Ode to the 25 Year Rule

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

1968... The times they are a changing. ...Let's 'Tier' that 1 year rule and speed-up to the 70's!.. ..The 'Classics' are coming!.....When they open the field at Oley ....I want to see that 70's' Norton Racer...sittin' next to your ' Injun' Oldie' ...Looking all the part of a 'P-51 Mustang' passing an 'Old' Bi-Plane!.... Come on boys...Let's Bend the Rules...These are THE years...The Classics!...low bars...rear sets...and Avon Speedmasters...OK, so they didn't all come from the Factory that way...BUT THEY SURE AS HELL WERE MEANT TO!....Disc front brake and polished aluminum...My 68' XLCH was looking for them.....Grab some throttle and let her roar!....Names like Lectron...Rickman...and Cafe Racer were trying to take the 'King' CH's.....Those 'Ton-Up Boys' were racing the 'Stop Light Bandits'!...'Week-End Warriors' at the Tracks.!...My Bored and Stroked XLCH with its drag pipes barking...STILL KICKING THEIR ASS!....Looking all the part 'The King'....waiting for the 'Rising SONS' and their Multi-Z's..and those Damned 2-Strokes!....This then are the BEST YEARS OF MY YOUTH!...when I truly 'ATE AND CRAPPED' MOTORCYCLES...Pulling up to those fantastic 'Muscle Cars' with engines revving....Grabbing another hand full of throttle... off the Light ...My Bored & Stroked 'SPORTY' with its MAG spinning...lighting those Champs...and hearing those drag pipes barking!...It would of never gotten 100 points... But it wasn't suppose to!....Come on Boy's let's open the Book!...add a few more years!.....Who'd of ever thought... they'd soon be the LAST OF THE BEST! ....Don't care what they say.... those new 'Super Bikes' are just a bunch of Plastic....48 almost 50...hairs gotten grey...That Old Sportster's long gone and silent ....Come on Boys!....Let's change the rules...don't make me wait Till I'm pushing SIXTY!.......Inside the garage sits memories of my youth.....a '74' Bored and Stroked CH this time...waiting on its Hunt Magneto....Bring it back to stock?....I DON'T THINK SO!...Not this one!.....This 'King' may never wear a 100 point crown....BUT HELL...THIS 'SPORTY' AIN'T MEANT TO EITHER!......The Road Runs are coming....and we'd like to be there....My 'Old' New 'XLCH' and the Nortons.....Sign up ahead reads 'Cafe'.....Hell we'll wait..we don't mind... You and your 'Old Bikes' will catch up in time!....Open the Book Boys and make a Note:....2003's when the Rule was Re-Wrote!;) ...Aye..brings a tear to these old Irish eyes:p ...Hrdly-Dangrs

[Pete Gagan]

Great minds do think alike. I have put that one on the agenda for Board discussion at our next meeting in Borrego. It might take a bit of selling, although quite a few are in aggreement. An interesting fact is that when the AMCA was formed in 1954, it catered to those with motorcycles built befor 1930. In 1954, a 1929 bike was 25 years old.
One of our long gone past presidents pushed the idea of extending to 30, and then 35 years, "to keep the Brit bikes out". Unfortunately, his program was quite successful, and many of those enthusiasts have gone elsewhere. This was not the original intent, as Henry Wing Sr. had a 1927 Brooklands Douglas, Henry Wing Jr. had a 1922 Scott, Ted Hodgdon had a 1914 BSA, and Art Sigal had mostly British and European machines. I would like to get opinions on this from the membership.
Pete Gagan, Prez

[61 panman]

It is nice to see so much love on this board today. I think our new president is certainly bringing in an era of a kindler gentler old bike club.
I feel terrible that I had been ruminating on some way to keep the Irish out.
Mea Culpa,
Doug

[61 panman]

Anyway getting serious I for one would be all for a 25 year rule. So count me in. This certainly would bring in more members and more interest into the club. Not that more is necessarily better but 35 year old and older bikes are getting quite pricey. And probably the reason most of us got into old bikes was we could not afford a new one. At the time the reasoning was who wants this old junk. Pretty soon you won't be able to get any replacement parts to fix it, then it is off to the scrap heap.
Here we are generally oldish, ornery, cranky, cantankerous, cheap, maybe a bit smelly, hard nosed, hard headed, dirty fingernailed, independent, kickstartin sons of guns, mostly interested in old motorcycles and the weather (and that covers only the female members) and we cannot embrace our pushbutton startin, fancy pants wearin, dealership oil changin, electric turn signalin, electronic ignition firing, tubeless tire sportin,disc brake stoppin, tea sippin, lite beer drinkin, "Bretherin" whose exhausts don't smoke! just because their bikes were built before 1968.
I hate to put a nametag on anyone but this really has an air of snobbishness to it.
Doug

[AFJ]

A few observations, as an AMCA member for 25 years.

