: hist Post #8, above, sums it up.
    If Prez Halter entered a bike in judging with funny numbers, it would be disqualified. I don't know where a self-titled "outsider" gets your information to develop these prejudices. Second hand, perhaps,. from malcontents? To be on this forum you have to be a paid-up AMCA member. Most of your business seems to come from members, for your first class Linkert floats. Perhaps if you came to meets and experienced judging, even participated in it, your eyes would be opened.
    In the recent past there have been some incidents of improper restamps being overlooked: note the '46 Harley "Senior First" going for "Winner's Circle" that was caught up and disqualified at Eustis. It had been shown through Junior, then Senior, to get as far as it did.
    It wouldn't matter to me, or to the other marque judges, if it was an Indian or a '60s Bridgestone 2-stroke. It's just a matter of what's valuable, and what shows up on the judging field, like Eric brought up.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sargehere View Post
    Cotten, .....
    I don't know where a self-titled "outsider" gets your information to develop these prejudices. Second hand, perhaps,. from malcontents? To be on this forum you have to be a paid-up AMCA member. Most of your business seems to come from members, for your first class Linkert floats. Perhaps if you came to meets and experienced judging, even participated in it, your eyes would be opened.
    In the recent past there have been some incidents of improper restamps being overlooked: note the '46 Harley "Senior First" going for "Winner's Circle" that was caught up and disqualified at Eustis. It had been shown through Junior, then Senior, to get as far as it did.
    It wouldn't matter to me, or to the other marque judges, if it was an Indian or a '60s Bridgestone 2-stroke. It's just a matter of what's valuable, and what shows up on the judging field, like Eric brought up.
    Sarge!

    Yes indeed, my "information" comes from my worldwide clientele, not the AMCA elite. They participate in AMCA events far more than I can ever hope to.
    I am in the "industry", not a hobbyist.
    Yet I must deal with the AMCA's "judgements" daily.

    I have always been outside of the judging system, studying its effects as objectively as possible, because an award used to mean something serious to my customers.

    The entire purpose of my posts are to bring bad news from outside, into the elite cliche.
    And I don't care who screams "Kill the Messenger", because it is the disgruntled who seek me out to preserve History, instead of destroying it. I am going with the flow, the AMCA is ignoring it.

    The AMCA judging system no longer fosters the preservation of vintage motorcycles.
    It has been perverted by its endless twists and turns of vanity dictums, unable to deal with the changing world of vintage motorcycling.

    Re-write the whole judging system from the ground up, or the crowning jewel of the AMCA will turn to paste.

    Everybody hates a stormcrow, huh.

    ....Cotten
    AMCA #776
    Dumpster Diver's Motto: Seek,... and Ye Shall Find!

  5. #15
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    399

    Default AMCA Judging

    Tom,
    You seem to be way off base, and getting more diverted by the minute on the criteria, and mission of AMCA Judging. The criteria is based on how the bike left the factory for the dealership. Period. We judge the bike, and only the bike, not the owner, or the brand. If the bike is entered as an original, un-restored, we allow the replacement of certain wearable & disposable items, ie; tires, belts, etc.... but those parts must be the best available, and reflect the period of manufacture.
    As for restored bikes, the goal here is to achieve an example that is correct enough to serve as a future reference of the machine in the future; As best an example possible to carry on the history is the desired outcome. The road to this goal is half the fun and agony for the owner/builder. The research, the hunt, the build, it all comes to a whole 'nuther level when trying to do our machines' history some justice. I know this personally, as I've stepped up from just maintaining patched together bar hoppers with bailing wire, and young stupidity, to the challenge of trying to do things right, and preserve our passions for the future. Maybe I'm just getting older?
    The AMCA recognizes the engine case and frame to be the "heart" of the machine. Try and build a bike around a repro engine, or bad number job, and forget it; as far as Winners Circle, AMCA judging is concerned. We all realize that some original cases may have a checkered history, and aren't worthy of this level of judged pedigree, but we don't discard the bike, or cast it aside. It is still eligible for all the chapter awards and recognitions. It's still an old bike, just not one that fits into this finite facet of our Club.
    I'm very pleased that you consider the AMCA elite, as it most certainly is. We, and our Judging Procedures have been chosen to be the technical inspectors for FIVA elegiblity via Hagerty Insurance, as soon as they instill their program here in North America. Our Judging standard will be the basis used to verify if a machine is worthy of their program. This may not sound like much to us here in the US right now, but it sure has helped other vintage enthusiasts, the world over. (with things like insurance, registration, and even use!)
    The rules for our judging are constantly being adjusted and tweaked for the betterment of our previously mentioned cause. There is bound to be some growing pains, and communication is liable to be lacking in some areas, just like it is when putting on road runs, and swap meets. The bottom line is about the machine though. Yes, certain repro parts are allowed, as long as they are the best that is available, and they don't consist of what we consider the 'Heart" of the Machine, they are usually acceptable (like your carb needles for example).
    For someone who makes a portion of their living via the AMCA, and it's members, I'm surprised you are so negative about it's practices. Judging pedigree, and thourough bred motorcycles has every important reason to be part of our ranks, as does promoting reliable rider machines for our Road Runs. We are now opening the door for younger generations, and bikes that previously had no place amongst our ranks by having the new custom culture class being exposed.
    But I realize that some people would still complain, even if you hanged them with a new rope.
    See ya in the breeze, or on the judging field, RF.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
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    Sarasota, Florida
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    Cotten, I respect your stand but I must confess that I have never understood where you're comming from. I think you should try to define what you mean by presevation and restoration.

