Hostile Takeover

[Robin-M]

Hello, A lot of you people know me, this is Robin Markey, I was the Assistant Chief Judge till the end of bike week when I was forced out of my position.

I've been involved in the AMCA judging system for approximately 35 years, from the Doc Patt days till the present. This has been a very large part of my life, growing up in an Indian, Royal Enfield and Honda shop and most of my life has been riding, repairing, restoring and judging. I am known throughout the world for my Indian and vintage Honda knowledge. I have been sharing my knowledge with our AMCA members and countless other people throughout the world. I have always tried to do my best to help the antique and vintage motorcycle world.

Our AMCA judging system, under Kevin and my leadership, was running very smoothly. But last year we overturned one of our marque experts judgment calls because the owner presented us with factory documentation, like our rules call for. This created a problem with several judges, two of which are board members. Approximately 5 months ago an improper judging committee was formed by them, disregarding AMCA Policies and Procedures. I tried to stop this illigitmate committee following the proper procedures by contacting the president. I tried several times with phone call directly to the president. But these two board members used their board positions and along with the president created a legitimate committee. So instead of our president reprimanding them for starting an improper committee he awarded them with a legitimate committee. It seemed from the beginning the whole purpose of this committee was to get rid of Kevin and myself. All this because of these two disgruntled board members. The president could have stopped this takeover at this time, but he choose not to.

All the new proposed rule changes that this new committee is trying to put into effect is going to ruin the most prestigious motorcycle judging in the world. They are dumbing down the system and trying to erase one of the largest parts of motorcyclling history by refusing to judge competition machines because they don't understand how to judge them. They do not feel that they deserve our top trophies. Being an Indian person this really upsets me because no Indian Sport Scouts, except the 50 648's, would be eligible for our top judging under their new rule changes.

Another large problem they are creating is with serial numbers. The new people in charge, lack the knowledge, common sense and experience of motorcycles to properly inforce their new quest to disqualify motorcycles. Most of the new people in charge have knowledge on all the same brand of motorcycle.

This judging committee, from the beginning, was a total farce. The president and the two board members that were in charge and were designing the new rules and changes to existing rules did not even have a clue of the old rules and even tried to make new rules that were exactly the same as the old rules. Kevin had to mail out judging handbooks so they knew what rules were in effect. Keep in mind, Kevin nor I, were able to run this committee. The president was supposed to be in charge, but anyone that knows the president of the AMCA knows his disrespect and disregard for our judging system. He's also the first president of the AMCA that never gave the awards out at the trophy presentation. I know this always meant something to me, being presented a trophy and shaking hands with the president.

After 5 months and over 500 emails and almost as many hours spent trying to work with this new committee, I could tell I was not part of their agenda. Most of the time my motorcycle judging knowledge and integrity were challenged or I was totally ignored. This email committee was not working, the written word can be interpreted too many ways. I also suggested that we wait till we have a face to face meeting to finalize and vote on these delicate decisions, but wasn't heard. Then we were told in January that everything we voted on so far was to be okayed during the AMCA Board of Directors teleconference call in January, so these new rules could be put into effect and used at Eustis without the notification of our membership. I protested but it didn't do any good. So I sent a 5 page letter to all board members, to either get rid of this committee or else postpone this to a face to face board meeting. Their decision was to postpone till Eustis. At this time, I also asked to speak at the board meeting. More topics were voted on by the committee before Eustis and we were asked to be at a judging committee meeting on Thursday evening at Eustis. Although not everyone was at the meeting I thought the meeting went fairly smooth. It seemed like everyone was on the same page. Most of us gave our opinions and evaluations on several subjects. Everyone agreed the face to face meeting worked great for final decisions on topics.

But I still had my appointment to talk at the board meeting about my concerns on this bogus committee. Right as I was to walk into the board meeting to give my presentation, I asked the president several straight forward questions, which he gave me answers to. I didn't know it at the time, but these ended up to be untruths. So I did not give my complete presentation, since I felt things were going better, and I still had hopes for our judging system to remain the best in the world. But instead the two board members that started this committee and the president used the board positions to go forward with their agenda, totally disregarding what Kevin and myself had to say.