The 35 year rule was generally ignored on the last couple of National Road Runs I was on.

The Canadian Vintage Motorcycle Group (Canadian equivalent of the AMCA) has had a 10 year rule for the past 35 years. It does not seem to have hurt their growth and development in that time.

The Vintage Motor Cycle Club in England has had a 25 year rule for some years. When they first formed in 1946 they had a cut-off year of 1930, thereby accepting bikes only 16 years of age.

While I think that it may well be time to consider seriouly moving to a less restrictive age limitation in order to encourage the preservation and use of a wider range of Classic motorcycles, I also would like to see the National Board do something to encourage the use (in AMCA events) of older motorcycles. This could be the provision of separate routes at National Road Runs for pre-1930 motorcycles, or the promotion of separate Runs only for pre-1930 or even earlier age groups of our historic motorcycles.

If motorcycles of as little as 25 years age are allowed, perhaps Road Runs should be designed for Antique (1930 or older), Post-Antique (1931- 1953) and Classic (1954 to 25 years of age) or some similar grouping. (I chose 1953 as a cut-off for Post-antique to group the popular Indian Chiefs in one category. Others may have a better idea.)

AFJ

[Pete Gagan]

Just one final thought on the 35 year thing- we have a tendency to concentrate on the bikes rather than the people. A few of us, myself included, collect and restore motorcycles for historic or curatorial reasons, and therefore have some really ancient devices made when our grandfathers were young. Most of us though, are nostalgic collectors and riders, and lust after the machines we had, or wish we had when we were young. If you fall into the latter category, and it's to be a bike 35 years old or older, you have to be pushing 60 to be elegible to join the AMCA. Lowering the machine age bar will welcome younger members.

[AFJ]

It is my impression that a good many of the younger and newer AMCA members would be very interested to own, restore and ride the earlier bikes if they had some help and education from the older generation. And I think that there are many younger motorcyclists who would be part of the AMCA and take an interest in the earlier bikes as well. This is based on the great deal of interest shown in my 1927 bike whenever I show up riding it at a later bike event.
What a lot of the younger generation seem to lack is the old-time mechanic's knowledge and instinct in repair and care of earlier machinery. They are so used to the post-WWII parts list/shop manual/parts replacement approach to restoration and rebuilds that they are frightened off by any old bike that does not have a near 100% new replacement parts availability - and a skilled mechanic nearby.
If some of the older ones of us had taken that attitude to some of the bikes we came across decades ago there would be far fewer old bikes - and members in the AMCA.
We need to pass on the accumulated knowledge of how to repair and ride the old bikes to as wide a range of our younger members as possible. I think many "youngsters" would see the care and riding of older bikes as a challenge to be met - and enjoyed.

AFJ

[HJahn]

I guess it depends whether or not the club wishes to remain "pure" or wishes to bring more people into the fold. But with the prices the "real" antiques and classics are fetching, it makes it a more and more exclusive group that either has Big Bucks or bought the "junk" years ago.

How many young people can afford what amounts to a rich man's hobby?

Heck, if it were 25 years my daily ride ('76 BMW) would qualify.

Fancy that!

[L. A.]

:mad: This thread makes me wish I still had my '67 XLCH!!!!!! :rolleyes:

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

To a kid under 25 years old a Harley Shovelhead is ANTIQUE! I think that a lot of them simply don't yet understand the satisfaction of bringing an old bike back to its original condition and the time and processes it takes. We should remember that our own tastes are most likely far removed from the younger kids today what with those flashy 'Super Bikes', doing 'Wheelies' and watching the older guys riding their modern off-road motorcycles. And this is probably right where we need to get started. There are 9,530 stories (as of Aug 26, 2002) this is a made-up one: We all know that a lot of the members with kids that show interest in their fathers 'Hobby'(?), are pretty much future members. They're fortunate enough to be brought up around the 'Hobby'. But how about that kids friend(s), You know the one(s) that goes with his buddy and his Dad to a 'Motorcycle Show'. He get's that 'spark' and goes home to 'HIS' dad and tells him how great it was! Now his Dad's looking for a Father/Son project and if both are lucky..Bingo.!, we've got a couple potential new members. Great so far..... EXCEPT FOR ONE THING.....A MOTORCYCLE....Got to have one for that project...Dad starts looking thru the paper and if he's lucky he finds an 'old' bike that he can pretty much afford...say a '70's Honda 350??...Ok..so its no Indian, but it's an "AFFORDABLE" project....gets his friend (The old bearded guy with the old bikes)....they get to talking and next thing you know their off to the next AMCA meet 6 weeks down the road with directions in hand!. Lucky for them Dad and son see their good AMCA friend at the show, finds a couple of parts...throw in a pair of T-shirts and a hot dog and life is good!...... No, No Moral to this story...just some key words....AFFORDABLE.....'70's HONDA.....PARTS.....FUN.....FATHER/SON.......POTENTIAL NEW MEMBER(s) and most important 'THE OLD BEARDED GUY AMCA MEMBER' that helped make it happen. Helped create the atmosphere and arena that made available a more diverse selection of affordable motorcycles. Oh yeah and the AMCA Member that sold those 'NEW' old parts that have been laying around his garage for too damn long was happy too!....THE END or rather the THE BEGINNING!........ No animals were harmed in the telling of this story...;) ....Hrdly-Dangrs

[AdminGuy]

I feel a 25 yr rule would not change anything as it currently stands with the AMCA. I feel other marques have already moved to other clubs. Usually marque specific clubs.