    My application of preservation as it applies to antique motorcycles is: Slow down the aging process of paint and plated or bare metal with chemicals and good strorage. Replace missing pieces with correct year parts and hope to match patina. Unfortunately, I have never come close to owning an unrestored motorcycle. They are extreamly rare and have always been very expensive.

    Restoration is what I know because the bikes I come across are very rusty, have been "restored" by one or more previous owners, and missing 50% or more parts. There is never anything left to preserve. Unfortunately, I think this is the scenario for most of us. I think your argument would have held water in 1970 when there were 700 AMCA members, little or no demand for antique motorcycles, and a member philosophy that thought restoring an original paint bike was progressive. By the mid-80s the antique motorcycle hobby was very different and has been refined since. I have never seen or been exposed to the type of revisionism you claim is rampant in the AMCA judging system. I think you need to define and site example of what you mean.
    Eric Smith
    AMCA #886

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
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    There's an old saying:

    "You can lead a horse to water,
    but you better drink before it pees in it."

    Don't address me directly, and I shall post to this discussion no more.

    (That should make many of you more secure for a minute.
    After all, a restored to 'as it came from the factory' machine only represents a mythical ideal of a minute of History. The rest of genuine History went out in the wash, because an 'expert' said so.)

    ....Cotten
    AMCA #776
    Dumpster Diver's Motto: Seek,... and Ye Shall Find!

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Posts
    508

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sargehere View Post
    Cotten, you seem to have a misperception that there's some "marque bias" built into the judging system. Not so. We'll disqualify anything with the same mis-attributes. "Who owns it," likewise, doesn't matter in the least. Chris understand it: hist Post #8, above, sums it up.
    If Prez Halter entered a bike in judging with funny numbers, it would be disqualified. I don't know where a self-titled "outsider" gets your information to develop these prejudices. Second hand, perhaps,. from malcontents? To be on this forum you have to be a paid-up AMCA member. Most of your business seems to come from members, for your first class Linkert floats. Perhaps if you came to meets and experienced judging, even participated in it, your eyes would be opened.
    In the recent past there have been some incidents of improper restamps being overlooked: note the '46 Harley "Senior First" going for "Winner's Circle" that was caught up and disqualified at Eustis. It had been shown through Junior, then Senior, to get as far as it did.
    It wouldn't matter to me, or to the other marque judges, if it was an Indian or a '60s Bridgestone 2-stroke. It's just a matter of what's valuable, and what shows up on the judging field, like Eric brought up.
    Gerry
    you say there are misperceptions about marque bias: when all this was discussed by the judging committee, the only makes that were brought up were HD and Indian. I tried to remind everyone that the rules MUST consider all makes that we judge. but it fell on deaf ears and a chart was shown with only HD numbers on it.
    you suggest that Cotton should stay for judging and maybe even participate. where have you been since 1992??
    the records show that since 1992 you NEVER had a bike judged and you only judged in 2009 at the Sunshine meet where you judged 4 bikes.
    I guess this makes you an "apprentice" judge.
    Last edited by kval; 05-29-2010 at 05:35 PM.
    Kevin Valentine 13
    EX-Chief Judge

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
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    Cotten, I guess I'll have to remain in the dark, so perhaps we can agree to disagree. It's not really that big of a deal to me anyway. I love to noodle around with old bikes and that will be my fate till I die. I have always found it funny how people that have so much in common (hobbies, politics, sex, music, etc.) have so much to disagree about. We humans are the weirdest things on earth.

    Kevin, you should not be using privledged information in an effort to demean someone who has a different opinion.
    Eric Smith
    AMCA #886

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
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    508

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    Quote Originally Posted by exeric View Post
    Kevin, you should not be using privledged information in an effort to demean someone who has a different opinion.
    Eric
    that is not "privileged information" it is part of the judging file which is "public information" I did not demean him I just wanted to know how he can give advice when he just started judging himself.
    Kevin Valentine 13
    EX-Chief Judge

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