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Thread: Save Our Judging

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Sarasota, Florida
    Posts
    4,162

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    2wheels; I've had 5 bikes judged and I have been an assistant judge. I've been in this club since the mid 70s (i.e. 35 years). I think Kevin and Robin did a fantastic job with the administrative chores of overseeing the judging process. However, the actual judging is done by field judges and it is THEIR knowledge that judging depends on. The Chief and Assistant Judge need to be good administrators; who's primary function is to make things run smoothly. I'm not going to get into the politics of what is going on because I probably know as little about it as you do, 2wheels. Also, your hearsay comments about Rocky were out of line.
    Eric Smith
    AMCA #886

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Posts
    31

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    Quote Originally Posted by exeric View Post
    2wheels; I've had 5 bikes judged and I have been an assistant judge. I've been in this club since the mid 70s (i.e. 35 years). I think Kevin and Robin did a fantastic job with the administrative chores of overseeing the judging process. However, the actual judging is done by field judges and it is THEIR knowledge that judging depends on. The Chief and Assistant Judge need to be good administrators; who's primary function is to make things run smoothly. I'm not going to get into the politics of what is going on because I probably know as little about it as you do, 2wheels. Also, your hearsay comments about Rocky were out of line.
    Eric
    I have not been in the club as long as you, but in the 10 years I have been in, it was because of Kevin and Robin that I started to have my bikes judged. when they started to let people on the field when judging was going on it made it much more interesting. you could listen and learn how things were done. this caused me to enter my bike(and get a few more). from what I observed on the field Kevin did most of the administrative work and Robin was a bottomless pit of knowledge. also I was near the action when Rocky went off on that guy near his vending spot(not very pretty) missed Friday night at the firehouse, but was told that was not a very good thing either
    Last edited by speedracer; 04-30-2010 at 08:55 AM.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,316

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    Dear Robin, it was nice to say hello to you at Oley, and I'll be at Denton if you want to talk some more. Perhaps I can say a few words about my take on judging developments, as you have again mentioned my name in your posting.

    First the Judging Committee is the same one you and Kevin worked with, with the addition of me. All the important issues go to a vote, and I'm just one among ten.

    Likewise, you'll see when the minutes are published that most of the Board decisions on judging at Eustis went through with a 9-1 majority. The Board does not want to see any more bikes with bad numbers get AMCA judging awards, nor bikes made up mostly of replica parts. This may be why the Club has now had to protect itself from lawsuits with the new judging disclaimer.

    The 'inexperienced' judges you are complaining about are the same ones you worked with before. The new Chief Judge has given credit to you and Kevin for training him, and said he plans to spend more time backing up the Field Judges and managing the administration, and I'm OK with this.

    So you need to acknowledge you are unlikely to be reinstated, and you haven't shown up for work at the last two National Meets. The placards, Tee shirts, and protests through shills are unbecoming to someone of your skills and knowledge. How about writing down your knowledge on Indians, Japanese, and as-raced competition bikes so that other Club members can benefit from it? It's not about you and me, but about the Club membership and having fun with old bikes. We need to move on and together support the new AMCA judging system. Best regards.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Central Florida, USA
    Posts
    92

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    Quote Originally Posted by speedracer View Post
    Eric
    ......when they started to let people on the field when judging was going on it made it much more interesting. you could listen and learn how things were done.......
    Am I missing something here? In the past, I was told that the owner was "allowed" and requested to be on the field in case the judges had questions. Has that changed? I hope NOT!

    That worked two ways. It was invaluable to me to be able to listen as the judging team critiqued my bike. I was also graciously allowed to add input to keep the confusion to a minimum when the judges looked at the previous sheets and didn't understand what was written (too cryptic).

    I joined this club solely because of the tremendous KNOWLEDGE BASE within the judging teams. My goal was the same as the club, to represent exactly what the factory offered. To me, correctly restoring a bike is a challenge beyond belief. But rewarding well beyond that. Maybe not to some but I take personal pride in the "fight to find the truth". Being on the field was invaluable-where else can I get the information?.

