PDA

View Full Version : '27 JD Cut Down Project - SWAN



Steve Swan
11-05-2018, 01:35 AM
I'm reluctantly starting this thread, i guess in part to publicly commit to my insanity and in part to get some ideas where might begin with my latest considered endeavor...

I recently came into a very nice mostly complete later 27JD lower end, and as i already had a fair amount of spare parts including a new set of Stuart's '29 cylinders, transmission, clutch, generator and other miscellaneous parts, i went ahead and purchased the lower end against my better judgement; the price was such that apparently i could not resist...

I'm thinking a period cut down would be fun and also make the project hopefully a bit more affordable (i have no chassis parts at all...) I am thinking maybe a tasteful custom built of period parts or a JD chassis of any year; it kind of depends on what i can find for chassis parts at a price i can justify continuing my commitment. Out of curiosity, wondering if it's possible to squeeze the JD engine/transmission into a single/45 frame; does anyone know of anyone who's gone to the effort of fitting a JD engine/trans in a single/45 frame? i know it's going to sound like a crazy idea to some, or rather than modify as conservatively and cleverly as possible an original single/45 frame, i've even been considering a repro frame such as Paughco, etc; repro not necessarily the direction i would care to go, but on the other hand, at this point, i want to be open to any ideas to not limit possible options...

As i know we all enjoy builds, here are 2 pictures of the lower end. The flywheels rotate silky-smooth, there is no up and down movement of the rods which are also straight, but i am not sure what direction i want the engine build to go. I am entertaining either staying stock and containing my budget for the engine build and i am also entertaining going down the road with JIMS pins, Carillo rods, and T & O flywheels to make the engine into a durable rider, but for the time being i'm going to give myself a bit of time to catch my breath before i go nuts with whatever direction i am going to go. The pinion pin/bushing clearance is on the edge at .0035" and the rotary breather is too loose in its bushing to be within acceptable limits, so right there are 2 things that need to be corrected. i guess if i could get some reasonable amount of money out of the flywheel assembly, this could help offset the cost if i went the fancy lower end parts route. anyway. now that i've gone public, i guess we'll have to see what i post next as right now there are more unknowns than knowns.

2313823139

whp
11-05-2018, 09:15 PM
Steve, we are on the edge of our seats now! Good to see you take on a cut down. I’ve seen a J shoehorned into a VL frame, didn’t look right though. If you’re looking for unique and great, Matt Walksler and Justin Walls build amazing frames for cut downs.

Steve Swan
11-06-2018, 02:46 AM
Hey Will ! thanks for your reply, exactly the sort of info i am looking for. i hope i don't disappoint as i am on a budget and can't pay off credit card debt like i used to before i was retired so the project may go in slow motion or fits and starts.... sucks getting old, but then i am grateful for my good health, my freedom to not have to show up for a real job, so i can't complain one bit nor wish that i had to work for a living to be able to afford my whimsy... i dd not know Matt Walksler was building frames and have not heard of Justin Walls. Do you have any weblinks or contact info?

Eric
11-07-2018, 12:42 AM
JD frame cutdown Finnigan Speer
23162

Steve Swan
11-07-2018, 12:46 AM
who is Finnegan Speer? Contact info?

sswaney
11-07-2018, 06:49 AM
He's long gone Steve
The Speer brothers were the HD dealer in San Bernardino, CA

https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/museum/explore/hd-history/hd-history-feb.html

Steve Swan
11-07-2018, 11:55 AM
He's long gone Steve
The Speer brothers were the HD dealer in San Bernardino, CA

https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/museum/explore/hd-history/hd-history-feb.html

Ha! I'll look for Finnegan when my time comes to go where he went!

sswaney
11-07-2018, 07:27 PM
Ha! I'll look for Finnegan when my time comes to go where he went!

May that be far far in the future Steve
Here is some more cutdown stuff
https://occhiolungo.wordpress.com/2011/04/07/dr-sprocket-makes-another-house-call-cutdowns-bobjobs-part-1/

Steve Swan
11-07-2018, 10:23 PM
Thank you for that fantastic link!

Eric
11-08-2018, 02:37 AM
Here another link : https://harley8valves.wordpress.com/category/cutdown/

RichO
11-08-2018, 11:00 AM
Steve, Finnegan worked for Dudley Perkins in S.F. before moving south. He and his brother also manufactured frame straightening tables with updated fixtures as models changed. I'm glad some one sent you the link to my very old articles #1 and #2 I wrote for Occhio Lungo. I wanted you to have them when I first read your new thread but I still use a flip phone, a pencil, stamps, and sealing wax. Hope they help you. Rich

Steve Swan
11-08-2018, 08:32 PM
Steve, Finnegan worked for Dudley Perkins in S.F. before moving south. He and his brother also manufactured frame straightening tables with updated fixtures as models changed. I'm glad some one sent you the link to my very old articles #1 and #2 I wrote for Occhio Lungo. I wanted you to have them when I first read your new thread but I still use a flip phone, a pencil, stamps, and sealing wax. Hope they help you. Rich

Thank you Rich! i did not realize cut down's were such as they are, some pretty sophisticated modifications and so popular back in the day. i can only imagine a JDH was the real outfit to have and all the engine mods these guys did on their own to make their motors really run. It's really great to see period pictures of these machines and an era within an era of how these machines were modified. The gas tanks (and frames) are particularly interesting; definitely a departure from factory in there efforts to give a sculpted, jaunty and lowered sleekness to the entire machine. i just printed off your 2011 article and as i am in the early very early stages of deciding what direction i am going to go, your article will provide grist for the mill. I don't have the "push" for a dater i would like to see this project finished like i did when i restored my '27 while i was still working (when i had earning power) and before i knew of more resource then than i know of now, so it'll be interesting to see where the project takes me as i take it. since my basis will be a JD, in comparison to a JDH, i may be coming for an angle of a poor man's cut down. we shall see......

Eric
11-09-2018, 01:22 AM
It's nice with a JDH but with JD also.

23172

23173

Steve Swan
11-09-2018, 01:52 AM
It's nice with a JDH but with JD also.

23172

23173

Eric, that's a very nice JDH there!

considering i don't know anything about cut downs, i realize i am going to have a number of questions coming out of the starting gate.

are these cut down frames originals or are they being reproduced? or, are there more than one type of cut down frame being produced by different people and if so, who?

considering i don't have a front fork (or frame) i am considering for the price a later EL/UL front fork such as a Samwel; wondering if the stem is same diameter and length as JD? and, is an EL/UL fork wider? also what is offset vs. inline? maybe the most relevant question is, is a fork like the Samwel worth considering or more modifications than worth the time/expense?

23174

as i said before, at this point, i'm just trying to identify chassis options including up to pre-war era.

i can imagine a kid, back in the day, getting a JD with a wrecked front end and finding a later front end and making it work with a JD frame, but then my imagination may be fantasy or simply unrealistic...

Steve Swan
12-20-2018, 06:06 PM
its been a while since i last posted, i haven't been able to free myself from not going down the cut down road and have actually been kinda busy goofing around with the project. attached are a couple pics of what i've accomplished and what lies ahead... i have my trans completely rebuilt; the new shafts/gears; thank you Bob Luland. the clutch pack is finished, Bob is doing the riveting work on the sprocket and race. i have rebuilt a '29 type generator, rear brake assy, and rear hub; for finishes, i am Parkerizing much as i go along. i have no frame or fork yet, but hope to at a not too distant date. it might sound a bit audacious, but i have decided to go with a 1926 tagged Sparton Model T car horn and have a 1915 "forked" Model T 8" headlight with a Spreadlight lens and fork on the way. i intend to mount the horn and headlight in somewhat the same manner as factory. i can get all new guts for the headlight from Lang's Old Car Parts. whilst i plan to run an original rear brake, i do fully intend to make the bike one that can be ridden on the streets in Fort Collins' lunatik traffic, so i'm either leaning towards a very nice two leading shoe front brake off a 1965 Yamaha YDS3 250 or am also considering going with a modest disc front brake, something off a modern dirt bike; i figure as long as i don't clamp on the brake lever excessively and have the mounting point well reinforced, i shouldn't rip things loose. for rims, i am leaning toward 21" drop center with modern tires, i am thinking a 21" rim with a modern tire should get me pretty close to an overall diameter of 28" but i need to do some checking to make sure my thinking is right before i pull the trigger. i have about 99.9% decided i am going to go with a whole new lower end, i.e., Carillo rods, JIMS pins, T&O flywheels and probably panhead pistons, maybe Venolia. too much to consider before i throw anchor; we shall see. a local buddy has a set of sport solo repro tanks, speedster handlebars but this is my overall rough plan, will be a sort of "Frankenbike" built up with era parts such as a poor dumb boy such as myself would have done back in the day but with some newer goodies such as more modern front brake brake and rims/tires. any thoughts anyone has i welcome with open arms. realizing i can't afford to go down the original ancillaries parts road, the idea struck me to use car parts; i got the Sparton horn for $35 off ebay, just serviced it this afternoon AHOOGA! and the Model T headlight parts for $180, so a helluva lot less than what i have in the Sparton and original headlight (Thanks again very very much Tommo!) on my restored '27. the 14" T horn and 2" larger headlight might look a bit rowdy, but what the hay, huh?

234592346023461234622346323464

TechNoir
12-21-2018, 03:48 AM
Looking good Steve. I was just wondering the other day how this project was getting on ;)

To mis-quote John "Hannibal" Smith: I love it when a plan starts coming together!

John

Steve Swan
12-21-2018, 08:59 AM
Looking good Steve. I was just wondering the other day how this project was getting on ;)

To mis-quote John "Hannibal" Smith: I love it when a plan starts coming together!

John

Thanks John for your kind words. yes, it is in the embryo stage.

Steve Swan
01-07-2019, 09:38 PM
i thought i'd post a couple pics to give a vague idea what direction my '27 cut down project seems to be going for the moment... i got this cool pair of automotive switches off ebay for $10, i am guessing they are 1940's era....? they fit inside the original switch panel perfectly, when i have a set of forks i will make up a bracket or brackets to attach the panel to the upper fork clamp. and... my new flywheels arrived today! when the time comes, i am planning with a local buddy's help to balance and true the flywheels. my 1915 Model T headlight and mount with Spreadlight lens should be here maybe by the end of the week. last week i sent out the 29 "JD Jugs" to get bored and fitted with pistons.

23606236042360323605

nuklhd
01-09-2019, 07:49 PM
I look forward to these updates steve. keep em coming.

Steve Swan
01-09-2019, 08:37 PM
I look forward to these updates steve. keep em coming.

Thanks nuklhd! i forgot to mention my cylinders are with Jon Neuman being bored and fitted with Venolia pistons and rings. he is fitting rollers to JIMS pins and Carillo rods and fitting new rollers to the drive shaft and bushing. it sounds like i should have everything back in a couple or three weeks, then my buddy and i will balance and true the flywheels. i will post pictures of the process when the time comes. i still need to find a frame and forks....