(more coming on next post)

[Robin-M]

With all the disrespect shown towards Kevin and myself, Kevin got so discouraged, he walked out of the board meeting. Later he was fired by the president. I witnessed this scene in the lobby of the hotel at 1:30 in the morning. That's another story. The board meeting was friday night. Saturday was a miserable rainy day, very few of the venders were open, the girls went shopping. I stayed in my vending spot all day talking and helping guys with their bikes answering judging questions, etc, like I always do. Not the president or any of the board members had the common courtesy or decency to come and speak to me, and I felt it was in their place to come to me. At this point, since Kevin was my boss and I was appointed by him, I thought that I was also fired. So I slept in Sunday morning. That was different!!!! Later in the morning when I was packing my trailer to head to Daytona, one of the judges/board members came up to me and said he missed me this morning and he'll miss me at the judging. I looked at him and asked what he meant, I didn't quit or resign. Then I asked - do I still have a job because no one came to talk to me? About 20 minutes later, the president and several board members came in my trailer and finally told me that I was not fired and I could still be the Assistant Chief Judge as long as I work under the new chief judge and abided by all these new changes and anything else the committee came up with. I then asked if I wasn't fired, shouldn't I move into the Chief judge's position? That's when I was told there was a new Chief judge. When I asked who the new chief judge was, I was astonished. Last year he was still an apprentice judge, but showed a lot of promise, now I'm told he's the new chief judge. I know I'm a damn good teacher, but I didn't know I was good. I was told by the president that I could still retain my position as assistant chief judge if I would work with the new chief judge and this farce of a committee. I told the president, that with my years of experience how about if I be the new chief judge and also be in charge of the committee. I was told this was not going to happen. I was given to the end of bike week to make my decision. The whole time the president was in my trailer giving me this ultimatum, he never once looked at me in the face or showed me any eye contact. This is insulting. Early Wednesday morning at the All American Indian Club breakfast, which they let anyone attend, the new chief judge and his wife which I know and have known for several years walked past me several times, totally ignoring me. Kevin and I were eating breakfast sitting beside each other, the new chief judge talked to Kevin, then sat down on the other side of Kevin, right across from me, never addressed me, never made eye contact, this was also insulting. Then again Friday at Deland at the motorcycle auction, the new chief judge and his wife did exactly the same thing again. At this point I knew that keeping my position would have been futile. Saturday morning, while riding to the Racing Memorial on the beach to view the plaques of a good many of my friends that are no longer with us, I spotted the president in his trailer. So I turned around and went back and informed the president that I cannot accept his ultimatum, but would be glad to be the chief judge and in charge. So I was replaced.

Now I'm asking for the membership's help. We need to change things before this gets too out of hand. There are so many things going wrong with the AMCA right now, financial, museum leaving Hershey and judging to mention a few. Our organization is being run by a very limited number of people. Basically one board member seems to be in charge or a part of every aspect of our club. Residing on almost every committee plus being the main person overthrowing the judging system. I think it's time for us as the membership to address this problem and demand things to be changed. I feel that it's time for the good-ole-boy mentality to be gotten rid of. The membership deserves to have a board that works for them and that doesn't allow for this type of a takeover. It has been mentioned for years that the membership should have a say on who our board of director are and we should be allowed to attend board meetings. This club is too large and worldwide to be run a couple incompetent board members. You know the type, the ones that won't say a word to your face but will continually degrade you on email.

Please help and make our club and our judging fun again and to benefit our members and our love for antique motorcycles. Write to the editor Write to the president. Write to the board.

Many of our top judges and marque experts are not judging in protest of this hostile takeover. There is also people that didn't and won't put their bikes in the judging until there's competent judges and the integrity comes back to our judging system. We can't let the most prestigious motorcycle judging in the world turn into a "shine is fine", first - second - third, style judging.