    If it has in fact changed, are the judging teams going to stick around after the awards and explain thier decisions? In what limited meets I have entered, good luck. Sunday afternoon? Time to go!

    I would look in my handbook to see what the policy is but....hey, guess what? After Eustis, it is pretty much outdated. I realize the judging aspect of the club is in transition, but come on guys! So, are we still going to be allowed on the field?

    Wayne Feltham #4329

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Posts
    508

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    Quote Originally Posted by felthamw View Post
    Am I missing something here? In the past, I was told that the owner was "allowed" and requested to be on the field in case the judges had questions. Has that changed? I hope NOT!

    That worked two ways. It was invaluable to me to be able to listen as the judging team critiqued my bike. I was also graciously allowed to add input to keep the confusion to a minimum when the judges looked at the previous sheets and didn't understand what was written (too cryptic). Wayne Feltham #4329
    Wayne
    before Robin and I took over, the judging field was locked down when judging started. we opened the field for owners and spectators, feeling that it would help people understand how things were done and make it a more friendly atmosphere
    Kevin Valentine 13
    EX-Chief Judge

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Posts
    245

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    Wayne.
    Allowing the owners on the judging field has benefited both the owners and judges there are no plans to change this.
    Pete Reeves 860

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Central Florida, USA
    Posts
    92

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    Wheewwwwwww.......
    I'm good with that! How the heck do we learn if we can't be interactive?
    See ya at the "Southern"..........
    soon, very soon!
    I'm ready!
    Wayne #4329

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Tully, NY
    Posts
    73

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    What is time for is to let the AMCA members vote on who runs our club. That would include president, VP, Chief Judge and all other positions. If this was the way the positions were filled this type of removal of the chief judge and assistant would and could not have happened. When this happens we will again have a good club. We may even get a DETAILED accounting of where all our funds are spent.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    149

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Slocombe View Post
    Dear Robin, it was nice to say hello to you at Oley, and I'll be at Denton if you want to talk some more. Perhaps I can say a few words about my take on judging developments, as you have again mentioned my name in your posting.

    First the Judging Committee is the same one you and Kevin worked with, with the addition of me. All the important issues go to a vote, and I'm just one among ten.

    Likewise, you'll see when the minutes are published that most of the Board decisions on judging at Eustis went through with a 9-1 majority. The Board does not want to see any more bikes with bad numbers get AMCA judging awards, nor bikes made up mostly of replica parts. This may be why the Club has now had to protect itself from lawsuits with the new judging disclaimer.

    The 'inexperienced' judges you are complaining about are the same ones you worked with before. The new Chief Judge has given credit to you and Kevin for training him, and said he plans to spend more time backing up the Field Judges and managing the administration, and I'm OK with this.

    So you need to acknowledge you are unlikely to be reinstated, and you haven't shown up for work at the last two National Meets. The placards, Tee shirts, and protests through shills are unbecoming to someone of your skills and knowledge. How about writing down your knowledge on Indians, Japanese, and as-raced competition bikes so that other Club members can benefit from it? It's not about you and me, but about the Club membership and having fun with old bikes. We need to move on and together support the new AMCA judging system. Best regards.
    Steve:

    Yes, I remember seeing you at Oley and saying hello to you. I try to always greet people instead of snubbing them like our new apprentice chief judge did to me in Daytona quite a few times throughout bike week. I just wasn't brought up that way.