RichO
01-10-2019, 10:58 AM
Steve, I'd find a stock frame in fair condition and modify it to match the photo of Eric's. No one I know makes them today. They have to be made like they used to be, by the owner as Sam Oppie, Lance Tidwell, John Cameron, and the rest are long gone. Forks should be even easier. Love all the stuff you've gathered for the bike. Keep at it. Regards, Rich

Steve Swan
01-10-2019, 11:24 AM
Steve, I'd find a stock frame in fair condition and modify it to match the photo of Eric's. No one I know makes them today. They have to be made like they used to be, by the owner as Sam Oppie, Lance Tidwell, John Cameron, and the rest are long gone. Forks should be even easier. Love all the stuff you've gathered for the bike. Keep at it. Regards, Rich

Thanks Rich. i have been told those cutdown frames were originally made by or for short guys in the 5 foot tall area and are too small for taller guys, maybe like myself who is 5'9" i am debating just going with an original frame, of course i have no frame, but after surfing the internet looking at bikes with cutdown frames i think i like the appearance of the factory sport solo tanks more than the cutdown tanks. do you know who has specs or measurements on these cut down frames? when it comes to a frame, i certainly have not made my mind up. sort of hoping i can connect with someone who can either share more info or steer me in that direction.

RichO
01-10-2019, 04:19 PM
Steve, I to am only 5'9" but that doesn't mean that shorter or taller people can't fit these frames ( moving footboards, seat, adjust the bars, etc). A regular j model is tall for me with a 28" inseam. A cut down frame sets more like a knucklehead frame which was sort of their first frame to be dropped in the seat area for a lower center of gravity. If you scale out Eric's frame picture by blowing it up to about the scale of a full size j frame you'll have your dimensions in front of you. Think Kinko's! You can do it. Rich

Steve Swan
01-10-2019, 04:33 PM
Steve, I to am only 5'9" but that doesn't mean that shorter or taller people can't fit these frames ( moving footboards, seat, adjust the bars, etc). A regular j model is tall for me with a 28" inseam. A cut down frame sets more like a knucklehead frame which was sort of their first frame to be dropped in the seat area for a lower center of gravity. If you scale out Eric's frame picture by blowing it up to about the scale of a full size j frame you'll have your dimensions in front of you. Think Kinko's! You can do it. Rich

what is used for gas tanks on these cutdown frames? they look like they are special, home made. or were they a tank people bought back in the day? are these tanks being made today?

Rubone
01-10-2019, 04:52 PM
Most of the tanks were made from original tanks sectioned and chopped. Not something to do to a pair these days. Matt Waklsler built a cutdown a few years back, he may have some insight. Jethro Smith may be able to make you some. Replicant Metals also has several types of J tanks.

Steve Swan
01-10-2019, 06:56 PM
Thank you for your reply Robbie! would the best way to get ahold of Matt Walksler be through Wheels Through Time website? i will put Jethro in my file for future reference. another thing i notice quite different with these cutdown frames is that casting at the seatpost tube, it is a "double-barrel" sort of affair. is that casting a special part made for the cutdown? it doesn't look like a part off of a loop or later frame. the one constraint i have is being on a bit of a fixed income, so whatever part turns up that i can talk myself into affording is the part i will likely wind up with. i am afraid the cutdown frame and tank combo are going to be out of my league cost-wise, nonetheless, i shall check them out.

Rubone
01-10-2019, 07:54 PM
You can probably get Matt on Facebook! As for "fixed income" I'm not sure what that means, as mine is broken!!

Steve Swan
01-10-2019, 07:57 PM
Ha! it means spend what i have now because if i don't, i won't have it later. thanks for the facebook tip on Matt.

exeric
01-10-2019, 08:06 PM
I've seen J cutdowns with modified knuckle tanks, and Super X tanks. I think that is an area where your creativity, and resourcefulness can run wild. Low budgets have also produced great works of art. Throwing money at a bike isn't a guarantee of quality.

Rubone
01-10-2019, 08:25 PM
Throwing money at a bike isn't a guarantee of quality.
Communist!!

Steve Swan
01-10-2019, 09:32 PM
I've seen J cutdowns with modified knuckle tanks, and Super X tanks. I think that is an area where your creativity, and resourcefulness can run wild. Low budgets have also produced great works of art. Throwing money at a bike isn't a guarantee of quality.

Thank you Eric for hopping on board my cutdown/bobber whatever choo-choo train! i welcome your thoughts! i have to admit i really like the flowing graceful look of the standard frame and tanks over the actual Finnegan Speer cutdown frame. and i like the look of the standard battery box filling in the space between the seat post and rear cylinder. i made a decision on the wheels. i sent my rear hub to Buchanan's. they are going to lace one of their 21" aluminum (black anodized) Sun rims, a 2.15 (WM3) and when the time comes, i am going to fit a 21" front wheel with disc brake off something like a 125 or 250 modern-day MX bike. the tires i am going to use are Kenda 90/100-21 657 Challenger's. the mounted diameter of the tire is 28.1", the height and width is 3.7" which i think will go good with my desire to have a look reminiscent of the teen's-early 20's era wheels, 22" i believe. i really like the skinny bicycle look of the large diameter rims/tires...:cool: not sure what i would use for fenders, something very plain and smooth. or maybe with a bead running down the middle. there are some interesting fenders on the internet. i will post pics of the Kenda's and the interesting fender i found, but i imagine i need to find a fender that is 21" to fit the radius of the tire even if i am only using a shortened length.....? if any of you guys have ideas, please feel free to share them with me! about all i know for sure is i want the overall appearance to be parts used from the teens to no later than pre-WW2 with exception to modern rims/tires and front brake, so i guess that would also mean a modern front wheel from a dirt bike but with a WM3 rim to accommodate the 90/100 Kenda. also, i think i forgot to mention, my primary finish on the majority of the ferrous parts is Parkerized. i Parkerized the rear hub and the generator frame, end caps, etc and i think they all look really sharp.

2364623647

Steve Swan
01-10-2019, 10:18 PM
just got my PEEK treated manifold/nuts/nipples back tonight from one Mr. Tom Cotten. Thank you Tom! for the carb on my custom project, i am using the spare DLX38 that Tom rebuilt a couple years ago.

23649

aumick10
01-13-2019, 12:49 PM
Steve,
FYI, Dales channel at wheels through time has some good information on modifying a frame into a cut down,

Steve Swan
01-13-2019, 05:23 PM
Steve,
FYI, Dales channel at wheels through time has some good information on modifying a frame into a cut down,

Thanks for the tip, i'll check it out!

exeric
01-15-2019, 05:54 PM
I've thought about your project, Steve, and I would give serious thought to leaving the frame un-cut. Personally, I have only seen a few 'cut-downs' that I liked. Most look freakish to me and look like way more work than reward. I think they were the chopper of their day, but again, I don't see any frame modification advantage that couldn't be achieved more easily by tire size, and fork dampening. Also, I have always liked the length of JD tanks compared to VL tanks and think that gave the JDs their sleeker look. If anything, making the tanks narrow would achieve the custom look better that making stock tanks shorter. Real cut-downs have become a historic period mod, but real bikes are super scarce and it seems a pity to ruin a stock frame to make something that never actually existed from back in the day. I think justification would be there if reproduction frames were available, or if pieces of frames were combined to fabricate a cut-down.

Steve Swan
01-15-2019, 07:18 PM
Eric, thank you for candidly sharing your thoughts; exactly the thoughts and ideas I am looking for. I have been searching the internet for pictures, stories, etc of cut downs and the more I look and the more I contemplate, I really want to build this project out of stock parts. Not necessarily factory original parts, but stock parts from, before and maybe only slightly after the 1927 era. I am with you on your thoughts about cutdowns; I really do like the sleek factory “fleet as a flier” look of the mid to later 20’s era, albeit I think “fleet as a flier was used in Indian advertising from the teens… I have always liked stock bikes and back in the day, was a hard core “make it right” anal restore like factory original kind of guy. So, I am most certain I shall likely not be making any radical modifications, but on the other hand, will fabricate as need to to get the aesthetics that appeal to me. In any event, I have always been of the sort that when I see a rusty or damaged part, I see a motorcycle. This have decided this project is not going to be a cutdown or a bobber; it is going to be a custom, maybe something like some dumb farm kid (like me) pieced together with limited knowledge on a shoe string budget. As garish or ostentatious as it seems, I really am stuck on going with the 10”1915 forked Model T headlight and the 13” 1926 Model T Sparton horn. Brevet Brigadier General William H. Withington of Sparks and Withington was a U.S. Civil War general who had two sons, you can read more here -

https://www.mlive.com/news/jackson/index.ssf/2013/04/peek_through_time_jacksons_spa.html

I love 1800-1876 US history and thought it would be kind of fun to throw in that tidbit on Sparton; Sparton is alive and well, if you Google them, you will find that they make high end laptops that are designed to work even if dropped off the Empire State Building. In any event, I think if I do it right, the horn and headlight, albeit a bit “loud” will work out ok. Attached is a picture of Rick Ulreich’s ’29 bobber, this is the direction I see myself going, but will make some significant departures from original when it comes to wheel rims, tires, and a front brake. I just ordered a new reflector for the headlight and a couple of other parts from Lang’s. The horn is a beauty, I cleaned the armature, oiled the bearings, and what a wonderful sound it makes. Everyone i honk it for breaks out in a big grin or good laughs. In any event, thanks for your thoughts Eric and I sure do welcome hearing from anyone else and also anything of interest related to this custom project I am gathering parts for.

2368623687236882368923690

exeric
01-15-2019, 07:44 PM
I think your spirit for this project is right on, Steve. Like any custom bike, there are limitless possibilities, but the combination of parts is critical to an aesthetically balanced, and beautiful motorcycle. Of course that is in the eye of the beholder, and is at the whim of the builder. As the builder, you have to hope that your virtual vision is just as beautiful in reality. I think that is not that hard to achieve because there are many other bikes to look at, and you can develop a successful template from what other builders have done before. At the end of the day, you have to trust your own vision, and do what makes you happy.

Steve Swan
01-15-2019, 07:56 PM
I think your spirit for this project is right on, Steve. Like any custom bike, there are limitless possibilities, but the combination of parts is critical to an aesthetically balanced, and beautiful motorcycle. Of course that is in the eye of the beholder, and is at the whim of the builder. As the builder, you have to hope that your virtual vision is just as beautiful in reality. I think that is not that hard to achieve because there are many other bikes to look at, and you can develop a successful template from what other builders have done before. At the end of the day, you have to trust your own vision, and do what makes you happy.

when i saw the size of the fully 10" T headlight, it shook me for a few seconds! the same can be said for the automotive Sparton! it might look like motor company sacrilege to some and out of proportion to others, but i think i can pull it off. i have toyed with the idea of cutting down the trumpet on the horn, but until i actually have everything mounted the way i think it should be, i will not modify any parts. want to try to make things work aesthetically as they are without going toooo crazy. i really am excited about going with aluminum Sun rims and the modern Kenda tires. with the front disc brake, there will be a few major but not overpowering touches that will add to the practicality of the bike and yet be at least somewhat reminiscent of the 20's era i want to try to be faithful to.

Steve Swan
01-15-2019, 11:50 PM
so, here are a few pics i've come across of bike's that i am attracted to. each of these bike's have remained faithful to period factory parts. so far, it certainly appears i am going in a bit of a different direction, using old car parts, modern rims, tires and front brake. Hi Alan!

Eric
01-16-2019, 06:32 AM
Cutdown is lightweight, no light, no horn, more lower with more speed.