For anyone that made it through my long letter - thank you,
Robin Markey
former Assistant Chief Judge - 35 years experience

[Red Fred]

Hi Robin,
I hear you loud & clear, and I realize how helpful and knowledgeble you have been for myself, and everyone in the Club. You have helped me countless times with my own restorations, and coached us all on the Judging Field for years. So has Kevin. In fact, Kevin actually got me into all this.
I wasn't around, or involved when the two questionalbe bikes got DQed, then judged, then DQed again. I understand that Harley only stated that the numbers were of the era of manufacture, but couldn't vouch for the font and style of the stampings. From all the marque experts that I have heard review this case, it was a number job, on a repro set of cases. I've never seen the bikes, nor was even aware of the controversy until it was brought up after it bounced in & out of judging. This is what caused an internal audit, so to speak. Steve Slocombe initiated a new Judging Committee, as the old one was defunct (I was on it for years, and there was no activity, at least that I was made aware of, or any of the other members).
The new Committee idea gained momentum very quickly, as many of us are energetic for some improvements. Prez Rocky took command of the Committee so as to keep it under our by-laws. It was a very difficult struggle, as you know, wading through a panel of members, strictly by email. We started off with some default, simple issues, just to test the system, get used to the discussion of topics, and the actual on-line, voting process. We did cover some good ground however, and some changes were voted in. Not everyone was happy with all the outcomes, and some things were taken personally. I feel that we all were trying to benefit the good of the Club.
I realize that the new non-factory competition rule hit a nerve with you. It was felt that since the Club bases our judging criteria on how the machines came from the factory, then modified bikes set up for racing aren't eligable. Factory competition machines would of course be judged under the standard rules, as they came from the factory.
It was never discounted that these non-factory machines are less historic, or important, they just didn't come from the factory as they raced, and therefore needed a new avenue to be judged. We just didn't want to ball them up with Period Modifieds (by the way Kevin & Robin, thank you so much for recognizing, and creating a place for Period Modifieds).
It was voted and passed by the Committee to create a separate judging class for these non-factory competition machines. A different sheet to judge them by, as the standard form doesn't really apply with it's catagories for headlights, brakes, horn, etc..... The guidelines for the non-factory racers aren't ironed out yet by the sub-committee that was formed to do this, but it will be along the lines that the machine must be as it was raced within 5 years of so of it's manufacture, or known AMA race history (this will keep the modern disc brakes, and alum rims off of the period Sport Scouts). I know that you are very sensitive to the race bikes, especially with your families history, and your Dad's racer in full view of your showroom every day. I don't think the new Judging catagory lessens the stigma of these machines though.
You and I have talked before, during, and after Florida. You know that you are respected and admired as one of the most knowlegable Marque specialists out there for Indian & Honda. The Judging Committee is still in action, trying to make our system more black & white with factual data as a back up, not just one persons memory, or recollection. It's a huge undertaking, and a lot of work, but something has to be recorded for future generations after some of us old guys are gone.
Rest assured that everyone on the Judging Committee is very enthusiastic about improving our systems, and doing everything for the good of the Club. We have Steve Dawdy, Don Dzurak, Walt Curro, Marty Megregian, myself, Peter Reeves, Bruce Linsday, Steve Slocombe, Don Spence, and Dave Lash. Everyone of these guys is dedicated, just as you are.
I, myself, am sorry that things didn't work out for you. I hope I can rely on you and your knowledge in the future, and that we can work together again very soon.

All the best Robin,
RF.

[Chris Haynes]

Robin,
Just let us know what we can do to help. You have my phone number.

[silentgreyfello]

Holy crapola, I have never seen so much turmoil as we have had under Rocky's guidance, (or lack thereof). This guy may be a great guy, I don't know him. But in the last year it has become obvious that he is in over his head. The examples coming to mind are the museum debacle, insulting people on this forum, being downright arrogant at the meet, and now letting two top judges escape because of his ego, not to mention allegedly lying to Robin.

