View Full Version : What Makes A Future Antique?
01-04-2003, 07:56 PM
Scenerio: Take one new after market frame, add one 2003 S&S EVO Motor or H-D 2003 Factory EVO Motor. Throw in a bunch of new parts (American and Foreign) and build well. Take the MSO's and all receipts to the New Jersey DMV. Get my Title. I am now the proud owner of one new 2003 'Owner Constructed' 'One of a Kind' Legally Titled motorcycle. Now jump ahead 35 years (25??) (God Willing, Bless Me Irish Ars) Is my 2003 'Antigue One Off, Hand Built Motorcycle' now eligible to show along side other 2003 Factory motorcycles at the 2038' Oley, Pa (This years theme the H-D V-Rod Motorcycle....imagine that then!?) AMCA Meet??......What Say You??......Hrdly-Dangrs
01-04-2003, 10:02 PM
At first it sounded like you were buildin a Harley but after finishin your piece I realized you was buildin one of them new fangled indians.
01-05-2003, 10:54 AM
Ahh, possibly!..But...I was thinking...I'll modify the H-D Logo decal and name it.. 'The Malarkey'...with a 'Shamrock' decal on the oil tank!....Then nobody could mistake it for an 'Indian' or 'Harley' or those other American Motorcycle Assembler Companies...Can I look forward to getting a Sr. Award!.. After all it will be 100% Original ...especially since I plan to keep it absolutely 'stock'....Do you think I should take a lot of photos to document it?...Oh and I probably should keep all the receipts too!...Come to think of it..my brother-in law has a print shop...perhaps a couple of brochures...in Color..Wow great collectibles too!....Hrdly-Dangrs
01-05-2003, 01:35 PM
I like your ideas, you certainly are a man of the future, absolutely born before your time. Do not forget to place prominently on your bike what exit you are from. :p
01-05-2003, 02:03 PM
You New York Fellas are always trying to identify us Jersey Boys by Exits... Whilst we here know better...We're all from God's Country (North or South)....Hrdly-Dangrs!..
01-06-2003, 01:24 PM
exit 153 for me.
Oak Ridge huh, I'm over in Pompton Lakes. How was your NJ DMV experience? I probably have another year or so before I have to deal with it. Assembling an knucklehead replica.
01-06-2003, 04:36 PM
Markz, My point (tongue in cheek), is whether in 35 years time (25 if our Club were to change the Year Rule), would my 'Owner Built', One-Off, Legally Titled Motorcycle by The State of New Jersey, built with currently available 'aftermarket' supplied (sounds better then 'repro') parts, be entitled to the same Judging criteria, as will most likely other current smaller motorcycle manufacturers (READ: Assemblers really) Just check in any motorcycle magazine and see the 1/2 doz or so of the new offerings of 'Harley' styled motorcycle companies selling those $20,000+ 'Customs'. Yes that includes those 'New H-D Motor powered Indians'. They're new now, but in time these motorcycles will become 'Antiques'. Personally I believe Antiques M/C 's ended in the late sixties w/the introduction of disc brakes. And even thats stretching it. Just look thru any of our Clubs Magazines or even this Forum, and read about all the complaints/opinions expressed towards what is 'Original' or 'Correct' for a particular Model M/C and see how 'Hot' this topic can become. Imagine down the road when all these 'New' antiques are going to be Judged. Pity the poor SOB's when those feathers get ruffled. (Good thing the AMCA started issuing Judges 'Stun-Guns' along with calculators in 2025!) Anyway, I know I'll be arguing that my N.J. Legal, 'One-Off' Irish 'Malarkey' Special, built in my small shop, is just as qualified to be judged as those Early 1900's 'One-Off's built in those small shops then! Oh by the way, my bikes not finished yet and I'll be facing the same up-hill battle to Title as you. I have been told by several people that everything will go smoothly as long as you have all your receipts and MSO's for engine and frame.. Well guess I could always strip it and sell it for parts...We'll see....Later, Hrdly-Dangrs:) :)
01-06-2003, 08:39 PM
Maybe we should use the ATF ruling...like they use on certain kinds (class III) guns...if it wasn't built before "X" date by a licensed manufacturere, it "ain't legal". So maybe the club should specify that a motorcycle must be made by a manufacturer that is licensed (by DOT? DOT approved? something that is recognized as a production motorcycle, not a 'homebuilt'). Granted, in the early days, any guy with an idea, some tools, and some outsourced parts could make his own brand of motorcycle, (and we would all certainly love to find one in a barn), and it would be well-received at a meet, but that was then, and this is now....hmmm....tough call here. It is something that should be addressed before it happens. Otherwise, that contraption I built when I was 14 may show up at a meet someday soon!