23695

Steve Swan
01-16-2019, 09:50 AM
Thanks Eric, yours is a beautiful example of a cutdown; certainly my JD is not in league with the JDH. i understand the last 4 pics i posted are not a cut down, but more on the order of a "bob job." with the additional expense, potentially having to modify an original frame, i have pretty much decided i am going in a different direction. and i think my custom is not going to be a bob job either.

aumick10
01-16-2019, 10:46 AM
Steve,
I know you want a disc brake front end, I don't blame you they way other drivers can be.
Have you considered installing a late model Harley springer with a disc brake, or install a disc to an original JD springer.
Cheers,
Mick

Rubone
01-16-2019, 12:08 PM
My guess is one hard emergency stop with a disc on a J fork and it would be twisted like a pretzel. They were barely strong enough for the miserable drum of the time.

aumick10
01-16-2019, 12:22 PM
Twin discs and duct tape?

Sidecars put a big side load on the forks. Were these susceptible to twisting.
Where the "I Beam" front ends developed to alleviate this twisting.

exeric
01-16-2019, 02:54 PM
I agree with Robbie on the J fork with a disk brake. Late J front brakes were hill holders at best and never designed to take the stress of modern brakes. If a person really wanted to use a J fork with disk brakes, I think a well thought out (and attached) truss on the rigid leg would be in order.

Steve Swan
01-16-2019, 04:11 PM
My guess is one hard emergency stop with a disc on a J fork and it would be twisted like a pretzel. They were barely strong enough for the miserable drum of the time.

Robbie, thanks for that reminder. Food for thought as to what to do. do you think the later truss type rigid fork could be any better? or is the weak/problem area that the wheel axle, spring fork and rigid fork are all independent of each other and yet all three are connected to each other by the rocker plate and the torsional stress would twist these parts in the area where the caliper (or brake backing plate) attaches to the rigid fork?

probably a later "I" beam type fork would be better suited?

Steve Swan
01-16-2019, 04:34 PM
I agree with Robbie on the J fork with a disk brake. Late J front brakes were hill holders at best and never designed to take the stress of modern brakes. If a person really wanted to use a J fork with disk brakes, I think a well thought out (and attached) truss on the rigid leg would be in order.

Eric, thanks for seconding what Robbie said. i will give this some thought. does anyone know of anyone who has fitted a front disc brake to the JD forks?

Steve Swan
01-16-2019, 04:39 PM
Steve,
I know you want a disc brake front end, I don't blame you they way other drivers can be.
Have you considered installing a late model Harley springer with a disc brake, or install a disc to an original JD springer.
Cheers,
Mick

Hi Mick,

yes i have thought of fitting a disc to a Samwel 1936 type front fork, but i like the looks of the early "castle" type JD forks. concensus suggest the JD fork will twist if the disc is used in an emergency stop. what to you mean by " install a disc to an original JD springer?"

exeric
01-16-2019, 05:15 PM
Excelsior beefed up their standard fork and called it a 'Military Fork', and those forks were quite strong. They used trusses and a wider crown plate assembly. Many J era H-D hill climber forks were trussed, and reinforced in similar ways. I think you could put a truss on the back of a H-D J fork and make it strong enough for a disk brake. If you do the alteration right, the fork could be restored back to original appearance without any damage if you changed your mind.

Steve Swan
01-16-2019, 05:45 PM
Excelsior beefed up their standard fork and called it a 'Military Fork', and those forks were quite strong. They used trusses and a wider crown plate assembly. Many J era H-D hill climber forks were trussed, and reinforced in similar ways. I think you could put a truss on the back of a H-D J fork and make it strong enough for a disk brake. If you do the alteration right, the fork could be restored back to original appearance without any damage if you changed your mind.

Eric, when you say truss, are you referring to the stamped bracket the factory already put in place on the back of the left hand rigid fork? or are you talking about additional reinforcement on the back of each leg of the rigid fork, regardless of year model? (in the case of the 28-29 type JD rigid fork, that plate on the back side of the left rigid fork, in original factory form is not secured well enough to withstand the force a disc brake would exert on it; could tear the plate of the leg.)

probably a later "I" beam type fork would be better suited?

JoJo357
01-17-2019, 04:46 AM
Hey Steve,
John Cameron & Lance Tidwell ran many 3000-5000 mile trips with those twin 1926 JD Flexi's, with front wheel disc they fabricated.
23699
23700
23701
23702

*M.A.D.*

Steve Swan
01-17-2019, 11:45 AM
JoJo357, thank you for sharing those pics of Mr. Cameron and Mr. Tidwell. the drum brake with the 6 black rubber covers clearly appears the front brake fitted to 1970-71 Yamaha XS650's. the other bike, somewhat difficult to tell, but from what i see, appears to be a Honda sohc CB750 front brake. good stuff! Where are those machines today? do they still exist in the same form as seen in the pics? i suppose the engines in their bikes were JDH...? i wonder what work they did to the fork to adapt these brakes to fit and work properly. it can't be rocket science, but it still requires a sound design. i have my buddy's '29 at my shop right now, so i am going spend some time looking at his fork to come up with some ideas.

aumick10
01-17-2019, 12:07 PM
Steve,
This is a general arrangement to install discs to a springer.
Cheers,
Mick
23705

Eric
01-17-2019, 12:15 PM
Steve, Yes Cameron bike always exist and are in the same family

Eric
01-17-2019, 12:33 PM
Steve in this pict JD Cameron rear disc brake installation

23706

aumick10
01-17-2019, 12:48 PM
Steve,
I measured the front hub on my 1978 triumph. They are set of for a 6" spacing between forks. This is too wide for JD forks. They also have a 1" axle that clamps to the forks. You could use this hub if you removed the dished disc and put on a flat disc. machine threads on the end of the axle.
A better option my be to go to a cycle salvage place with a tape measure and go shopping.
Something else to be aware of. Without any dampening on the fork springs, when you apply the brakes the front end has a tendancy to rise as it rotates around the axle. Can be disconcerting if you are not used to it.
Cheers,
Mick

T. Cotten
01-17-2019, 01:54 PM
Hey Steve,
John Cameron & Lance Tidwell ran many 3000-5000 mile trips with those twin 1926 JD Flexi's, with front wheel disc they fabricated.
*M.A.D.*

I apologize for going off-topic, Folks..

But Mssrs. Cameron and Tidwell had a profound effect upon me...
Can't be sure which because it was pretty informal at Bean Blossom in the 80's.

At least I asked the right question, when the reply was "I made my flywheels."
Then the skies opened up and angels descended as he confirmed my motor balancing instincts.

Without his encouragement, I might have made better career choices.

....Cotten

Steve Swan
01-17-2019, 02:05 PM
Steve in this pict JD Cameron rear disc brake installation

23706

Thanks Eric, for that pic of a rear brake setup. until now, i was thinking of running the factory rear brake setup with a front hydraulic disc given 90% of stopping power is on the front brake, but our conversations are making me wonder if mostly relying on the front brake if fork is up to the job. on the other hand, considering the type of riding i would be doing on this custom '27 would begin to be even close to the same as i do on my modern front/rear disc braked bikes; i.e., by comparison much more rapid acceleration to higher speeds and subsequent deceleration via braking on my modern bikes in contrast to the '27. and i would never run errands or go downtown on the '27, only up around Horsetooth Reservoir and otherwise to get out of town for trips along back highways. i think what i want to accomplish with a non-stock front brake is to not have to be ever-mindful that my rear brake only is not up to the job meeting today's traffic patterns. While i really like the idea of a rear disc brake and can certainly see with a side car rig, i am not sure i want to be dependent on a rear brake only set up. i like the idea of having front brake control; depending on which of my 2 modern bikes i am riding, one or other, i infrequently to rarely if ever use a front brake to stop unless it is to control the rear end... however, Mick brings up an interesting consideration i shall reply to next. if i go with a hydraulic front disc, it is going to be off a contemporary motocross/enduro or maybe a larger dual purpose bike, still a ways off, nonetheless things i want to be thinking about and i do appreciate everyone's input.

Steve Swan
01-17-2019, 02:19 PM
I apologize for going off-topic, Folks..

But Mssrs. Cameron and Tidwell had a profound effect upon me...
Can't be sure which because it was pretty informal at Bean Blossom in the 80's.

At least I asked the right question, when the reply was "I made my flywheels."
Then the skies opened up and angels descended as he confirmed my motor balancing instincts.

Without his encouragement, I might have made better career choices.

....Cotten

Tom! NOT at all are you going off topic! i welcome this sort of off-topic conversations; as i know i will keep talking about my custom project and i find it ever so interesting to learn about stuff such as you share!

Steve Swan
01-17-2019, 02:50 PM
Steve,
I measured the front hub on my 1978 triumph. They are set of for a 6" spacing between forks. This is too wide for JD forks. They also have a 1" axle that clamps to the forks. You could use this hub if you removed the dished disc and put on a flat disc. machine threads on the end of the axle.
A better option my be to go to a cycle salvage place with a tape measure and go shopping.
Something else to be aware of. Without any dampening on the fork springs, when you apply the brakes the front end has a tendancy to rise as it rotates around the axle. Can be disconcerting if you are not used to it.
Cheers,
Mick

Thanks Mick, for your reply. With regards to what front hub/disc setup to use, when/if the time comes, as you suggest, I plan to “go shopping.”
You bring up a welcome observation as to how the factory front end is going to respond/react with a front brake of any sort of actual stopping power. Given there is no dampening of the fork springs and the travel is limited (maybe 3 inches?) it is hard to know how quickly and with what force the spring fork/front wheel will rise in relation to the rigid fork being a fixed point… Not that I want to over-think this, I sure as heck don’t. But on the other hand I want to at least give some prudent consideration of what a disc brake would be like, how it would act and then on the other hand as long as the fixing points for the caliper are solid, it shouldn’t be that big of a deal. As to the front end rising, it couldn’t be much different that the action the linked brakes on my Moto Guzzi give me when I step on the rear brake pedal only; it has a proportioning valve, so when stepping on the rear brake only, the whole bike very slightly rises, which if one has not prior experienced, is somewhat disconcerting until one realizes it is simply how the setup performs. Having the front end of the JD rise, I can’t imagine would alter handling or affect safety, on the other hand the rate that it would rise, how far it would rise, especially if it would “bang out” to the top might be more than annoying. As I replied to Eric, I basically want a front brake so I don’t be ever-mindful of having limited braking power of factory rear brake only. On the other hand, instead of running a factory rear brake as I currently think I will, I suppose I could fit a more modern rear shoe or disc brake, run no front brake, but I am not keen on not having any stopping power on the front. Or have modern brakes front and rear, but then that would take the project even further away from original than I am already taking it away. Riding my restored ’27, having become accustomed to the externally contracting band brake, it really does an admirable job and although I’ve never locked it up (and don’t plan to!) I think it has adequate stopping power for the way I use a rear brake when I have a front brake. Anyway… ! Thank you for your thoughts; I truly welcome them! Hope this conversation isn’t too mundane or elementary blather or drivel for minds with far greater experience than mine. With exception to my stock Indian days of 3 and 4 decades ago, my experience is limited to stock more modern bikes of all makes from the 50’s through the 70’s and of course riding modern bikes from the late 90’s to current. One other consideration is that the esteemed Mssr’s Cameron and Tidwell must have done ok with their front-braked J bikes, so I am sure whatever I decide to come up with will be just fine. And… of course, if anyone sees any error or has any concern about anything I write, please do not hesitate to speak your piece! As well, I like seeing folks write commentary such as Cotton’s memories of Cameron and Tidwell, I want this thread to be fun, entertaining and informative as well as help me along with the project and give ideas to anyone else with similarly goofy ideas for a project such as I am engaging in.