Is there some method for ousting him? Petition? Anyone know the bylaws? I would be happy to sign on the petition. I think the club needs someone that has a cool demeanor and people skills without an agenda or inflated ego. Rocky is failing at all of these. I know the job is probably thankless with about the only benefit being a free ride to each meet, but come on already, it is time for a new direction before he steers us off of a cliff!

Rocky, if you are reading this thread (I doubt it), please, in the best interest of the club, step aside.

Jim Hoffman
AMCA 3507

[Paps]

Replacing a senior judge with a novice judge acting as a senior judge, pretty much speaks for itself. Demanding extensive explanation from the top down is critical to the lower membership. Not hearing satisfying explanation from the top down could lead to a future dues ban by national and global membership. Organizations do not function well without revenue. Paps

[INLINE4NUT]

Every story has two sides but Ill have to say Robin has always treated me with the utmust respect ,I think things have gotten out of hand with the club but has been for much longer than most would like to admit !!!
Robin please Name these people you talk about its always easier to say in person to someone" I heard this about you and I want to hear your side of the story"
RedFred on of the people you mention as on the judging commintee would not give me the time of day until he knew I had a part he wanted !!! Needless to say I find this to be the "Norm witrh the club instead of the exception !!!
I agree with Robin 100% in this issue and believe the club has changed from when I first joined in 1978, It seems to be more about MONEY than love of old Motorcycles and ridding which Im sorry to say turns my stomach!!!!
Im sure when cooler minds prevail things can get worked out and be of benifit for all !!
We dont need to reinvent the club we just need to get our heads out of our A$$es !!

[fillibuster]

Rocky hasn't said much here, but I have to bet that he now knows "which end of the hog eats the cabbage"; it's the opposite end of the dirty end he's had to work with on this issue. I'm not surprised that his face got soiled a little, or that he may have failed to remain a perfect gentleman. I (personally) must forgive him for being human, and that extends to all who serve on the board, and in committees. They sure as heck aren't going to please everybody, and odds are that there will be more public dissent than satisfaction. As the media have done in governmental politics, this forum has done the same to our club. Not that that's so bad, it's just that the dirty end of the hog seems to get the most attention. Worse, it seems that the rules get dirtier too, and our demeanor slides out of bounds.

I don't think we can learn our best lessons from this by radically changing everything in sight, including our leadership positions. Revolutions are messy. It appears that rule changes are too. No doubt, a slow sweat may be frustrating, but allows time for the real and most problematic issues to surface, while lesser problems either dissolve or evolve into constants that can be dealt with effectively and quickly once other fogs clear.

I'd have to bet that if all involved were ordered to spend a year on these changes, we'd all be more satisfied with the results. .. or less concerned, maybe.

As for the future, nothing is permanent, and that must include our judging rules. So it ain't over yet.

[Sargehere]

In almost forty years in the AMCA, I've never seen the club without something being fought over, from end-to-end: bowsprit to fantail, gunwale to gunwale. Now, it's the way that the recent changes were arrived at, but I think the judging changes made are good ones. There's no reason to put off joining. It's only a little ripple on the surface of a constantly-evolving pond. The AMCA isn't going away, and most of the blood from this round is already on the planks of the deck.

What's being complained about is the method used to reach this point, so that won't affect the eventual outcome. As I prefaced my initial report on the new system that I had just experienced at Eustis, I wasn't involved in the process, and had no idea how it had been arrived at, but it was presented as a done-deal, already in place, and that was good enuf for me. It was a new beginning, and I think that's what everyone will finally have to realize.

The original U.S. Constitutional Convention, 1787, if anyone remembers their history, was an "ad hoc" committee. Because it was called in an emergency (the "confederation" rules they'd adopted a few years earlier obviously weren't working) and many of the same men who'd drafted the Declaration of Independence were still alive, and agreed, it was convened with no rules, completely outside of the mechanisms of government then in place. They worked out something wondrous, though not perfect, that's endured now for more than two centuries. Considering how well it has served since, we can't rule out Divine intervention, in that case.
The framers knew, Most of all, that you can't "perfect" human beings and make them all march in lock-step, like the earlier and later Totalitarians (today called "Progressives") have tried, and failed at, so you give "We The People" a tolerable framework in which to function, and all of the details will be worked out over time. It has to be recognized that the revolution never ends.