I purposely hang back during road runs so that I can get an opportunity to ride with some of the pre-30 bikes. Listen to the motors. Smell the exhaust. Watch how it handles. and of course, pick up the odd piece that has fallen off.
You know who you are! I really enjoy all the different marques. Keeps it interesting.

Exclusive club - you bet it is. The roots are deep. It won't be changeing over night. Which I feel is good. Sadly, I also feel that it's so exclusive that many young people see it immediately as completely unobtainable and quickly dismiss it.

Knowledge share is a strong motivating factor to join. Many young guys will take night school courses to learn additional skills. If you want the knowledge and have a strong interest - you'll find a way to get it.

Don't forget that the public education system has changed alot over the last 15-20 years. Many 18 yr olds don't understand or care how that modern bike works. Just that it does. Bolt on performance. Disposable culture. Look at the jap custom cars. I feel that's a stepping stone also.

Getting an antique bike back on the road and running well is a major feat for a young person. Having it judged is almost unthinkable for many because of the costs involved. Some sort of stepping stone is helpful. It should be encouraged. Once your bitten by the bug, there is no looking back.

When I'm out talking with other young guys (and a girl or two) involved with antique motorcycles - it's clearly understood that we are truely insane. You do it because you love it, it's in your blood. Not because you can afford it.

The bikes and parts are priced far out of reach of most under 30 people. The non-American stuff is a stepping stone. You grow to appreciate the really earily stuff over time and from exposure to it.

The Dutch have that lending or mentor program for road runs. It gets bikes on the road for the day, and gets guys that are truly interested involved also. I think that's really neat. But I'm not sure if that would ever happen in our club. Hummmm...maybe it could. I'll have to work on that with our chapter.

[AdminGuy]

Hrdly that was a good story. Great stuff! Very true. Everyone starts somewhere. Now we just have to be real nice like-and help stear them in the right direction.

Q. Does the old fellow braid his beard or is it parted in the middle for wind swept hwy action. Tee-hee-hee....
Paul Edwards

[L. A.]

Originally posted by AdminGuy


LOL Admin-Guy!!


I purposely hang back during road runs so that I can get an opportunity to ride with some of the pre-30 bikes. Listen to the motors. Smell the exhaust. Watch how it handles. and of course, pick up the odd piece that has fallen off.
You know who you are! I really enjoy all the different marques. Keeps it interesting.

When I lived in SE Florida, no one would ride next to my best ridin' buddy, 'Bonz'...but I relished takin' my place next to'm!

...Bonz ran a '47 Knuck...he was always losin' parts...the two of us would stop & pull over...sometimes walkin' back down the highway a quarter mile to pick up somethin' he 'lost'!
What a hoot!
... And thank gawd for bailing wire!
He always packed some of that on his bike...made for a quick fix!

The other reason no one wanted to ride back there with'm was because he loved throwin' out those flame balls...but I hafta admit, the first time I heard one blow out, I thought I was shot...LMAO...guess it was just too freaky for the rest of the pack...hehehe!



Getting an antique bike back on the road and running well is a major feat for a young person. Having it judged is almost unthinkable for many because of the costs involved. Some sort of stepping stone is helpful. It should be encouraged. Once your bitten by the bug, there is no looking back.

When I'm out talking with other young guys (and a girl or two) involved with antique motorcycles - it's clearly understood that we are truely insane. You do it because you love it, it's in your blood. Not because you can afford it.

I appreciate the fact that you 'threw' that in...;)

I remember growing up, the boys from HS would buy an old 'piece of crap'...their words, not mine...work on'm day & night...then go to the drags & run'm...seems kids now-a-days have so much simply handed to them, that they've neither KNOW the importance of these wonderful machines, wether it be a M/C or a car, nor CARE about getting their hands dirty.
Dad...I need a new car...whaa, whaa, whaaa!!
It's a cryin' shame...........:(

[AdminGuy]

Thanks L.A.

Let me clarify one thing. I'm an insane motorcycle'o'filiack.

British bikes are great fun to ride. Many young guys I have talked to have moved on/up from restoreing british bikes to restore American motorcycles because they hold there value.

Sadly, very few unrestored AM. bikes are still floating around.