Steve Swan
01-17-2019, 03:36 PM
are these dampers effective ?
23710

sswaney
01-17-2019, 05:18 PM
I've got to disagree with the assumption that a J fork and the 28-29 brake anchor gusset would be insufficient for a properly sized disc set up.
I know they look spindley compared to the later forks but if you've ever tried to straighten one you'd be surprised by their strength.
As for the brake pivot bracket. It's fully brazed to the fork leg. Extremely strong as well.
If you've got to go that route I think a smaller diameter disc would be sufficient, I mean whats the bike weigh? 375 lbs wet?

Steve Swan
01-17-2019, 06:20 PM
I've got to disagree with the assumption that a J fork and the 28-29 brake anchor gusset would be insufficient for a properly sized disc set up.
I know they look spindley compared to the later forks but if you've ever tried to straighten one you'd be surprised by their strength.
As for the brake pivot bracket. It's fully brazed to the fork leg. Extremely strong as well.
If you've got to go that route I think a smaller diameter disc would be sufficient, I mean whats the bike weigh? 375 lbs wet?

sswaney, thank you for your reply. personally, i have been thinking the same thing that the stock fork is substantial enough to withstand the force a disc brake would put on the fork, but on the other hand, not having experience like that of other folks, i would rather err on the side of precautionary diligence and prudence by asking for opinions to questions i am asking. i can't imagine a custom J bike weighing more than 400 pounds wet and i was thinking a modern disc setup off a dirt bike would have less stopping power on a bike such as the JD would weigh in comparison to the stopping power on dirt bike such as a Honda CRF250 weighing 235 pounds or a CRF450 weighing 260 pounds. these "dirt" brakes if used on the JD would not have the stopping power that a disc brake off a superbike such as the Honda CBR1000RR has. deciding what disc set up off what bike will take a little more consideration, but i am still veering toward a brake setup off a modern dirt bike which would be minimalistic and relatively simple and straight forward and since i am going with a front brake i don't want something clunky, heavy and even ineffective such as brake setups from the 60's, 70's and 80's. i want the bike to stop but not rip the front end off if i have to fully clamp down on the thing. at this point i am more concerned with the front end lift and what that would be like...

JoJo357
01-17-2019, 06:44 PM
I apologize for going off-topic, Folks..

But Mssrs. Cameron and Tidwell had a profound effect upon me...
Can't be sure which because it was pretty informal at Bean Blossom in the 80's.

At least I asked the right question, when the reply was "I made my flywheels."
Then the skies opened up and angels descended as he confirmed my motor balancing instincts.

Without his encouragement, I might have made better career choices.

....Cotten


Well Cotten, you started this. Here’s my story on Mssrs. Cameron & Tidwell. Met those guys on Main in Sturgus, somewhere in the 80’s. They had a crowd around them, and were having a good ole’ time. I managed to talk briefly to Cameron, and i expressed that i wished i had more time to... 'shoot the B.S.".
John said, ''get up here early and we’ll kick it around Main street''. So, instead of partying that evening--i hit the sack kinda early. I got up there around 9am--they were already there, and had breakfast too! John said, “I thought You was gonna’ get here early”?
Had a nice long leisurely talk with both of those characters, and politely drooled over their rigs in the process.
Talk about being humbled, those two rode those JD Flex’s from California, and we trailered from Michigan.
They got a jolt out of that 1925 JD i used to own back in the late 1970’s. The JD was 95% original when i scored it, including the decent-sized holes in the gas tank. One day, i was gassing up, and this old timer was walking around the M/C, scratching his head once in awhile, and looking puzzled. I could barely keep from laughing. Finally, he approached me and asked…”Sonny, how in the hell does that gas stay in that tank with those holes all over it”??*%*$#
I was going to pull his leg a bit, but i was kinda in a hurry, since that bastard took a long time to fill. I said, come here, look inside the tank. I coiled 10 to 12 feet of Marine 5/8’’x 7/8’’ fuel line inside, and made a nice bowed fitting to hold it steady out of sight at the tank funnel.
Worked good, i think i nursed 40-50 miles per...'hose-up'. 'Easy Rider' must have had more of an influence on me than i ever expected—haha.

*M.A.D.*

Steve Swan
01-17-2019, 06:52 PM
JoJo357, thanks for sharing that wonderful story! exactly what i want to see on this thread; make it fun and full of fond memories. and feel free to post any pics of these memories if you have them! i am trying to visualize hose inside rust-hole filled old tank!?!? how much gasoline could this Frankenstein hold? meanwhile, i am visualizing my front fork and wheel dizzily spinning through the air as the bike goes aflame the first time i put the clamp to the hydraulic binder i want to fit on my JD "custom."

Tommo
01-17-2019, 07:25 PM
To help ID the early front brakes I took some photos of my 28 and 29 J's and a pair of I beam JDH model forks I have so it is easy to see how HD developed the front brake anchor.
HD 1 shows the 1928 front brake anchor and shows how it cups the fork rather than going right around the fork blade.
This style had a tendency of pulling off the fork blade under hard braking, especially with commercial sidecar use.
HD 2 shows the 1929 front brake anchor that was produced to try and fix the problem. Note how the top of the anchor has two legs that wrap around the fork to try and hold the anchor more securely.
During 1929 Dealers here in NZ were issued with as many of these 1929 style anchors as they wanted so they could be retro-fitted to any 1928 models that were having problems.
HD 3 shows the 1929 I beam front brake anchor and HD 4 is a picture of a set of these forks.
I beam forks here in NZ were generally associated with being fitted to JDH Harleys only but period pictures do exist showing them fitted to JD's but not J's.
HD 5 shows the difference between the 1928 and earlier bottom fork casting as against the 1929 only style.
All these mods were made to make the front brake more efficient and reliable so Steve if you are going to fit a better front brake try to use the 1929 bits.
The HD factory didn't make these mods for fun they had problems and this was how they solved those problems.
Finally for the train spotters out there my I beam fork have the wrong springer legs fitted and that's why I have searched for the correct set that is seen in the photographs.
Previewing this post I see that the 1929 style appears first, then the 1928 style, sorry about that but I can't figure out how to change them around.

JoJo357
01-17-2019, 07:26 PM
Steve, if i remember correctly, i think Frankenhoser held close to a gallon, including air pockets--haha. Wish i would have kept her, that was a Great running M/C. And...i never rode anything with that much torque to this day--it pulled like a beast!!! I sold it for a deal on a Mint 1970-1/2 Z28. All original, 4 speed 'Rock Crusher' option, and a factory 4:10 rear end posi.. Went out west for a week, and my welcome home present from Detroit was yet another theft, this time the Z. Recovered 3 months later--minus the drivetrain. Insurance just payed out, with the 1st dibs option to buy it back. Found a wrecked 1970 Vette, with the LT-1 350c.i. 370hp, and put her back in shape, then sold it. That car was bad luck, but i wish i wouldn't have sold her-or the 25 JD. Oh Well.

*M.A.D.*

Steve Swan
01-17-2019, 07:31 PM
Steve, if i remember correctly, i think Frankenhoser held close to a gallon, including air pockets--haha. Wish i would have kept her, that was a Great running M/C. And...i never rode anything with that much torque to this day--it pulled like a beast!!! I sold it for a deal on a 1970-1/2 Z28. All original, with a factory 4:10 rear end posi. Went out west for a week, and my welcome home present from Detroit was yet another theft, this time the Z. Recovered 3 months later--minus the drivetrain. Found a wrecked 1970 Vette, with the LT-1 350c.i. 370hp, and put her back in shape, then sold it. That car was bad luck, but i wish i wouldn't have sold her-or the 25 JD. Oh Well.

*M.A.D.*

good stuff!!!! i wish you still had old Frankenhoser too! any pics?

Steve Swan
01-17-2019, 07:44 PM
To help ID the early front brakes I took some photos of my 28 and 29 J's and a pair of I beam JDH model forks I have so it is easy to see how HD developed the front brake anchor.
HD 1 shows the 1928 front brake anchor and shows how it cups the fork rather than going right around the fork blade.
This style had a tendency of pulling off the fork blade under hard braking, especially with commercial sidecar use.
HD 2 shows the 1929 front brake anchor that was produced to try and fix the problem. Note how the top of the anchor has two legs that wrap around the fork to try and hold the anchor more securely.
During 1929 Dealers here in NZ were issued with as many of these 1929 style anchors as they wanted so they could be retro-fitted to any 1928 models that were having problems.
HD 3 shows the 1929 I beam front brake anchor and HD 4 is a picture of a set of these forks.
I beam forks here in NZ were generally associated with being fitted to JDH Harleys only but period pictures do exist showing them fitted to JD's but not J's.
HD 5 shows the difference between the 1928 and earlier bottom fork casting as against the 1929 only style.
All these mods were made to make the front brake more efficient and reliable so Steve if you are going to fit a better front brake try to use the 1929 bits.
The HD factory didn't make these mods for fun they had problems and this was how they solved those problems.
Finally for the train spotters out there my I beam fork have the wrong springer legs fitted and that's why I have searched for the correct set that is seen in the photographs.
Previewing this post I see that the 1929 style appears first, then the 1928 style, sorry about that but I can't figure out how to change them around.

Hey Tommo! Great to hear from you! Thank you for taking the time to take and post those pictures! whatever year fork i use, i want to do whatever is necessary to keep it original. since you have these forks that are assembled, can you tell me the distance between the inside of the rockers? That I beam fork has to be a sought out for item. if i go with an earlier fork, then i will have to make up something like this. 23716 right b4 i saw your post, i was just on ebay to see what is out there for modern dirt bike hubs and i found this, 2003 CRF450 Honda front hub with caliper, $68 - 23717 i asked the seller to tell me the distance from one side of hub to the other. first i need to take a look at that year CRF caliperto see what is involved with making a mounting system for the caliper, $79.... 23718

Tommo
01-17-2019, 08:21 PM
6 5/8 inches

Steve Swan
01-17-2019, 08:32 PM
6 5/8 inches

Tommo, THANK YOU. that gives me plenty of room!

sswaney
01-17-2019, 08:45 PM
Great stuff!
Not to wander off topic too far, but years ago I had a J model spring fork that was heavily reinforced.
I have searched my picture files to no avail. But it had a layer of material sweated on the outside edges of the tubes that was approximatle 2/3 of the total length of the tubes. It looked factory it was so nicely done. Anyone every see a fork with this modification or know what it was for? Tommo's mention of what a side car load can do makes me wonder if it wasn't for that purpose. I've never seen another and always regretted selling it.