The way Robin Markey reports he was treated in all of the club politics reeks. Robin has dedicated much of his life to the betterment of The Antique Motorcycle Club of America. (I used to judge decades ago, in the 80s, at least, with Robin under the old "best restored, second best restored, most-unique bike-at-the-meet" rules under Chief Judge Doc Patt; we looked at every bike, but Robin knew the Indians, and I chimed in on the Harleys, and with a few other field judges we went from bike-to-bike). But the club BOD has always had a certain social ineptitude when it came to "human resources." They could all stand a course in "Emily Post," if you know what I mean.

It boils down to the club being a bunch of bikers, not (primarily) business professionals or college administrators (not that they are capable of the ability to perform major changes in the course of their organizations without stepping on a few toes and bruising egos, either!) But this change was due, a changing of the guard, in light of changing economic and technological conditions affecting the club.
I think change was due, if for no other reason than needing a fresh start in light of the changing generations and exploding interest in the few genuine old motorcycles left being found in the barns (most, twenty to thirty years old, as it has always been). A more detailed rule on what is and isn't acceptable in the realm of "reproduction parts" was due. The digital CAD-CAM age is colliding with the steam-locomotive technology most of our bikes came out of, and with the broaching tidal wave of people willing to counterfeit anything needed to be addressed more thoughtfully than it has been, to date.
The requirement that bikes be started "for the judges" has, as Robin Markey said, always been on the books, but it has been so ignored, for years, that it was welcomed as "new," and a "good idea" at and after Eustis! Years ago, this rule slipped, and it became acceptable if this or that judge on a team vouched that he had seen a given bike started up in the course of the meet; sometimes. And I am sure, many "non-runners" got through; sometimes depending solely upon the reputation or standing in the club of the owner of the particular bike.
Now, every single entry is asked to be started upon it being pushed on to the judging field, if it doesn't arrive there under its own power. Period. It got a special headlight sticker from a judge assigned to that task at Eustis. Two bikes that would have been judged were DQ's at Eustis when the owners huffed and puffed, but couldn't get them to aspirate on their own.
I really like the new rules on "as it left the factory the first time," and DQ for funny numbers. It's a recent phenomenon, given the increasing rarity of raw material in the earlier classes, that old time "number jobs" are being pulled out from the dark recesses, back in the back under benches where they've laid for years, and are getting new lives with heli-arc, files and media-blasting cabinets. But, so far, the stamps used, while tricky, haven't cut the mustard with a marque specialist who knows what he's looking for.
That knowledge will have to be expanded, until, no doubt, the stamps will get better. But then, a certain goal will also have been accomplished: restoration that is "undetectable." It is a kind of conundrum. Whether it is the number that graced the motor case when it left the factory the first time, it will at least have to look like it, weathering all close examination. We can't leave anything more accurate to our descendents.
That's still the bottom line. We can only judge what we can see.
--Gerry "Sarge" Lyons, AMC member #607.

[Edd]

I still say none of this could or would have happened if:

1. We the membership voted on who runs our club. Other larger clubs do it every year. Just check the BMWMOA they have over 30,000 members and all positions are voted on. Some people say this would lead to a popularity contest. Well, it is just that now with only 10 or 12 people doing it. Some say it has worked for 50 years why change it. This does not mean it has always been the best for all the members.

2. If we the membership could attend meetings. (Without having to write a letter for an invitation.)

3. If we the membership have a say on what we spend our money on for expensive items.

4. If we the membership could see a complete line by line financial report. (It is so easy to do this kind of report today with everything on a computer.)

The membership deserves to be informed to everything that goes on in OUR club.

Now is the time to make these necessary changes before it divides our club more.

Ed Glasgow
#2053