If your going to put 4-6 years of your life into a project it's nice to come out ahead a bit. Have something that is not that common. Something that your proud of -as a temporary janitor of history. An investment that's fun to play with.

Not to mention riding behind a guy on a hopped up teenage bike doing 65mph. The first time I saw this, I was scratching my head. I thought -wait a minute- that thing shouldn't be capable of doing 65mph. ......great fun.

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

Sure the Earliest American motorcycles are likely to command the highest dollar return for your investment, but not always. Just look at the prices those Vincent's and Brough Superiors are commanding!.... Too many variables in that one. ....Original cost of the machine,.... Replacement parts costs relative to availability,....Demand of the Make or Model itself.....Cost relative to individual parts restoration needs....and so on. And let's not forget one of the most important factors which is the individual(s) own Time and skills. In most cases that can be the most expensive of all! There are still some Antique American motorcycles waiting to be discovered, that's true. But it's more likely that they're going to probably end up in those guy's hands that have the money/means to acquire them. This I can testify to as its happened to me on at least two ocassions. One involving a 50's Indian Chief, but that's a story for another day. So then, where should our youngest members or potential members look for an 'AFFORDABLE' project and what 'TIME' would be reasonable for that 'young' inexperienced Lad or Lass expect to spend before they experience the satisfaction of seeing a project thru to it's ultimate end (Success)? This in 'my' opinion is the 'Classics' as I call them, that were produced from the Late sixties to 1979. These motorcycles (with the exception of a few 'Specials' ) are still plentiful, reasonablely priced and so diverse in sizes as to making available the largest number of 'AFFORDABLE' 100CC to 1200cc range then at any other time in our own Club's history. For Young kids (AS WELL AS SOME ADULTS), 4 years might as well be a life-time. This is not to say that we should encourage instant satisfaction, but rather set a time for the project that is reasonable to keep the kids interest from waning (Theres all kinds of books written about this stuff), while having access to readily available parts and still be able to complete the projects on an 'AFFORDABLE' budget. Pride in ownership, pride in accomplishment and the learning process are our goals. And this applies to older guys that are attempting their first 'Restoration'. Ultimately we want to have these owner's and their machines come to 'OUR SHOWS' and participate as 'MEMBERS' of OUR CLUB. Listen, I'm as guilty as anyone of some fun 'Ribbing' towards my friends with 'Foreign' bikes, but I've met guys that are serious about buying, restoring, collecting and selling those small 1970's Japanese motorcycle as anyone into 'Harleys'. Makes me wish I still had those three 1960's Kawasaki WSS 's I sold cheaply some years ago (Gave them away is more like it)!....What do you say to a guy who asks you when your going to get rid of that Harley and get a real motorcycle like their Triumph??...(They never seen me stand my Sportster almost vertical while shifting thru the gears!!)(Ok, so I'm exaggerating by 10 degrees and I didn't do it on purpose....But still it was pretty cool!).... So let's welcome in these guys into our club....the more the merrier...after all...this is the 'Antique' Motorcycle Club of America...not the 'American' Motorcycle Club......'..:) ...Hrdly-Dangrs

[AdminGuy]

Well said.

I think you can almost build a Brough from repop spares now. Go figure. I love the speedos on them. Very neat multi-function unit.

Yup - different strokes for different folks. And I guess we should consider what will be happening in the club in 50 years.

Will people be buying gas from the last refinery in Mexico for 50 bucks a gallon? Will people be hauling in tankers for road runs?

Will portable Cad/Cam plastic injection machines be repoping one off plastic parts on demand at meets? Maybe? ...Yuck.

I see no point in continueing with the 35yr rule. I think the major import of Brit bikes was from 49-51 and from 66-70. We are already pretty deep into it.
The Japanese clubs are also pretty well established.

In my mind the club will continue to be dominated by H-D, Ind, AM bike club. Maybe I'm wrong. The classic stuff should be encouraged as it is a starting point that will get people out, in and moving up.

That Honda four enthusiast over time -could turn into a Henderson Four enthusiast. Education is the key.

Ohhhhhh ya, And the dads always end up doing 90 percent of the work anyhow. The kid gets to bolt the cycl. head on, kick it over and ride it.

[markd]

Originally posted by Pete Gagan
Just one final thought on the 35 year thing- we have a tendency to concentrate on the bikes rather than the people. A few of us, myself included, collect and restore motorcycles for historic or curatorial reasons, and therefore have some really ancient devices made when our grandfathers were young. Most of us though, are nostalgic collectors and riders, and lust after the machines we had, or wish we had when we were young. If you fall into the latter category, and it's to be a bike 35 years old or older, you have to be pushing 60 to be elegible to join the AMCA. Lowering the machine age bar will welcome younger members.