    To clarify the judging committee, I'm not sure which committee you're speaking of. The original judging committee that was started years ago was never disbanded. We didn't have that many formal meetings in the last year or so because everything was running fairly smoothly. But quite often if we had questions or needed others' opinions on additions or changes we always contacted as many members as possible, usually at a meet, there always has been quite a few of them present at the meets. Sometimes we used phone conversations. Or are you talking about the unapproved committee that you started in October, without Kevin's knowledge and with Kevin being out of town. I tried to stop you several times until Kevin came back to town and you wouldn't stop. So I contacted Rocky several times, using proper procedures to stop you, since you did not listen to or respect the Assistant Chief Judge's authority asking you to stop your committee. So even then you had no respect for the Chief Judge and the Assistant Chief Judge. Kevin and I did try to work with this committee. There are a lot of good people with a lot of good knowledge on this committee. So, I still don't know what you mean about the same committee with the addition of you, it doesn't make any sense. You say you're only one vote in ten, but you're on the board of directors, RedFred is on the board of directors and instead of Rocky stopping the committee, he took over the committee, made it a legal committee and chaired the committee. That to me three board votes against Kevin's one, just on the committee. At least one of the votes that the committee voted on before Eustis, that you did not agree with, you and RedFred used your board positions to sway the board to change the vote.

    At our judging committee meeting held at Eustis, we all agreed on the bad number jobs that Rocky presented us with. I don't feel bad numbers should be allowed either, I am not against having a rule against bad numbers, it just nees to be clarified. I do not agree with your overall view, with one blanket rule for all machines and all numbers, especially without enough documentation, it is not correct and the loose use of the words bad numbers is not completely and fairly defined.

    You mention the disclaimer. Yes you're right, I do not like the disclaimer or agree with it, as I told you in Eustis, that most of our members wouldn't agree with it either. It is written too intimidating. And the fact that the best and the most stringent motorcycle juding in the world is not being termed worthless. The disclaimer is also in total contradiction to our club flyers. Our flyers say that one of the benefits of being an AMCA member is having your bike judged and increasing it's value. The disclaimer is not only terming our bikes worthless, it's also saying that our judges aren't good enough to judge them correctly.

    Yes, I'm sure the minutes are going to show that the board voted the judging committee's rules into effect. I guess speaking of the board that votes itself in to office and the same board members which most don't know anything about the judging or care anything about the judging. A lot of these are still the ones that used to sit in board meetings for hours and hours and hours hearing complaining from members about the previous judging administration under Peter Heinz. Also how little of this they heard and had to deal with when the system was running smooth under Kevin and I. Rocky himself had told me many times that he hated the judging and he didn't even see why we needed it. I think it's funny that the first two times that I've seen him on the judging field were Eustis and Oley. And he has never handed out our prestigious awards like all the previous presidents have done.

    The inexperienced judges I'm complaining about are NOT our field judges, national deputies or our senior judges. The inexperienced judges I'm referring to is the one at the top, our new apprentice chief judge, although most of our judges are inexperienced compared to my 35 years of experience in judging motorcycles for our membeship and our club, along with several other motorcycle clubs. The person currently holding the position of chief judge has NEVER judged a motorcycle at an AMCA national meet as a field judge, he has only helped as an apprentice on 57 motorcycles at 10 meets since 2008. I know this because Kevin and I handed him his judges card at the awards ceremony after the judging at Davenport. I thank him for giving me credit in training him, I had no idea I was that good of a teacher, to actually train someone in less than 2 years to surpass me and attain the position that I've been striving for all my life. And the position Rocky promised to me in writing in November. You mention that he plans to spend more time backing up the Field Judges and managing the administration, and you're OK with this, so, it's ok with you that he has virtually no judging background but is holding the position of chief judge. AND BEFORE YOU OR ANYONE ELSE TRIES TO SAY THAT THE CHIEF JUDGE'S JOB IS AN ADMINISTRATIVE POSITION AND NOT A JUDGES POSITION, let's look back to when that started, it started with Peter Heinz. We had many more years of this club having a Chief Judge that WAS a judge than we did having a Chief Judge that was an administrator. The name Chief Judge means Chief Judge, not chief administrator.

    You said I need to realize I'm unlikely to be reinstated, is this your opinion, the president's opinion, the board's opinion or who's. I know it's not the opinion of the hundreds of members and judges that have spoken with me. And it surely can't be my experience, knowledge, honesty and all my years of dedication to our members to make their bikes more correct and more enjoyable and to also make them run the way they were intended to.