Steve Swan
01-17-2019, 08:53 PM
Great stuff!
Not to wander off topic too far, but years ago I had a J model spring fork that was heavily reinforced.
I have searched my picture files to no avail. But it had a layer of material sweated on the outside edges of the tubes that was approximatle 2/3 of the total length of the tubes. It looked factory it was so nicely done. Anyone every see a fork with this modification or know what it was for? Tommo's mention of what a side car load can do makes me wonder if it wasn't for that purpose. I've never seen another and always regretted selling it.

sswaney, not to worry; we're good! anything related to the JD is welcome here!

JoJo357
01-17-2019, 09:35 PM
good stuff!!!! i wish you still had old Frankenhoser too! any pics?

Unfortunately, i had the JD for a short time, but I'll check the archives Steve. That was many moons ago!
Did You ever check out that 29 Partial JD lead Steve?

*M.A.D.*

*Dragnet: "Just the Facts Mam"--"Just the Facts".
*Walter Brennan: "No Brag, Just Fact".

Steve Swan
01-17-2019, 09:38 PM
Unfortunately, i had the JD for a short time, but I'll check the archives Steve. That was many moons ago!

*M.A.D.*

*Dragnet: "Just the Facts Mam"--"Just the Facts".
*Walter Brennan: "No Brag, Just Fact".

Definitely worthy of seeing! Frankenhoser must have been back i am guessing in the days when we were poorer boys.

Steve Swan
01-18-2019, 01:37 AM
Did You ever check out that 29 Partial JD lead Steve?


oh... sheeit. i have not.... and i accidentally deleted the pm you sent me. i just tried sending you a pm but your box is full...

JoJo357
01-18-2019, 02:25 AM
Definitely worthy of seeing! Frankenhoser must have been back i am guessing in the days when we were poorer boys.

You hit the nail on the head Steve. Sell one, buy another days. I cleaned out my mailbox--fire away.

*M.A.D.*

Steve Swan
01-18-2019, 12:53 PM
You hit the nail on the head Steve. Sell one, buy another days. I cleaned out my mailbox--fire away.

*M.A.D.*

pm sent....

JoJo357
01-18-2019, 02:38 PM
Hi all,
Found this cool website when Cotten and i were reminiscing about those 'BoozeFighters'. Has an article 1/3 way down on Dee Cameron, under Table of Contents. It's worth spending the time looking over this site!
23719
23720

https://occhiolungo.wordpress.com/

*M.A.D.*

aumick10
01-18-2019, 10:25 PM
Steve,
When trying to engineer a new system, there is a lot of issues that have to be taken into account. I will try to identify them, but will probably miss something. I have done this modification on other bikes and hope this post will help you not make the same mistakes I did.

Wheel hub.
I think the Honda hub you are looking at is not a good choice. For starters, it is set up for a 21" rim, with the spoke angles set for that. It is also set up for straight spokes on the disc side, and the under/over bent spokes on the other side. If you don't want to run a 21" rim, you will have to make 3 different types of spoke. I have done this and I can tell you I find it a real pain.
This hub is also for a 223 lb bike.

Disc diameter.
A large dia disc on a small dia wheel will have more stopping power than a small dia disc on a large dia wheel.
For the bike weight and the type of riding you are likely to be doing, This is my opinion only, but I think a disc diameter in the range of 8" would be suitable for this service. Unless you are riding two up at 100 mph. Then all bets are off.
It is easy to overpower the tire which only has a small contact patch on the road at any time by putting too much brake on the bike. Not a good thing.
If the disc dia becomes to large in dia, it is common for the caliper to interfere with the spokes.

Caliper.
There are many different types of calipers available as OEM and aftermarket. I think you should look at a caliper with a single active piston on each side. Two pistons moving toward each other by pressure. This arrangement allows the caliper to be solid mounted to the mount. With active pistons on one side only, the whole caliper must move to bring the pistons together. This is a much more difficult mount to make.
You may need to go to a small 4 active piston caliper to be able to match the area to the master cylinder as discussed below.

Caliper anchor.
As other posts have mentioned, the JD brake anchors have seen to be problematic in certain circumstances. I personally think the tubes are strong enough to take the increased forces with a disc brake. I have no personal experience with the JD forks, so you may want to be guided by someone who has.
I have a rigid Harley with a OEM springer that the factory reintroduced in the 70"s I think. The brake anchor on these springers were a stud drill through the back tubes and welded on each side. I have had no problems with this system. Colony do a similiar replacement stud for the rear brake. Pt no 9208-4
The closer you can get the anchor to the centerline of the leg, the less twisting force will be transmitted into the leg.

The caliper anchor will need to be able to rotate at the axle end, otherwise you will lock up the suspension.
Diagram attached.23723
In an ideal world, the brake anchor would be the same length, and parallel to the fork rocker. This is probably not possible. The anchor center to center will be longer than the fork rocker center to center. I would at least make it parallel to the locker.


Master cylinder.
The piston dia is a very important dimension. It must be matched up to the master cylinder on the handlebars to work correctly. To small a master cylinder, it won't move enough fluid to work. To large a master cylinder, the brake won't work until you squeeze the hell out of it and it will then probably lock up.
Brake feel is a very individual thing, but the brake people have come up with ratios that give different feel. They recomend a ratio of in the 20-25 range for good feel and operation. This is the cross sectional area of all active pistons divided by the cross sectional area of the master cylinder.

I am going to go metric here for a sec so bare with me.
A caliper with two active 28mm dia pistons has a total cross sectional area of 1231.51 square mm.
A master cylinder with a 12mm dia piston has a total cross sectional are of 113.1 square mm.
Dividing these together gives a ratio of 10.89.
Once you get below to 15-20 ratio range, you start getting a "wooden" feel to the brakes.
Also, the larger piston area, the larger the clamping force.

Something else to consider also is that a lot of master cylinders are for 3/4" bars, they won't fit the 1" ? JD bars.

Last, but not least is the aesthetics.
My personal choice would to not get to "space ship" with the parts.
See the attachment for the style of wheel i would use.(CB550 Honda) This is not too far from the original round hub with two spoke flanges on the ends design.
23722
Some of the above are specifications you will need to follow to have a good system that is comfortable to ride.

This is your build so the actual selection of parts will be your choice.

Excuse the length of the post.

Cheers,
Mick.

Steve Swan
01-18-2019, 11:57 PM
Thanks, Mick, for taking the time to write your very thoughtful post. Clearly there are a number of considerations to properly fit a front disc brake to this old fork setup. i will take into consideration what you've written and give this some careful thought. i shall figure this out!

i intend to run 21 inch WM3 (2.15) rims front and rear with Kenda K657 Challenger 90/100-21" tires; the overall diameter of the mounted K657 is 28.1 inches so this is 1/2 inch larger diameter than the 3.85x20 later tires and the same diameter as 28x3 earlier tires. The 21 inch rims will help me achieve the skinnier appearance of the the earlier twins. The width of these Kendas is 3-3/4 inches.

aumick10
01-19-2019, 02:06 AM
Steve,
The 21" wheels will probably flex more than the original wheels. The spoke length doesn't help, and I have never seen a 21" wheel with heavy gauge spokes, although they may exist.
Did you get a PM from me?
Cheers.
Mick

exeric
01-19-2019, 09:19 AM
Late H-D factory 21" wheels are laced with heavy gauge spokes.

Steve Swan
01-19-2019, 09:36 AM
Steve,
The 21" wheels will probably flex more than the original wheels. The spoke length doesn't help, and I have never seen a 21" wheel with heavy gauge spokes, although they may exist.
Did you get a PM from me?
Cheers.
Mick

Mick, I didn't get your pm.

aumick10
01-19-2019, 10:02 AM
Eric,
I stand corrected,
Cheers

Tommo
01-20-2019, 02:30 AM
There's also un-sprung weight to be considered.
What effect does the increase in un-sprung weight have on the original design of a set of un-damped front forks.
I suspect Matt Olsen's mishap in a previous Cannonball might have something to do with the increase in un-sprung weight.

Steve Swan
01-20-2019, 09:55 AM
There's also un-sprung weight to be considered.
What effect does the increase in un-sprung weight have on the original design of a set of un-damped front forks.
I suspect Matt Olsen's mishap in a previous Cannonball might have something to do with the increase in un-sprung weight.

Tommo, what was the nature of Matt Olsen's mishap?

Tommo
01-21-2019, 01:41 AM
Sorry for the delay but I've been trying to find a picture of Matt Olsen's 1913 Sears he rode in the first Cannonball in 2010 and I can't find one.
It's reported that on a downhill section of road he hits a pothole and falls off. Broken bones are the reported injuries due to the bike going into a major wobble.
A picture of the bike will reveal a twin leading shoe Triumph conical hub front brake. A huge increase in un-sprung weight.
This is where I say I SUSPECT that the major increase in un-sprung weight caused a front suspension designed in the teens to lose control of the front wheel and in effect pogo Matt off the bike.
Weight and un-damped forks are a recipe for disaster, so when you start adding modern technology to old bikes all sorts of problems come into play.
I'm not saying don't do it but I am saying be aware of the problems and pitfalls you may be getting yourself into.
Harley had problems when they first put a front brake onto forks that were basically a 1908 design. Yes there were changes between 1908 and 1928 but what I'm trying to point out is that they had problems with that design back then and now we are going to ask a troubled design to accept an even stronger braking force. Hello!
The JD fork post elsewhere on this forum shows another one of the strengthening mods that Harley did to help solve the problem and when the VL came out they were not prepared to use a tried and true design so they used the I beam fork until they could come up with something better and that proved to be the fork that came out in 1936 on the knuckle.
Maybe I'm wrong with my take on this issue and I'd welcome anybody else's opinion on the subject. Feel free to criticise if you think I'm wrong.

TechNoir
01-21-2019, 03:29 AM
I have been following this debate on the pro's and con's of adding a front brake to a 20's HD with interest.

It ocurs to me that george Brough "borrowed" Harley's fork design and modified it and used it on his bikes which also had better brakes then the Harley bikes. He called them "Castle Forks" Is there any merit of using Brough type forks?

John

Steve Swan
01-21-2019, 12:04 PM
Thank you Tommo and thank you John for your thoughts.

Tommo, certainly adding unsprung weight to these old forks requires thoughtful consideration and i'll do my best to do so. that i why i am thinking the hydraulic disc parts off a modern dirt bike might be best, they are small and they are light weight. using the master cylinder, caliper and disc from the same model will be a "matched setup" so the braking power should be there. another option would a lightweight drum brake off a small displacement dirt bike such as Kevin runs on his #97 Cannonball bike on his Powerplus. i think the bottom line is at least three considerations; not too much brake and not enough as well as is the brake on this old design going to be fit and work properly and be safe. maybe i wold be better having no front brake and go with a non-factory brake on the rear. although the majority of stopping power is on the front brake, i am thinking in modern bike terms and i probably don't want to get stuck thinking having a front brake on my project is the only option for improving braking ability... what i do know is the JD accelerates just fine for modern traffic, certainly on back roads, but braking ability, albeit not quite adequate for modern traffic, is not something i want to have to be constantly thinking about when i am going down the road.

John, after the initial mention of Castle forks was made, i did a brief amount of internet "research" on the subject. pics i found don't show well the changes Brough made to the fork to (i assume) accommodate his front brake. i'm not sure where i could obtain a picture of Castle forks that would give me an idea what mods i might consider to a set of the 25-27 J-type forks.

reflecting on the past posts of this thread, especially considering the exploits of Mssr's Cameron and Tidwell, i think maybe we are in agreement running a front brake on J-type forks is doable but not without problems if not given the amount of consideration necessary for a front brake setup to be fit right, work well and above all be safe.