I am a new member to this board and I have to agree with this analysis. Oneof the bikes I own is a 1969 BMW R60US. When I started riding in 69, I could afford only Honda 350's. But in the BMW dealer next doors window was this Bavarian creme R60US. I would look at that bike every time I brought my Honda in for service and think "One day I will be able to aford one of those". 25 years later, I saw one just like that one and bought it. It represented what a motorcycle should look like - at least in my minds eye.
Mark

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

Interesting to me is the fact that my '74' Iron Head Sportster is, with the exception of a few part modifications, the same motorcycle as that of the '68'!... actually the '57'!! ...Same Crankshaft/Rods and Rear Wheel to name a few...The most drastic changes being the Evo Sportster motor itself in the Eighties! I'd always thought that the 35 Year Rule was a bit unrealistic. Most of the Antique and Classic Car and Motorcycle Club's have a 25 Year Rule. The 25 Year Rule will allow you to gather parts that are more readily available at lower cost. This in itself will likely get more older bikes up and running sooner, and likely have them appreciated more by the general motorcycling Public to allow them to remain in a higher state of preservation. I hope to keep this thread current up till the Vote mentioned by Pete Gagan. If your reading this and haven't commented, please do so! For or against...Interesting to Note also is that in the world of Antique collecting.....A True Antique is at least 100 Years old!!....everything else are considered 'Collectibles'!....:cool: ...Hrdly-Dangrs

[Kojack]

OK, you guys have stirred me up enough to register so I can reply. I think the 35 year rule is fine as it is. As a young boy I had to walk past the Royal Enfield shop on my way to school. I was impressed enough to develop an interest in British cycles that I still have today, but I don't feel a need to see more of them at AMCA events. There are plenty of British cycle events already out there. At 47 years old I grew up when the jap bikes were at their best. My friends all started riding on early to mid-seventies Hondas and Suzukis. I had little interest in them then and little interest in them now. I always liked the really old stuff. I have a few motorcycles and the nicest ones are less than 35 years old but I'm patient enough to wait out the 35 year rule for them. I only attend the Oley and Wauseon events but I don't see them lacking participants. Would a large influx of Japanese and British bikes and parts make these events better? I can't see how. I don't like the idea of having to search past boxes of Honda parts to find the Indian stuff. Even with the 35 year rule these events have been growing. Knocking 10 years off may even cause overcrowding. We need to keep in mind that it's a rolling 35 year rule and all these bikes will eventually have their day in the sun. Patience.

[markd]

Kojak, My intent is not that an large influx of Japanese - or any other type of bike - suddenly start appearing at the different meets.

However, I do believe that to keep any interest, or group of people interested in similar things, fresh and vital that new members are always to be encouraged.

You are correct, my 69 Beemer will meet the 35 year rule next year. Not the point. The point is are there ways AMCA should be exploring to get new generations of riders and collectors involved. The age rule is just an obvious starting point of discussion.
:) Mark

[Kojack]

Markd, that may not be your intent but it would probably happen. Not only will your BMW be eligible next year, a bunch of Japanese bikes including the 350 Hondas you mention (excellant starter bikes by the way) will be having their 35th birthdays. My thinking is that motorcycle sales sharply increased in the late 60s and 70s. Even with the 35 year rule there is going to be a big increase in eligible motorcycles in the next few years. This isn't the time to blow up the dam. I also disagree that the supply of old American bikes is almost gone. I'm always coming across old Sportsters that need restored and how about the Indian verticals? They're not all that expensive. There are still some deals out there on Harley 45s. I've always felt that finding an old bike is half the fun.

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

Kojack, I agrree that their won't be any shortage of Harley Sportsters to restore any time soon, but why would you want to restore a 60's/70's Iron Head Sportster anyway?? They certainly aren't 'Antique' but rather Classic/Modern! Antigue Motorcycles ended in the 1950's. Certainly by 1965 max! I think as we enter the 1970's, most guys aren't looking to restore Sportsters to 'Factory' specs. The possible exception would likely be those 'Odd-Ball' Sportster off-road models of the early sixties and the K-models of the fifities. The Sportster is a true American Hot Rod!! A good running 'modified' Sportster with the latest up-dates and High performance parts will command as much or more money then a restored one! But I guess if you really must restore... As for me AMF decals will never be part of any of my paint jobs (even though I recognize that AMF did save H-D from extinction!) Ha, Ha!! I think our Club should expand its acceptance of these 'Modifieds' and 'Choppers' Era Motorcycles. Simply adding 1 Year per annum doesn't make for another true 'Antique' Motorcycle any more. The advant of disc brakes, electric start, directionals. etc, ushers in the 'Classic/Modern' Era. I think one of our tasks as a 'Motorcycle Club' should be to find a place for these bikes to Show/Display/Participate within the AMCA.....Enter the changes such as the 25 Year Rule. The 25 year Rule will not affect the earlier more expensive true 'Antique' motorcycles. Not likely you'd get a diehard 30's Indian/Harley collector/restorer interested in the newer bikes. But what it will likely accomplish is to allow a good influx of fairly affordable machines of various Makes and Models and their parts to our Members both current and future. It'll get these 'Classic/Modern' bikes off to a good start in regards to bringing out the parts for trading/sellling/collecting while they're still fairly easy to get. Of course 'Supply and Demand' will dictate how the Japanese bikes of the 70's will fair in the AMCA. After all the 'A' in AMCA doesn't stand for 'American Made' only. We should encourage ALL makes of motorcycle participation, even if we personally don't care for them. They'll never interefer with the true 'Antique' (READ: EXPENSIVE!!) motorcycles that are definitely becoming harder to find. And yes I believe they are getting rare. Sure, you can piece an old bike together from parts but its still not an 'Original' whole bike. I think the 25 Year Rule's time has arrived. 'Antique and "Classic" Motorcycle Club of America' ?? Sounds good to me!!.......:cool: ....Hrdly-Dangrs

