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Thread: Knuckle Jug Date Codes

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
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    Upstate NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perry Ruiter View Post
    Yup. Found it right after Chris mentioned it. Not cheap. I'm watching it.
    Rob Sigond
    AMCA # 1811

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
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    I have seen points deducted because of changes in the casting that happened through the years and for changes relating to the position style or lack of a casting mark.

    I have never seen judges deduct points from a bike because of a casting date code.
    Although itís nice to have all the codes from the correct period on your bike, it should not be a judging requirement

    I personally feel the date code should be ignored when judging Perhaps Kevin (our chief judge) can make a ruling on this to prevent any controversy when bikes are judged?

    Pete Reeves 860

  3. #23

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    I don't know if I can agree - if you have 2 100point bikes side by side and one has correct cast codes while the other does not, don't you think the judging process should differentiate? Maybe a very minute deduction, but I don't think my 41 with 47 cast codes is quite as legitimate as someone elses 41 with 41 cast codes.

    just my $0.02 (and not that I really care on my own bike, but others might)
    Ralph

  4. #24
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    Nov 2001
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    Our judging system is not a competition. It is only necessary for a bike to achieve 95 points for it to receive the maximum award of winners circle.

    I would prefer a restored bike that has all the correct date codes or a bike that has all original parts rather than one with some reproduction parts,
    We make no deductions for good reproduction parts and in my opinion we should not make deductions for date codes. It would be perfectly within the judging rules too use the reproduction knucklehead cylinders that are now available that have the correct MC cast mark on them.

    This is my interpretation of the judging rules, but I can see that other judges may interpret them differently.
    Thatís why I have suggested that the Chief Judge should make a ruling on this. .

    Pete Reeves 860

  5. #25

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    I hear you, Pete.
    But if the restoration standard is: "exactly as it may have left the factory" then perhaps the judging should take into consideration casting codes. For the 5 fin knuckle cylinders, for some years, the date codes are all there is. No other maker's mark is visible.
    If I look at a beehive taillight, am I willing to accept the light if it is missing the Harley-Davidson stamping across the top?
    If I look at an intake manifold, am I willing to accept it if it is missing the 428 401 casting number?
    Certainly the idea is to avoid discouragement of attempts at restoration or setting a standard that is not attainable. (or not judgeable)
    On the other hand, if I can walk up to a Winners Circle bike and identify major components that are from the wrong production year, it doesn't seem quite right.
    Sorry to everyone if I've pushed this thread in the wrong direction - I guess I should take the discussion over to the Judging forum.
    Ralph

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Jacksonville, FL
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    Quote Originally Posted by dommi7 View Post
    I hear you, Pete.
    But if the restoration standard is: "exactly as it may have left the factory" then perhaps the judging should take into consideration casting codes. For the 5 fin knuckle cylinders, for some years, the date codes are all there is. No other maker's mark is visible.
    If I look at a beehive taillight, am I willing to accept the light if it is missing the Harley-Davidson stamping across the top?
    If I look at an intake manifold, am I willing to accept it if it is missing the 428 401 casting number?
    Certainly the idea is to avoid discouragement of attempts at restoration or setting a standard that is not attainable. (or not judgeable)
    On the other hand, if I can walk up to a Winners Circle bike and identify major components that are from the wrong production year, it doesn't seem quite right.
    Sorry to everyone if I've pushed this thread in the wrong direction - I guess I should take the discussion over to the Judging forum.
    I agree with Dommi ...
    Vic Ephrem
    AMCA #2590

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    South Dakota
    Posts
    205

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    All of you guys that have concerns should get involved as an apprentice judge and bring this up at the judges meetings instead of talking about it here. Peter and I could sure use the help out there on the field and you could learn so much more about the bikes, as there are a lot more parts to look at on a bike when judging it than the cylinders. Get involved, it is a great learning experience and a lot of fun with your peers. Don't forget to ride this old iron as that is truely what it's all about.
    Carl

  8. #28
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    Nov 2001
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    Carl. Your right riding the bikes is what itís really all about.
    But I do think itís better to talk things through and reach a consensus on this forum rather than argue about them on the judging field.

    Ralph. The rear light and the inlet manifold you give as examples are both items used for a number of years and I think in both cases good quality reproductions are available. As far as the club rules go we can not make deductions for them as reproductions neither can we make deductions for a good quality reproduction cylinder, It would not be fare to deduct points for a correct original cylinder just because it has a later date code, its even possible that the cylinder was cast in the same mould as the engines original cylinder
    I can see nothing but problems and arguments if we start to judge casting dates.

    Pete Reeves 860

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
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    I have to agree. If you bought a bike under warranty, the engine failed, you took it back to the dealer, they replaced a cylinder or two, Wa La !!! Confict of date codes already. I have seen a date code chart on cylinders. Darned if I can remember where I saw it.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Posts
    319

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paps View Post
    I have to agree. If you bought a bike under warranty, the engine failed, you took it back to the dealer, they replaced a cylinder or two, Wa La !!! Confict of date codes already. I have seen a date code chart on cylinders. Darned if I can remember where I saw it.
    I see your point but the criteria is supposed to be how a bike left the factory, Not how it looked when the warranty ran out. This is getting way to complicated and nit picky for me. I used to be really excited about the judging process but it's getting harder to keep up with things as time goes on. For example, the Olsens restored a 55FL for me 10 years ago and it scored 97 right out of the box. I corrected a few things and got it up to 99.75. It is now in the winners circle. In the last few years things have gotten so technical that I wonder if the same bike would even make Jr. 1st by todays standards?

    I also have a something to add to the comments made by Carl and Pete in the previous posts about riding the old bikes like they were meant to be ridden. I have quite a few old bikes and there are a few I ride and quite a few that I won't ride. They are mainly the original paint machines. Is there anything wrong with leaving them parked and preserving their integrity for future generations? In my humble opinion, if we ride all these original bikes until they are wore out and need a restoration that is good for Carl and Matt's business but it is not doing much to preserve them for future generations. I beleive it is well and good to ride the pi## out of restorations but maybe some of the originals should be kept as they are for reference by future generations. Am I way off base here or what?

    Hope you all enjoy the holiday season!!!

    John Lindemann

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