PS - i had heard from a local buddy about Matt Olsen's fall at an earlier Cannonball. Although i personally know nothing this particular fall or about the factors causing his fall, i had heard he had a rear hub failure subsequently locking up the rear wheel. this mishap may have been while riding a different bike at a different Cannonball. Assuming the twin-leading shoe front brake fitted to late 60's-early 70's era Triumph's and BSA's is what i am thinking of is what Matt had on his Sears, these units were were not only a large diameter, they were heavy; i am guessing something at least 10 pounds if not closer to 15. certainly more brake from a weight standpoint, (if not stopping ability and aesthetics) than i would be comfortable with, especially on forks that were at least 12 years older and lighter in design than 25-27 J-type forks.

TechNoir
01-21-2019, 01:35 PM
Hi Steve,

There are not too many pictures online but if you look on the Brough owners club website there are quite a few of reasonable quality that don't show up on google searches.

Also, if you go to Jay Leno's Garage on YouTube and search his site for Brough Superior there are a couple of good videos showing lots of close ups of his Broughs. Later bikes used different forks but the earlier ones used the HD knock-off's.

If you wanted a set then Jake Robbins makes them. If you dropped him an email then he might be able to supply detailed pictures.

John

Tommo
01-21-2019, 02:19 PM
I cut this ad out of some magazine and put it in a scrapbook back when I was a youngster about 60 years ago.
Other than the ad no other details were recorded by me.
There's no evidence of a front brake anchor that I can see.

Steve Swan
01-21-2019, 02:30 PM
I cut this ad out of some magazine and put it in a scrapbook back when I was a youngster about 60 years ago.
Other than the ad no other details were recorded by me.
There's no evidence of a front brake anchor that I can see.

Tommo, you are always amazing !!! i love how you, as a youngster, cut out that ad and saved it for your time and the benefit of others. the "only" mod is see on the Castle fork appears the dampers "on top" and part of the fork and not below and as an add on like the dampers seen on early machines and such as Comp.D makes available:

23749

T. Cotten
01-21-2019, 03:40 PM
Tommo, you are always amazing !!! i love how you, as a youngster, cut out that ad and saved it for your time and the benefit of others. the "only" mod is see on the Castle fork appears the dampers "on top" and part of the fork and not below and as an add on like the dampers seen on early machines and such as Comp.D makes available: It would be lost forever, if not for one individual's insight and dedication.

I always appreciate, and save many of Tommo's contributions!


...Cotten

Rubone
01-21-2019, 04:42 PM
Steve, these are examples of the reinforcement H-D did on the lightweight forks as used on the B/C series singles when they attached brakes. The early one was sweated on the rear while the later on was sweated but had fingers wrapped around the leg.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/olmMBd.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmolmMBdj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/SNpvgY.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmSNpvgYj)

Steve Swan
01-21-2019, 04:49 PM
Hi Steve,

There are not too many pictures online but if you look on the Brough owners club website there are quite a few of reasonable quality that don't show up on google searches.

Also, if you go to Jay Leno's Garage on YouTube and search his site for Brough Superior there are a couple of good videos showing lots of close ups of his Broughs. Later bikes used different forks but the earlier ones used the HD knock-off's.

If you wanted a set then Jake Robbins makes them. If you dropped him an email then he might be able to supply detailed pictures.

John

Thanks for the links to reproduction Castle forks. i'll check them out to learn more.

Steve Swan
01-21-2019, 05:02 PM
Steve, these are examples of the reinforcement H-D did on the lightweight forks as used on the B/C series singles when they attached brakes. The early one was sweated on the rear while the later on was sweated but had fingers wrapped around the leg.

Hi Robbie, thanks for those up close pictures. the factory was doing their best to keep that reinforcement from letting loose. the more we discuss this and the more i think about it, i am prone to go with 25-27 type forks, and make up a clamp that goes around the rigid leg, preferably, i am thinking at least at this point, of attaching whatever caliper directly to this clamp and the rigid leg. i am also not done with the idea of a rear disc brake only, but i like the idea of a light weight front brake and running the original rear band brake. having worked off and on in a couple of our local dealerships, owning a couple modern dirt bikes and different types of street bikes, i've seen and worked on all sorts of ways caliper are attached to a fork leg. one thing i know for sure, the front brake system will be the only space age chassis ancillary.

i realize this thread is sort of all over the place, but i hope it may be helpful to anyone else entertaining anything similar to or related to anything i am trying to accomplish and i want the thread to be entertaining and fun.

TechNoir
01-21-2019, 05:19 PM
Steve, I am home now and able to access some pictures on my laptop. Here is a 1925 Brough in Sammy Millers museum and a close up of the front brake. The forks are a copy and modification of the HD item. I will email the full resolution picture to you so you can see a bit more detail.

http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bboard/attachment.php?attachmentid=23751&d=1548108870



http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bboard/attachment.php?attachmentid=23750&d=1548108846


John

TechNoir
01-21-2019, 05:29 PM
Found another


http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bboard/attachment.php?attachmentid=23752&d=1548109584

http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bboard/attachment.php?attachmentid=23753&d=1548109619


John

Steve Swan
01-21-2019, 06:45 PM
Thanks John, i appreciate it!

Rubone
01-21-2019, 07:06 PM
Two lightweight dirtbike discs to distribute the load to both sides and eliminate twist. And truss the legs like a hillclimber!

Steve Swan
01-21-2019, 09:54 PM
Two lightweight dirtbike discs to distribute the load to both sides and eliminate twist. And truss the legs like a hillclimber!

Robbie, if you have a picture handy that you would download of how hill climber legs are trussed, i would appreciate it. your comment about running 2 discs to eliminate twist makes sense.

running a drum front brake would minimize the twist, however there would still be some twist..... i suppose those links the Brough front brake has are to help minimize the twist.... in the past, i have considered the front brake a Hummer, Bantam or Tiger Cub, but did not pursue because i do not know the stopping ability of these brakes which i suspect is not great but probably up to the job at hand. the other option could be a small drum brake off something like a early 70's Honda XL250 or XL350. i have a beautiful twin leading shoe front brake off a 1965 Yamaha Catalina, but it is too heavy and the diameter is so large as to be immodest.

Rubone
01-22-2019, 12:08 AM
Bantam and Cub are as wimpy as the OEM J brakes.. I am putting Rickman Zundapp wheels on my Trials Cub, cool conical brakes. Why not lace up alloy rims while you are at it? Somewhere in my stuff I have a Kawasaki dirtbike wheel in 21" with a small brake. I'll have to look at it. Some of the cool chopper kids are running such brakes.

Here is a boardtracker with a trussed fork.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/TTE93S.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnTTE93Sj)

Steve Swan
01-22-2019, 01:09 AM
Thanks Robbie, for the fantastic picture! Indeed, i AM going with new anodized black SUN alloy rims from Buchanan's. i can only imagine Rickman Zundapp front brakes are rare as hen's teeth. interesting you mention Kaw dirt bike brakes; i have been surfing ebay looking at different front brakes from late 70's through early 80's and what i found i like the best so far is a 1980-81 KX250 unit. the backing plate is magnesium, i think the brake diameter is 5.5 inches, the hub is a nice looking conical unit and it has a user friendly way to make what appear minor modifications to hold the backing plate stationary with the fork. i think the axle diameter is 15 mm, so it is about 1/8" larger diameter than the JD axle. attached are pics of the Kaw brake.

TechNoir
01-22-2019, 07:21 AM
i can only imagine Rickman Zundapp front brakes are rare as hen's teeth.

There are two rear brakes/hubs in the USA on ebay now. The guy says he is parting a complete bike, might be worth dropping him a note.

John

exeric
01-22-2019, 08:53 AM
I've thought about fitting a BMX disk brake to one of my old bikes for safety in traffic. I don't know if that is practical, or if it has the requisite performance, but for $40 it might be worth a look. These are made for mountain bikers and I have to imagine they can put high demands on their brakes. I've made quite a few hubs out of aluminum, and steel and I think that would have to be done to use any single, or dual front brake. These brakes may be junk, but I would like to have one in my hands to see.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bicycle-Front-DISC-BRAKE-SET-160mm-ROTOR-CALIPER-CABLE-Cruiser-BMX-MTB-Bikes/392163943777?hash=item5b4ecae561:g:3y4AAOSwt0FZCSI V:rk:38:pf:0

Steve Swan
01-22-2019, 11:15 AM
I've thought about fitting a BMX disk brake to one of my old bikes for safety in traffic. I don't know if that is practical, or if it has the requisite performance, but for $40 it might be worth a look. These are made for mountain bikers and I have to imagine they can put high demands on their brakes. I've made quite a few hubs out of aluminum, and steel and I think that would have to be done to use any single, or dual front brake. These brakes may be junk, but I would like to have one in my hands to see.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bicycle-Front-DISC-BRAKE-SET-160mm-ROTOR-CALIPER-CABLE-Cruiser-BMX-MTB-Bikes/392163943777?hash=item5b4ecae561:g:3y4AAOSwt0FZCSI V:rk:38:pf:0

Eric, i have a hi-end mountain bike, the rotor (in bicycling parlance) is 1.8 mm. As thin as the rotor is and the diameter of the hole circle where the rotor attaches to the hub being so small i think the rotor would get ripped off or burn up trying to stop a 250+ pound motorcycle. my mountain bike is a "29" (29 inch rims) and weighs around 30 pounds. Also, reading your threads and posts over the years, seeing your gorgeous machines, despite your modesty, you are at the least a competent machinist and fabricator. i can't imagine making a hub, but then i don't have the equipment to do so. What have you made hubs for and do you have a picture or two of them? (i rejoined AMCA in 2013, i seem to recall you were working on an Indian Ace or a 4...?) i would love to see some of your examples of your work because when i read BoschZEV, ShakyJake, or the wealth of research and experience Bobbie has, i feel like i am a barely toddling amongst giants.

Steve Swan
01-22-2019, 12:11 PM
There are two rear brakes/hubs in the USA on ebay now. The guy says he is parting a complete bike, might be worth dropping him a note.

John

Thanks John for the tip. if the rear hub seller is 501bikes, i just contacted him. Is this the seller you are referring to?

PS - seller just told me Zundapp front brake SOLD.

Steve Swan
01-22-2019, 06:31 PM
so, i probably jumped the gun a little bit, sometimes my enthusiasm gets the better of me. i got the rear wheel back from Buchanan's earlier this afternoon, so i went to shop and mounted the tire, i used a heavy 3 mm MX tube like i did on my first '27, even though what i am using is a SUN WM3alloy rim. the tire (Kenda K657 90/100-21) diameter is a full 28 inches, the width 3-1/2 inches and the spokes are .142" diameter. i put a 41t sprocket on and am on the lookout for a factory drum. i got the T headlight cleaned up, the reflector isn't half bad for 104 years old, although it could be better. the reflector had some sort of horrid yellow tarnishing or the like, nothing would remove it including actual nickle cleaner, i found some aluminum blue jel cleaner i had and it removed the yellow with not a whole lot of serious rubbing action.