[Kojack]

I still don't see a need for changing to the "Antique and Classic( /Modern ) Motorcycle Club of America." I don't see that making these machines and parts available to our members is an issue. I'm a member and I have no problem finding these machines and parts without the AMCA. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting them. I attend about 6-8 local swap meets a year as both a vendor and buyer and believe me, the later stuff is out there. Nor do I think it's our club's task to find a place for them within the AMCA. In my opinion they're just not old enough to warrant the special interest that this club was formed to cater to. I'm more concerned that AMCA events will just become plain ordinary bike rallys. I've been to a few of the AMA's "Vintage Days" and it's turned into just the kind of event you speak of. I quit going, Wauseon is more my type of event even though it's a longer trip for me. I'd actually be more in support of a non-rolling age rule. Perhaps make a permanent cut off date of around 1970 for any AMCA related event. Let the Vintage Japanese club take care of their business and let the British clubs take care of theirs. Smaller more focused clubs and events seem, to me, better suited to take care of their members needs. Some people seem concerned that as the years go on interest will wane in the antique bikes. I don't see it happening. Last I heard, the AMCA was still growing. The members may age and pass on but the bikes won't evaporate. Someone else will take over custody and keep them going. (NOTE: anyone out there that wants to give up custody, please call me.)
I enjoyed your comments on Sportsters and mostly agree. I do feel that pre 1979 Sportsters are some of the most beautiful American bikes ever made and deserve to be restored, at least kept close to original appearance. '79 and later Sportsters were forced on us by communist activists and should be modified, chopped or crushed as often as possible. I currently own a '52 K project, a '75, an '81 and a clean '78 Anniversery Edition.
All my riders have been AMF era Harleys. Sometimes I feel left out, I've never had any problems with them. Evidently, everyone else has. Willie G. was quoted in one book as saying that Harley had serious quality control problems when AMF took over, not just after. AMF had the deep pockets that kept Harley going and allowed Harley to adopt a lot of modern manufacturing techniques and practices, though not without problems. Keep in mind, Detroit wasn't having it's best years in the early 70s either. AMF: American Machine and Foundry. No mention of bowling balls, is there?

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

Kojack, just the mere yearly addition of motorcycles will eventually bring even the 'EVO' Harleys into the 'Antique' MCA, but unless we go to all Electric and Hrydrogen powered motorcycles, I can't see ever calling these bikes 'Antiques'. I think the 35 Year Rule should be used as a 'Rule of Thumb' and not a 'Absolute' Rule. We all know that True 'Antique' motorcycles ended in the Early Sixties (at the Latest!) I'm not touting changing the name of the Club. No need for that. Just recognize that we're into the 'Classic'/Modern ages of Motorcycles. it's a matter of samantics. Setting a cut-off date would certainly keep us a pure 'Antique' motorcycle Club. But why not have the best of both worlds. Usher in the Classics with the 25 Year Rule. If just the eligibility for Judging Criteria is the issue, then who's to say we couldn't keep that at the 35 year Rule or split the difference and set Judging at the 30 year Mark. As for the Japanese/British Bikes...again we're not the 'American Only' MCA.....Check out my next thread and tell me what you think....Later...:cool: ...Hrdly-Dangrs

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

I screwed up adding to this topic, so to continue this thread, just go to '25 Year Rule'...:( ..Hrdly-Dangrs

[LouieMCman]

I wanted to reply and put in our two cents worth on changing the 35 year rule. The Dixie Chapter had a road run last weekend and I put the 35 year rule on the meeting agenda and stated that the National Board wanted our opinion on the matter. We had about 20 members from three different chapters in attendance and the vote was unanimous, all was in favor of NOT changing the rule. There was many comments such as, the club is growing every year so why change? And, the judging is a nightmare now especially with the late model bikes why change now?
To be fair, I must admit that there mostly american bikes on the run. But I wanted to get this message out before the rule was voted on by the Board. I personnally believe we should not change to rule, one of the most rediculous things I know of is the 20 year antique rule that Harley-Davidson uses for their ride-in bike shows in Daytona. Next year Evo's will be antiques!!!
Louie Hale
Dixie Chapter

[AFJ]

I have no particular difficulty with either the existing 35 or a possible 25 year rule for AMCA eligibility.