01-06-2003, 10:24 PM
I agree with you about this land being Gods country (for some reason I just love those exit jokes, something about there being nothin funnier than the truth). And I'm sayin nothin bad about Jersey hell the Jersey Jets might be going to the superbowl. I love the Garden State., I have many fond memories of ridin my 47 knuck then in later years my 61 pan down to the "Irish Rivera" specifically Manasquan (exit 98) to party with the rest of the yahoos on the weekends from Memorial day to Labor day.
But when the NJ supreme court allowed Frank Lousenberg to replace that bum Torricelli on the ballot the line between law and lawlessness in your state became real fuzzy. The law is the teacher, so I can see how an obviously intelligent person like yourself cannot see the reasoning behind the present AMCA system.
I have not yet had either of my 2 eligible bikes judged yet. And I certainly am no expert on the rules. But in 35 years the only expert on the MALARKYCYCLE will be you and do you think your judge and jury of one will have made a fair and unbiased decision when you walk away with a senior first, peoples choice, and possibly an emmy award. :confused:
I rest my case,
01-06-2003, 10:28 PM
Can I reply to my own post?
I would like to thank Mark Z. and Jim for posting their exits.
It really made my day:) :p :D
01-07-2003, 12:33 AM
DOT? Hell they can't even argue the validity of their own spec's for 'DOT Helmets'. NOBODY, especially the MANUFACTURER, never mind the STATE OF NEW JERSEY is going to Accept Liability for any Deaths or Injuries caused by the 'DOT Approved Helmet' that they say we 'must' wear! But that's a another story. I argue: I build it, I get my NJ State Legal Title, Bike is Legally Registered and Inspected (Note to Markz: My understanding from the last representative I spoke to at the NJDMV: 1. Motorcycle must be completely assembled and meet all current safety requirements. 2. 'ALL' receipts as well as the MSO for Frame and Motor, must be presented to the NJDMV inspector who supposedly comes out to check the bike itself. 3. If everything is in order to his/her satisfaction, some type of paperwork is given to us that we then take to our 'Local' DMV to complete the Title/Registration/Plate issuing proceedure. 4. Leaving us with one 'Owner Constructed' Legal Motorcycle.) IF ANYONE OUT THERE ACTUALLY HAS GONE THRU THIS STUFF I'D LIKE TO HEAR YOUR EXPERIENCES! So then I ask: What is the difference between my 'Legal', 'Limited Production of 1', 'Malarkey' Motorcycle and those short lived Limited Production New Super 'X' motorcycles of a couple years ago or even the H-D Engine driven 'Indian' motorcycles being produced now! And how will the AMCA view (Judge) this 'Antique' motorcycle 35 years (25yrs) down the Road? Hey, I'm just asking? One day My nephews will own all my motorcycles and memorabilia...Hrdly-Dangrs
01-07-2003, 03:55 PM
My Own PS Reply: OK, I probably should have pre-ambled my questions/statements with the question of "What is the current Rule of acceptance for a motorcycle to be eligible for Judging in the AMCA." So now I'm asking the question. Appreciate someone telling me the Ruling as it exists. I do not have a Rule book to read from. That said, I still question: Will Motorcycles now being built by our fellow enthusiats be able to be Judged alongside other 'Newly Constructed' present day motorcycles 35 years (25?) from now, and how will they be treated amongst the 'Big Dollar', Factory Built Motorcycles in current production? MarkZ who currently is working no-doubt to produce a fine 'Replica' of an Early H-D Knuckle motorcycle, as well as my own Early Pan Style motorcycle should both be able to have our bikes Judged along side any 'CURRENT' 2003 Factory made H-D 'Heritage Softail' in the year 2038. After all both were Legally made/titled/serialized in the year 2003 by the SAME DOT AUTHORITIES. Again, I'm just asking...nothing personal....Later, Hrdly-Dangrs.... Hey 61panman; The Freedom of the 'People' to choose between TWO or more Candidates of differing Ideals must not be compromised by an 'Alledged' dishonest act(s) of either Candidate. The deadline time for a primary is ABSTRACT, it can be changed. The right to Vote is TIMELESS. Just my 'NJ RESIDENT' Opinion:p So where do I pick up that Emmy?