237762377523774

Steve Swan
02-12-2019, 10:35 PM
oh boy! just got my birthday gift today thanks to Jon Neuman! Thank you Jon for your help! Next is finding the time when my local buddy Wiff can help me set up the lower end following Uncle Frank's balancing instructions; will take pictures of this procedure. i sent the front hub to Buchanan's yesterday; they'll have it Thursday. the 7" conical hub is tastefully attractive, off a 1981 Kawasaki KX250, very light, the backing plate is magnesium and the hub is aluminum, i plan to make up a short bracket that will lock the backing plate to the back side of the stud on the rigid fork, this bracket will only be about 2-1/2" long. i've made a deal on a '29 frame and a 25-27 type fork and a set of 1914 repro 4-1/2" fenders, i should have them sometime in April. i have my rear wheel assembly with brake complete, i'll take some pics of it and the front wheel after i get it back from Buchanan's.

23891238922389323894

Steve Swan
02-19-2019, 01:45 PM
i would appreciate if someone would tell me the rod diameter for the fender braces on a 1914 twin model. Thanks in advance!

Steve Swan
02-21-2019, 01:52 AM
the pinion-side face of the T&O flywheel was a little rough, so i took a precision ground 4 inch square flat steel plate and gave the face a couple thousand figure 8's with oiled 400 grit paper. will give a few hundred figure 8's with 600 grit followed by 1200 and the face should be smooth enough.

23968239692397023971

Steve Swan
03-07-2019, 01:26 AM
Does anyone remember Duane Dreesen? Duane moved on to the big shop in the sky a few years ago. i have a story about Duane to tell that is related to my '27 custom build, something of his he gave me he made me promise i'd never sell, that was at least 35 years, divorces, being a single parent and many miles and several home abodes ago that i've hung on to and as goofy as it seems to use it, i am considering that it may belong on my '27 custom, it presently hangs on my shop wall, you can see i in the background of the one picture i attached. Duane was friends with Paul George and i was friends with both of those good and helpful men.

i've been posting my very slow progress but not feeling much love, so feeling bit lonely, thought i'd post a bit more.

making slow but steady progress getting set up to balance and then true flywheels, have all the equipment, i will post pics when we start the process following Uncle Frank's method.

making slow but respectable headway gathering parts, thanks to aumick10 i have a nice frame and front fork on its way, we plan to meet each other sometime in April.

i now have front and rear wheels back from Buchanan's, will post pics someday soon. the front 7 inch conical drum brake i am going with is really tastefully good looking and the backing plate strap to hold the plate from turning will only be about 2 inches long, it will attach to the rear stud of the left rigid fork, i think it will turn out good, be a solid design and stop the bike especially using the original rear brake.

i am thinking of using a Mesinger racing type seat or do they lack sufficient support for any distance? Would anyone happen to have a decent one you'd consider parting with? but first i would appreciate hearing if they would be at least half-comfortable for a 100-200 mile ride.

does anyone know who restores reflectors, re-silvers them? there is a place called Uvira in Grants Pass, Oregon that applies a reflective aluminum coating up to 90% reflective as silver, but the reflector body has to be nickle plated before the process by Uvira can be put on. i am assuming the original reflectors were silver.

does anyone know what these exhaust tips on this bike are called, if they are available and who might sell them?

24095 24096

TechNoir
03-07-2019, 07:51 AM
Hi Steve, I have been following your progress closely although havenít posted much because there isnt much I can help you with on this project even though I am finding it fascinating to watch it progress.

Sorry you are not feeling much love, I am pretty sure there is lots on here for you so hang in there.

I am looking forward to seeing how all of the bits join up, in particular how the new wheels and brakes work, the original JD brakes are dire.

I canít help with re-silvering services in the USA, there are some companies over here in the UK but there must be someone nearer to you that can do it.

I canít help with the exhaust tip either I am afraid although seeing as you are asking i will assume that the Duane Dreesen part is NOT the fishtail silencer hanging on the wall of your shop?


Love

John :)

Steve Swan
03-07-2019, 10:19 AM
Hi John! uda man! below's the story behind the fishtail, (i used to have a '67 blue/silver Thruxton, wonderful bike). your love made me feel bunches better! and you are a veritable Sherlock Holmes, or if you prefer, you could be Watson.

The Velo is a genuine original item, complete with a small dent on its underbelly, looks MSS. it was given to me over 35 years ago with the promise i would never sell it. The man was Duane Dreesen, he moved on over a decade ago to the big shop in the sky. he was in his 90's when he passed to the great beyond. We lived about 7 miles apart where i grew up in NE Nebraska. the silencer was on his sky blue o.p. '48 Chief and purist i used to be that silencer on that bike just looked plain wrong! after a few years of begging, Duane took it off the '48 and gave it to me with the admonishment to never sell it. so i didn't and haven't. i've carried it with me all this time and miles, divorces and single parent, have thought about selling it a couple times, but i simply just cannot. Duane was a real lovable and likable piece of work, you just couldn't help but like him as tight fisted as he was. he had a large Quonset hut that housed many old cars and a few old motorcycles. by old, i mean a 1904 Buick and several pre-10 bikes amongst other things. He had a 1937 Hudson four door Terraplane i think i could have talked him out of, but i was sane enough to realize i was nuts enough if i got it, i would never have been able to keep it if i got it... in addition to his Quonset hut, Duane must have had at least 50 old cars, trucks and tractors sitting in the field next to his house..... well....... anyways, i am thinking of fitting that Velo silencer to my '27 custom.... would that be too nuts, over the top along with my 10 inch headlight and my 13 inch horn? what's you gents thoughts? eh? i guess if i couldn't stand the looks, i could always take it off and fabricate something more to my liking. would be kind of fun to run some warm exhaust through it for Duane!

RichO
03-07-2019, 11:11 AM
Run it and critics be damned. Parts that tell a story are the best. It gives it it's unique soul. Bob jobs are all about the individual. I restored my 40 El to bone stock then added all the period aftermarket pieces to make it look like an AMA club bike at a Laconia rally back in the day. It just wasn't me though. After a couple of years it went in the shop for winter and when spring came it came out a bob job that looked like it came out of the barn to attend the 1947 Hollisiter rally. I've never been happier.

Steve Swan
03-07-2019, 11:39 AM
Run it and critics be damned. Parts that tell a story are the best. It gives it it's unique soul. Bob jobs are all about the individual. I restored my 40 El to bone stock then added all the period aftermarket pieces to make it look like an AMA club bike at a Laconia rally back in the day. It just wasn't me though. After a couple of years it went in the shop for winter and when spring came it came out a bob job that looked like it came out of the barn to attend the 1947 Hollisiter rally. I've never been happier.

Thanks Rich for that! having prior owned a pair of Velo's at the time Duane parted with that silencer, it does have meaning for me, once i have my frame and as the build goes, i am going to hold that silencer up to the it and see what might be possible. we shall see....! When Dad died, Duane took Dad's worn out but the body was still perfect '54 Buick. Duane wound up 'retiring' in the Wickenburg, Arizona area and took some of is toys with him. We always joked how Duane had so many things, collected parts whenever he could and never got any work done on them. For whatever the reason he was irrevocably attached to Powell scooter, he got endless amounts of razzing owning that Powell. i lost track of Duane after the mid-90's, heard he had died i'm thinking sometimes in the early '00's, wondering if anyone knew him. i know the George boys, Kelly or Ed or Matt of Des Moines might would know.... used to pal around with them a bit, haven't seen them since the 'late 80's. Their Dad Paul was friends with Duane.

TechNoir
03-07-2019, 03:34 PM
Steve, RichO beat me to it. This sort of build needs to be unique and part of you. I think you should 100% go with the Velo silencer. Hell if it turns out that you don't like it its not going to be hard to change it.

The Duane story is really cool so the silencer deserves to be given a chance.

Go for it.

John

Steve Swan
03-07-2019, 06:53 PM
Steve, RichO beat me to it. This sort of build needs to be unique and part of you. I think you should 100% go with the Velo silencer. Hell if it turns out that you don't like it its not going to be hard to change it.

The Duane story is really cool so the silencer deserves to be given a chance.

Go for it.

John

Thanks guys! Velo silencer it will be! as the inlet on the silencer is at a slight upward angle, i am figuring the the silencer will need to be about 10-15 degrees upswept. the silencer is surprisingly narrow, so it looks like it probably will fit between the rear stand and wheel.

Steve Swan
03-07-2019, 07:11 PM
here's my wheels. i think the front brake is really going to be easy to fit and work well. i like how clean and simple it looks and not over the top too huge which lets the 21 inch diameter rim with the 3-1/2 inch tire keep its bicycle appearance and not make the front wheel look fat. i don't think the bike is going to need a whole lot of brake to stop it and this brake shouldn't exert undue forces on the forks or create any creepy rotational or torsional dynamics. the chrome 17 mm bolt is what i will use as an anchor (as was originally in its dirt bike application) and the bolt will fix the strap/bracket to to the stud of the LH rigid fork leg. the distance from the chrome bolt to the stud of rigid fork is barely over 2 inches. will take a bit of fabricating but nothing like putting a man on the moon in 1969! the chrome bolt is off a CB750 and the little chrome cable connection on the brake lever/arm is off a 1965 Yamaha YDS3, both bike of which i have personal history with! all i need now is a Suzuki part and i'll have a part from each bike the Japanese "big 4" manufacturers. i've owned my share of Honda's and Yamaha's but never a Kawasaki or Suzuki...

24097240982409924100

aumick10
03-07-2019, 07:42 PM
Steve,
Didn't NASA miss one of their targets because they mixed metric and imperial units?
I don't know how much braking power you have picked up, but it looks the part.

Steve Swan
03-07-2019, 08:01 PM
Steve,
Didn't NASA miss one of their targets because they mixed metric and imperial units?
I don't know how much braking power you have picked up, but it looks the part.

Hey Mick! i guess i'll find out the first time i squeeze the brake lever ! it DOES, as you say, look the part. i think it'll be at least sufficient, certainly at elast as good and i wold imagine better than the original rear brake and certainly not any less than what i've seen on a number of Cannonball bikes and i sure as heck don't plan to be riding bat out of hell style around local roads and can't imagine running more than 50-55 mph tops on open highways. i actually feel half-assed comfortable riding my restored '27 on local roads with only the original rear brake, so with a perhaps slightly less than nominal front brake and a definitely less than nominal rear brake i should end up with a nominal front brake...:rolleyes: i really wanted to keep the 21" wheel as uncluttered as possible so i think i accomplished that at least and i don't like the looks of a huge drum brake like i've seen on other customs.

RichO
03-07-2019, 08:19 PM
Steve, Those will do the trick. Remember the rear brake (stock J model) will lock up the rear wheel and that's too much. You only have braking up to impending skid and lockup. The front is good for rolling up to lights, when you have your other limbs engaged, and emergencies. Your good to go.

aumick10
03-07-2019, 08:28 PM
Steve,
Another month and you will have something to hang it from.
As you say, it is better than no front brake, you may be able to cruise at 60-80 mph with some confidence.
With a front and rear brake, the weight transfer gives you over 60% of your braking power on the front.
Is there something missing from the brake hub? I don't remember the fixed shoe anchor being open as it looks. I thought it was a bolted shoe anchor through the backing plate, with a nut and washer on the outside.
Cheers,
Mick.