One aspect does concern me. That is the fact that on the AMCA Road Runs which I have participated in, there have been quite a number of bikes participating which were less - a lot less - than 35 years of age. The "turning a blind eye" to the use of non-eligible bikes means that our road runs then become just like any other motorcycle club's runs. I think that these runs should be celebrations of our motorcycling heritage and the ability of our members to rebuild and ride the really historic old bikes - not just those 35, 40 or 50 years old for which new parts are available but those from the teens, '20's, 30's and '40's. Those older bikes are much more of a challenge to get into running condition and to ride in an event. The satisfaction of completing a 125 mile day's schedule in a National Road Run on a 1920's motorcycle has to be experienced to be understood.

I would promote the idea of special routes at the National Road Runs more suitable for the earlier bikes in order to encourage AMCA members who own them to participate. It's worth the extra layout effort to see the real Antique bikes out there and being used as they were intended to be.

[mick]

1st post: I think this has been mentioned more than once, but how about a CLASSIC designation for the newer bikes? At events they could be grouped separately. The greater point would be the encouraging of participation and the sharing of interests. I think there is a value to the sharing of interests and experiences between those who have similar, but slightly different interests - in this case equipment. For instance, someone with a 25 yr. old bike may benefit from rubbing elbows with someone owning a true antique bike. Pass the wisdom, interest and experience along the chain, don't cut the chain to keep people out. Those who are older and have experienced these antique bikes when they were in their youth (and the bikes were new) may have great memories to share with the younger crowd who are now only reaching back to the classics. In my view we're all in this because of a love for motorcycling; there's surely a way for everyone to participate, while retaining divisions (antique, classic, etc.) which aknowledge different ages of motorcycling history.

mick

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

Ok, let's say you've just picked up a decent mid-Seventies Norton, Sportster, BT Shovelhead, Honda...your choice..(But I like Nortons today.) Got it for a good price and its going to be a good Father/Son project or maybe you've always wanted one for your collection. Overall its in good restoreable condition. Just needs some parts and sheetmetal and good ole' elbow grease to make it like new or a good 'original' condition bike. Now here you are, a Member of a motorcycle club who's goal it is to seek out and restore or bring back to original condition these very motorcycles, but your not going to be able to find parts for this bike at this years AMCA shows, nor next year, nor the year after that, nor the year after that, .....nor... need I go on?? The 35 Year Rule as it stands does nothing to promote the trading/selling/finding of the parts that will put this soon to be 'Antique' (ACCORDING TO OUR OWN 35 YEAR RULE ANYWAY), bike back in shape for the year it is going to be eligible to Judge....UNTIL THE VERY YEAR IT IS ELIGIBLE TO BE JUDGED!! Just does not make sense to me! Why are we denying our Vendors (OURSELVES), the opportunity to supply these much needed parts for fellow Members who's motorcycle is a mere 3-5 years from the 35 Year Rule!! Certainly, here to me at least is an area that should be addressed in regards to the 'ACROSS THE BOARD' 35 Year Rule as it now stands! Maybe your not in favor of the 25 Year Rule itself, but when it comes to the all encompassing 35 Year Rule I think there are many areas that could get a 'tweek' of the wrench....:cool: '''Hrdly-Dangrs

[Kojack]

So, H.D., your logic is that if a bike is close to becoming an antique than we should go ahead and allow them and their parts into the AMCA. I find that thinking flawed. Why bother with even a 25 year rule? Just let any motorcycle in, if it doesn't qualify as an antique now than it will a few years down the road. You seem to think that if the AMCA doesn't embrace a certain motorcycle than there is no way that parts can be found or it can be restored. Have you ever heard of the Norton Owners Club, Triumph Owners Club, BSA Owners Club or the Vintage Japanese Owners Club? They're all great organizations and more than able to provide parts sources and assistance to their respective members, probably far more effectively than the AMCA ever could. They all sponsor meets and get togethers where you can find Norton, BSA, etc. parts without having to sort through piles of old Harley, Japanese, etc. parts. If it's a father and son project than I'd bet that son is computer savvy enough to find these sources on the 'net, or for that matter in Cycle World Magazine. (More on that later.) I think the only thing we agree on is the fact that just because a bike is 35 years old, that doesn't make it an antique. I propose that instead of having a 35 or 25 year rule, we just make a permanent cutoff year of 1953. Harley had just introduced foot shifting and Indian was about to become history. The British bikes were losing a lot of their old time charm also. It was the start of the "modern" era for motorcycles. Maybe we could even extend it to the late '50s to include the last rigid frames.
Now, on another note, the last couple of issues of "The Antique Motorcycle" have been a big disappointment to me. We haven't even killed the 35 year rule yet and already there is coverage on newer cycles. If I want that kind of stuff I'll read "Cycle World" magazine. Our club magazine is the only one out there that doesn't have articles on "modern" era bikes (other than the new and excellent "Motorcycles in Retrospect") and I think it should stay that way. Sorry, but I'm not interested in supporting an organization or attending meets that cater to modern cycles. I know a few others that feel the same way.