01-18-2003, 08:56 PM
Since there hasn't been any further posts to this since my last, I will attempt to keep it going so as to give other members a chance to wade in with their ideas or objections. I've acquired a Rule book on Judging since my last post and after reading thru it several times I do not see any rule of elimination to having these future 'Owner Built' motorcycles Judged by AMCA. The only 'passage' that refers to the motorcycle manufacturer falls under Section I, Paragraph 'C', General Policy: "The overall objective of AMCA judging is to evaluate an antique motorcycle which is in original condition or has been restored to the same state as when the dealer received the motorcycle from the factory." Any accessory shown in the original factory brochure or parts catalog, sales literature or other company publications to be used for the model year involved, will be accepted for judging. The final result of accurate and honest evaluation of a motorcycle by a judging team will be the determination of the deserved award for the owner's efforts. That said. I would think that the 3rd or 4th owner of a 'Kit Bike' or 'Owner Built' motorcycle with a Legal DOT/New Jersey Title/Registration would likely argue that his motorcycle should be eligitable to be judged alongside other type bikes of the same (Limited production bikes like those of smaller motorcycle manufacturers presently being built and sold) manufactured years. Perhaps a 'class' for these type motorcycles as well as specific rules should be created rather then totally eliminating them from any eligible judging as suggested by WLAHAL? Should we not give the 'New Generation' of 'Garage Built Specials' the same consideration as those 'Old Timer's' who built their 'Specials' so many years earlier? Maybe something like 'Limited Run/Owner Built'? Would this be possible? Would they be able to be judged for the same type awards? Personally I think a 'Hand Built' Replica like MarkZ's should be acknowledge in some way. One man's Hand Built motorcycle built in 2003 is going to be more interesting then the multi-tude of 2003 'Factory' built bikes. Of course we have time to think and plan for these bikes, but they will be coming down the road. Hopefully my 8 year old nephew will have a place where he can bring his Uncle's motorcycle to participate in our Club. You can bet that if he does he'll have a good record of documentation to show the Judges! What do you think?...:) ..Hrdly-Dangrs
Hardley, I guess only time will tell on something like that, unless they put it into words of the rule book now. The only thing I saw in your post that may be "scrutinized" is this sentence:
"The overall objective of AMCA judging is to evaluate an antique motorcycle which is in original condition or has been restored to the same state as when the dealer received the motorcycle from the factory ."
Where it talks about the "dealer" and "factory". As you are not a "factory" that may rule it out. However, I think it would be a good idea to have a "one off" class or "home built" class. I once saw a snowmobile type vehicle at Oley that was probably made back in the late 30s. Really neat, but what do you do with it? It would be neat if that could be judged for ingenuity reasons alone. I think alot of us grew up with "homemade" mini bikes and go karts, but would those be aloud to be "shown"? I still have my old mini bike that my Dad made me back in the 60s. Should I show it? (Sidenote, hmmmmm.... maybe I should restore that!) I still can see it now, painted bright yellow, with high handle bars, black vinyl seat with yellow piping, and.... sorry, flash back! Anyway, that is just my thoughts on that.
01-24-2003, 11:46 PM
Hope you guy's realize that I've been playing at 'Devils Advocate', BUT STILL.... I think some of the arguments are valid! Who wouldn't want to see an original 'Early' 1900's one off special that we might only have but a few pieces of paper and a drawing to go by to know that it even existed, show up at an AMCA meet! Well the same holds true for the next generations of 'Antiques?' that will show up someday down the road. I hope my nephew will have a place to bring his Uncle's 'ONE OFF', 'MALARKY Special' motorcycle that was built when he was 8 years old. And there's no better place I'd like more for him and 'his' son to bring it then my favorite club the AMCA!......Jim, I would like to see that 'HOMEBUILT' mini bike your dad built for you just as much as my friend's original 60's 'Bennelli'!! Course his Bennelli is eligible to be judged cause it falls within the 'Factory' and 'Dealer' wording. BUT STILL....your memories written down alongside a few photos of you and your DAD in a notebook and displayed with your 'HOME BUILT' mini' bike is a part, 'however small' of all of our 'Motorcycling History'! Will it ever be 'Judged' by the AMCA?.....Doesn't really matter 'cause it's been judged by you and found to be worthy of 100 point MEMORIES!.....and that puts it on par with any 'Factory' built, 'Dealer' sold $50,000.00+ motorcycle any day!....;) .....'Oh Danny Boy...the pipes..the pipes are playing'........sentimental old Hrdly-Dangrs
01-25-2003, 12:07 PM
Hi Hardly and friends:
I approached Peter Heintz, our chief judge, to get his input on this one, and he responds as follows:
"We are the Antique Motorcycle Club of America, and we are not the American two wheeled club without boundaries. What we know best and do best is judge antique motorcycles. Homebuilts and the like are cute or interesting, but have no criteria for judging, other than workmanship"
As the saying goes, the buck stops there, for now, at least.
Pete Gagan, Prez.
01-25-2003, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by 61 panman
At first it sounded like you were buildin a Harley but after finishin your piece I realized you was buildin one of them new fangled indians.
Ha ha! That's funny....and how true.