    You said I haven't shown up for work at two national meets. How can you be so arrogant as to make this statement. I took you for having more credibility than this. I was in the lobby when Rocky blew up and fired Kevin after the board meeting. I witnessed Rocky screaming and hollering and swearing and dancing around like a prize fighter wanting to fight Kevin, so, my boss was fired. I went to the meet Saturday morning, it was a cold miserable rainy day, I stayed in my booth all day, and talked to the few people that were mingling around that day. NO ONE FROM THE BOARD, NOT THE PRESIDENT, YOURSELF, OR ANY OTHER BOARD MEMBER had the courtesy or common decency to let me know if I still had a job. No one. So I figured I didn't have a job either. So I didn't show up for work because I didn't think I had a job. Oley is different. I do not agree with who the chief judge is, I do not agree with your overall power of the board and the judging system and I do not feel comfortable with a lot of these new non-historically correct rules and I'm not going to be the one shoving them down our members throats when I don't agree with them. I hate to keep bringing up my years of experience, but Kevin and I did keep fairly good records of the judging system. Since 1992 I've judged at 126 meets and 1358 motorcycles, that's only since 1992, we didn't keep records before that, so that doesn't include from the 70's up till 1992. Since 1998 you've judged at 39 meets and 159 motorcycles.

    (MORE TO COME, EACH POST IS LIMITED TO 10,000 CHARACTERS)

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    149

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    As far as the placards, there was only one sign that I made up and put on my father's racer explaining my disagreement of the changing of the way w judge competition machines. We judged them by the rules that they were allowed to be raced with in their time period, which I explained in detail to the new judging committee. The majority of the committee kept saying they didn't understand. Here in the United States, it's still freedom of speech.

    As far as the t-shirts, these were Biketoberfest 2001 t-shirts, featuring our use of motorcycles by our military during WWII wth American flags. The slogan said "Paybacks are a bitch", talking about the bombing of the trade center in NYC.

    You said, protests through shills are unbecoming to someone of my skills and knowledge. I think it's very unbecoming on your part to even think I had to ask people to talk to you and the new apprentice chief judge. You don't give our membership and judges enough credit. You can ask quite a few people that were in Eustis, I said the members and the judges will not tolerate a lot of these bogus rules, a disclaimer telling them their bike is worthless and the controlling judging staff with no regard for our members, some being self-appointed, some wrongly appointed by our president that never cared for the judging system. Remember, I came up through the ranks, I earned my position.

    Yes, I would like to write books, so my years of expertise and collected knowledge can be preserved for future generations. Yes, I would like to write books and charge people for them like you do. But I haven't had time to compose these books, with working on motoryclces every day for a living, answering the phone calls, letters and emails, going to motorcycle events (and answering more questions there throughout the meet), plus on the judging field and even after the judging is over. I have always been the last one off the judging field answering the people's questions, helping the members and sharing my knowledge as much as possible for free. Maybe that's why I'm not wealthy, but I have a lot of friends all over the world, who show me respect. Unlike the way you treated me in the board room when I was granted by ten minutes to speak at the board meeting. Every other board member except you moved their chairs so they could face me while I spoke in the front of the room. You faced the wall 90 degrees from me and stayed in that position looking down at the table or your paperwork in front of you or at the wall, with no sign of respect for me at all, not even one glance in my direction.

    It seems to me that a lot of this is about you and me. From what I see, you seem to be running the whole AMCA almost single handedly, you're a part of everything that's going on. I guess I'm not part of your plan. What I should do is charge you for the time that you've made me waste defending my integrity and years of dedication that I've given to our AMCA members and our club. Instead of being able to use my time productively helping our members through my knowledge and judging abilities to continue to improve the best motorcycle judging the world has ever known and not letting it be destroyed by wankers.

    Your post was so wrong on so many points. You just don't get it.

    I'm also not the one that started the petition about open elections for the AMCA starting in 2011. Many of members that weren't at Oley might not have heard about the petition. If you belong to a chapter, check with your chapter president, they will be receiving one in the mail.

    So before you try to put blame on me, think back to October when you started the unauthorized judging committee.

    Robin Markey
    Former Assistant Chief Judge

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