[Pete Gagan]

Hi Kojack:
You will no doubt be pleased to know that most folks are against lowering the age limit to 25 years, so herefore it probably won't go. I will be voting against it, and suggesting other BOD members do as well. As to going earlier, I personally am interested in pre WW-1 bikes mainly, but if we went backwards, our club would shrink, and the magazine could no longer survive, and we would fade away. We can't turn the clock back, but must move forward. I would like to see us remain the #1 old motorcycle club in the western hemisphere.
Cheers,
Pete Gagan, AMCA National President.

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

Gee Kojack, is this '35 Year Rule' a part of the Ten Commandments?? I didn't realize it was written in stone. What's so flawed about wanting to find the parts I'm going to need for a soon to be 'Eligable for Judging' motorcycle NOW...at my favorite motorcycle club, the AMCA, for which I'm a dues paying Member of over 15 years?? I can just as easily find old Indian, Harley, Norton parts and bikes on the Web and my local 'Want Ad' myself...so whats your point?? AMCA...'Antique' Motorcycle Club...not 'American Only' Motorcycle Club. The Japanese bikes are coming and in some cases are already on the show fields...how they'll sell/trade at the shows is anyones guess...but certainly they share in the over-all motorcycling history...and therefore deserve equal time in The Antique Motorcycle. Even if we personally don't care for them. Remember too that that Article is one part of a Series of Articles dealing with other Makes/Models from the German, British and American manufacturers. I don't read Cycle World....too tame for me. Your right...True Antique motorcycles ended in the 50's...so why get upset with a change to a 25 Year Rule...it's not going to change your view or how you conduct buisness with regard to your preferance of old bikes. Among other things, IT IS an attempt to increase the availability of less expensive motorcycles and their parts, NOW rather then later when the same motorycles will surely increase in value. And to make them available at 'OUR SHOWS' and in doing so bring back some of those that left for Specialty Marque Clubs and increase participation among younger less affluent Members. Well...got to go...Remember...I'm just playing at 'Devils Advocate'...:cool: ;) ..Hrdly-Dangrs

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

I just seen Pete Gagan's Reply as I posted my prior one. So there you go....likely the 25 Year Rule won't fly. Too bad that....Oh well, I gave it my best shot...can't win them all...but...then there's always other things about....Now I was thinking...what if.....;) ....Hrdly-Dangrs

[Kojack]

Thanks for the update, Mr. Gagan. I’ll sleep a little easier now. I may still lobby for a permanent cuttoff date, just to play the devil’s advocate. Now H.D., I seem to have given you the impression that I only want to be involved with American bikes. Let me try to remedy that. Although I’ve always had a love affair with antiques, the first bike I could afford was a “bobbed” ‘67 Honda 450 (gasp). It was a lot of fun, even when I was pushing it. At this moment a friend of mine has a very complete but rough ‘71 450 for sale for a song. I’m desperately trying to talk myself out of buying it, just because I don’t have the room or time for another project. I mentioned that I was involved with British bikes. I’m still a member of the Ohio Valley BSA Owners Club and served as president back around ‘90 when we hosted the International Rally. BSAs, British bikes and enthusiasts from all over the world, that was fun. I’m fresh out of BSAs right now but there’s still a ‘75 Bonneville back in my shed waiting for some minor engine and cosmetic work. It doesn’t bother me a bit that I can’t find parts for it at the AMCA meets. The British meets do fine and how could I complain about having a reason to attend more motorcycle events? If I get the 450 (not gonna do it, not gonna do it) I won’t be ashamed to go to the the Vintage Japanese club for assistance, if needed. I feel that these smaller, more focused clubs do a better job at catering to the interests of their members and I prefer them. As long as I’ve been in the BSA club, I’ve never heard anyone say “Gee, I wish my bike was 35 years old so I could join the AMCA.” Actually, it was just the opposite. People were happy to have an event that was made strictly for people sharing their own very similar interests. I’d bet that members of the Vintage Japanese club feel the same way. I feel that the AMCA should also stay focused, on OLD bikes. We don't need to become the "Universal All Things to All People Motorcycle Club". We're doing fine as we are.

[Hrdly-Dangrs]

As that Great American Hero 'Rodney Dangerfield' says in the movie 'Back To School'....."The Wars over...they got new parts for your head".......As for me, I'm taking my ball and going home....Nany...nany.....:p :mad: ;) ....Hrdly-Dangrs