I was just looking at the neo-Indian in the latest Rider mag. That new motor is such a joke. A Evo motor with camo applied. The cam cover kinda looks like the old Flying Merkel -- sort of triangular in shape.
01-25-2003, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by Hrdly-Dangrs
My understanding from the last representative I spoke to at the NJDMV: 1. Motorcycle must be completely assembled and meet all current safety requirements. 2. 'ALL' receipts as well as the MSO for Frame and Motor, must be presented to the NJDMV inspector who supposedly comes out to check the bike itself. 3. If everything is in order to his/her satisfaction, some type of paperwork is given to us that we then take to our 'Local' DMV to complete the Title/Registration/Plate issuing proceedure. 4. Leaving us with one 'Owner Constructed' Legal Motorcycle.) IF ANYONE OUT THERE ACTUALLY HAS GONE THRU THIS STUFF I'D LIKE TO HEAR YOUR EXPERIENCES!
Back in the late 70s I built a WL completely from junked parts. No title. This was in Wisconsin and not NJ -- and also 30 years ago.
I had to take the bike out to the weigh station and some DOT inspector looked it over, then had me ride it in a couple of figure 8s. Good enough. They issued me a title with the words on it: "This Vehicle Built From Previously Junked Parts."
Of course the DOT inspector didn't know the speedo didn't work (stripped fiber gear) and the fork (RL I-beam style) was "tweaked" and the bike pulled to one side. But other than that it was okay....
I imagine registering a totally home-built job would be similar.
01-25-2003, 02:57 PM
Yeah, funny, but down the rode a bit these new 'Antigues' will qualify for judging simply because they were made (READ ASSEMBLED) by their 'Factory' and sold thru some sort of 'Dealer', (READ ANY SHOP THAT CAN AFFORD ITS DEALER STATUS FEE). But they will be of the same criteria as any 'Homebuilt' built by the 'Little Guy' in his garage. Using the same off the shelf parts produced by the same manufacturers of their day. Today's 'Garage Builders' are the same type of guys who back in 1903 built 0ne single motorcycle and sold it and who's motorcycle is qualified for judging. The answer to the Question: Judge it on its merits. Against the common practises of its time. It's engineering characteristics and assmbly practises and not against any other motorcycle. And right now there are several small motorcycle DOT licensed, insured and legal companies selling future 'Antiques'. And they will be showing up down the road. Why not start setting up rules and a class to welcome the 'Homebuilt's' as well. They're not going against the older 'Factory' and 'One Off' Antiques of the Early 1900's that our Club's reveres today. They'll have their own criteria to go by. In the Age of High Dollar Factory Super Bikes that anyone with money can buy, shouldn't get them any special treatment just because he held on to it for 35 years. We are all 'Garage' Mechanics building 'Homebuilt' motorcycles that just happened to have been 'Originally' built by a 'Factory'. I'll look at those 'Restored' and 'Well kept Original' 'Heritage' Harleys with serial #'s in the 5000's and say good job. But the bikes I'll be seeking out are the one's with the small book of pictures and various notations that depict his 'Homebuilt' Harley! Judging an old bike is just one part of the AMCA. Getting guys to bring their old bike's to the club and enjoy the Friendly, Family atmosphere are another. In 25 years we'll have already been into the 'EVO" period of Harley Davidson and the Super Jap Bikes. Most all the really old bikes are going to have achieved their Jr or Senior awards and will have become so expensive as to put them up with the 'Ferrari Car owners'. Elitism is already against the Japanese and British bikes. Going to get a little boring and monotonous judging those vast amounts of 'Factory Harleys' of the Eighties. (Don't count on any of the 'New' 'Indians' being around too long either) Hell the 1 year old Victory and Aprilla Dealer down the road from my shop has already gone out of business! I Hope there's a place for these 'Homebuilt' and 'Garage Wiz' guy's in our club.....and my nephew gets to participate with his new 'Old' motorcycle......:) ...Hrdly-Dangrs
01-25-2003, 03:18 PM
HJahn, time will tell if it's going to be easy and smooth sailing to register my bike. You know here in Jersey, if you've got a title for a 'junker' you need only to have it signed and turned over to get it updated to your name. Then you can proceed to restoring or modifying it to your liking. But when you start with just a frame and MSO, you better keep good records and receipts cause you have to completely build it before it can be turned over to the State inspector who decides if you'll get a N.J. Title to operate it. That means spending all your money and hard work up-front while all the time hoping they'll 'OK' it! Haven't met anyone yet that actually went thru the process themselves. It's always a guy who's friend did it and he did this or that and...blah..blah...blah. Seeing is believing...doing oneself is knowing.....right now I'm just hoping!..... :rolleyes: ...Hrdly-Dangrs!
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