Steve Swan
03-07-2019, 08:58 PM
Steve,
Another month and you will have something to hang it from.
As you say, it is better than no front brake, you may be able to cruise at 60-80 mph with some confidence.
With a front and rear brake, the weight transfer gives you over 60% of your braking power on the front.
Is there something missing from the brake hub? I don't remember the fixed shoe anchor being open as it looks. I thought it was a bolted shoe anchor through the backing plate, with a nut and washer on the outside.
Cheers,
Mick.

Mick, if i understand correctly your observations on the fixed shoe anchor and the bolted shoe anchor:

1. the "open" hole you see is a hollow post/stud (typically a fixed shaft) the brake shoes "rotate" on. and opposite this hollow post is the fulcrum pin that expands shoes. hollow i would imagine because Kawasaki designed it to increase weight savings.

2. the hole the chrome bolt threads into is simply a through (open) hole and was Kawasaki's design to simply hold a strap in place that connected the strap from that bolt to the fork leg, this hole serves no purpose other than to fix this strap to the backing plate and to the fork leg. this through (open) hole actually comes out underneath the middle of the rear brake shoe if any of all this i wrote is coherent enough to make sense...

3. so we are looking at three things in the picture: 1. The hole the chrome bolt threads into to hold the fixing strap that keeps the baking plate from rotating. 2. The open hole (directly behind the brass cable adjusting screw) which is actually a fixed hollow post/stud the shoes "rotate" on, and 3. of course the fulcrum pin that the lever actuates that expands the brake shoe which is about 1-1/2 inches wide by 7 inches in diameter.

hope this clarifies!

YES!!!!!!! THANKS TO YOU, in another month i will have "something" to hang all my pieces i've been collecting on !!!!!! Looking forward to meeting yu and THANK YOU AGAIN FOR YOUR GENEROUS HELP !

Steve Swan
03-07-2019, 09:01 PM
PS - cruising 60-80 on that jalopy freaks me out! 55 is fast enough! or maybe a mile a minute. will be interesting to see what the fewer teeth i will be running on the engine sprocket and rear wheel sprocket will actually do....!:cool:

Steve Swan
03-07-2019, 09:12 PM
Mick, what's cool if you study that brake is the fulcrum pin is hollow as well as the fixed shoe anchor and as is the main axle which i bored out to slip the original '27 axle through. High-tech 1980's motocross stuff, i am sure you noticed the Magnesium backing plate! so once i have the forks you sold me, then i can make the appropriate width spacers to center the wheel between the fork rockers and in line with the rear wheel.

nuklhd
03-10-2019, 07:05 PM
Steve, I read and enjoy all of the updates and progress. other than saying I dig this build, technically I can't offer anything lol. the "love" is there friend.

Steve Swan
03-10-2019, 07:54 PM
Steve, I read and enjoy all of the updates and progress. other than saying I dig this build, technically I can't offer anything lol. the "love" is there friend.

THANK YOU nuklhead! I APPRECIATE YOUR WORDS OF ENCOURAGEMENT! the project is tapping my resources, so every now and then my knee's start knockin'! but knockin' knees is nothing new to me as every spare coin i've ever had after the family is cared for and living expenses are met has ALWAYS gone to motorcycles! (and a few antique firearms, and at least an annual motorbike trip!) i'd rather use some replaceable or not otherwise terribly valuable or difficult to find oddball parts to piece the project together. so, i am using what i have or parts that have some meaning to me. My dad's first car was a 1917 Model T which i think i mentioned earlier and of course i shared the Duane Dreesen story on the Velo fishtail silencer. as out of place as some of the parts will be in respect to most the pictures of cut down's i've seen i think if i give things some thought to how to fit the parts together it will look at least as good as Frankenstein!

Steve Swan
03-12-2019, 11:31 AM
My buddy Wiff weighing the lower end parts yesterday afternoon. Wiff is 76, he's been riding since he was 12, every New Year's eve right before midnight he takes his bike out and goes for a ride until right afte the clock strike midnight, that way he can say he rode out of one year and into another, Wiff hasn't missed his New Year's ride in over 40 years. He was a machinist for Kodak for 35 years. Wiff worked for a well-ran local mom & pop repair shop for 27 years along with working at Kodak; i got to work as a mechanic the last 3 years the shop was open. Ray's Motorcycle; Ray has been a locally competitive racer his entire time in the motorcycle industry, he's 70 now, he started when he was 16. attached is a picture of Ray the day i finished my '27's restoration.

241272412824129

T. Cotten
03-12-2019, 12:36 PM
I wonder, Steve,..

If that rod top would weigh different if the rod was level?

Balancing is flatulence in a hailstorm, anyway.

(Particularly without certainty of the original factor.)

....Cotten

aumick10
03-12-2019, 01:09 PM
When weighing the rods, the centerline of the rods must be horizontal, regardless of which end you are weighing. If they aren't level, the weights will be slightly out.
If the total weight of each end is very close to the total rod weight, you can use a fudge factor of 1/3rd the difference applied to the top end, and 2/3rds applied to the bottom end.
You must be within a gram or two to use this, otherwise, keep weighing until you do.

Of course in the Southern hemisphere, you weight the rods upside down.
Cheers,
Mick

T. Cotten
03-12-2019, 01:23 PM
But its still just a buttburp, Mick!

The percentage of a few grams is nothing.
Even less if you choose another factor.

It just makes you drill (or add) more, when you might not notice any performance difference anyway.

With a brand new modern rod, however, one must jump through the hoops.

....Cotten

aumick10
03-12-2019, 01:34 PM
The balance factor is a very subjective number.
Most people wouldn't notice the difference between different balance factors, but they like to know their motor has been balanced.
What most people don't realize that any balance factor will typically only smooth out a v twin at a specific rpm. No point in balancing for 5000 rpm if you only ride at 3000 rpm.

T. Cotten
03-12-2019, 02:20 PM
The balance factor is a very subjective number.
Most people wouldn't notice the difference between different balance factors, but they like to know their motor has been balanced.
What most people don't realize that any balance factor will typically only smooth out a v twin at a specific rpm. No point in balancing for 5000 rpm if you only ride at 3000 rpm.

I wouldn't say a 'specific' rpm, Mick!

I'd call it a serviceable range of rpm, with a wide plateau instead of a peak.

Too slow of an idle makes them hop, so that's definitely off the curve.

....Cotten

aumick10
03-12-2019, 03:02 PM
I read a 2005 post on this issue that had a very good explanation of the effects of balancing.
Most of my experience is with street Evo's and drag bikes.
The drag bikes were built to a very specific set up to run over 200 hp at 7500-8500 rpm.
Those balance factors were used for mechanical reliability, rider comfort did not come into it, especially for electrical items.
Street bikes are not a sensitive to different balance factors, so these have a wider plateau as you mention.

Cheers,
Mick

T. Cotten
03-12-2019, 03:28 PM
What was the factor, Mick?

...For twice the rpm of a street machine?

Thanks in advance as always,

....Cotten

aumick10
03-12-2019, 03:37 PM
Tom,
It was over 20 years ago, but from memory it was over 60%. This was only part of the overall design specs.
Light wheels but heavy rods and pistons.
We would usually have to add weight to the wheels, typically lead or Mallory metal.
Mick

T. Cotten
03-12-2019, 03:56 PM
I remember sixty became the "sweet spot" back then, Mick!

But in the early '80's the speed shops (like Lakeshore) used 52%, and they ran smooth, too.
(And it seemed like mine jumped quicker.)

That was for Pans that back-calculated to ~57% OEM.
But 'modern' machines had different frames than Steve's, too.

....Cotten

aumick10
03-12-2019, 04:01 PM
It just goes to show how subjective the balance factor is.
Bike weight, gearing, riders style all come into account when deciding where to balance for.
Mick

T. Cotten
03-12-2019, 04:16 PM
It just goes to show how subjective the balance factor is.
Bike weight, gearing, riders style all come into account when deciding where to balance for.
Mick

Y'know, Mick,..

I never found a V twin that was really out of balance.

(Seen a few riders though.)

....Cotten

aumick10
03-12-2019, 04:24 PM
The factory balances motors when they manufacture them, but only to a cost and range of tolerances.
If a V twin feels really out of balance, you had better check your crank pin real quick in my experience.
It also depends on how much padding the rider is carrying.
Mick

T. Cotten
03-12-2019, 04:51 PM
Yes I agree, Mick!

Most 'bad vibes' are mechanical issues.
But if the Factory missed the 'ideal' of sixty by three points, consistantly, that's a lot of rod top.

At risk of repeating myself, re-balancing an overhaul of a 'stock' HD is only an exercise in feeling good.
But grossly different rods or pistons demands it to sleep good.

Even if it would have run fine anyway;
My concern for Steve's project is the much different frame, which might like a different factor better than the modern ideal.

...Cotten
PS: As some of us have experienced, just losing a top motor mount bolt is enough to 'put the motor out of balance'.
(A lot of lot of padding "payload" aught to dampen vibes!)

ryan
03-12-2019, 06:07 PM
I was just reading about static balancing a Harley motor. I do not know enough about it to know if the process is correct though.

http://www.caimag.com/wordpress/2011/05/02/harley-engine-balancing…-reverse-engineering-and-the-balancing-process…-how-i-do-it/

T. Cotten
03-12-2019, 06:30 PM
I was just reading about static balancing a Harley motor. I do not know enough about it to know if the process is correct though.

Ryan!

Before I spread my cookies where I don't want them,
This isn't the guy who shaves his female tops to supposedly match the males, is it?

....Cotten

ryan
03-12-2019, 07:15 PM
Cotten,
It sure is the same guy. He sure tore the one rod up.

From the article:
"Why I decide to take the weigth of the connecting rod end instead of the piston,if customer want to change piston in the future to similar he will not change the end result by much and also connecting rods are there for a longer period of time ,first thing to do when doing job like that is planning where you want to take off the material without weakening the rod itself."

Rubone
03-12-2019, 07:47 PM
If you have females needing to shave their tops you've got a bigger issue than balance!!

T. Cotten
03-13-2019, 03:16 PM
Gosh Ryan,

We can now call over-thinking-to-the-point-of-destruction a syndrome;
I fear he got this bad idea from S&S techs.

The rod tops, the masses that actually move in different directions, were virtually the same to begin with.
(Who can tell which is which in my attachment?)
Half a female rod should always weigh more than the same proportion of the male because its a heavier rod.

But the bottom halves move virtually in unison, as one mass.
Mutilating the female is pointless and futile.

...Cotten
PS: And I'm absolutely certain Wiff knows better, Steve!

Steve Swan
03-24-2019, 10:24 PM
Thank you Gentlemen, each and everyone for your replies. I have been down since Friday, March 15 with the worst cold I have ever had in my 67 years. Haven’t been sick in over 4 years, but this one kept me house bound until yesterday when I ventured up into my shop to help my buddy get the tanks fitted on to his ’29. Anyway.

Again, thank you again for sharing your experience. Re-reading your comments, the one thing I need to redo is get the rods as level as my eye can tell and then re-weigh the rods while paying attention to Mick's "fudge factor." And since I am in the Northern hemisphere, no worries about weighing the rods upside down….

Cotton, you mention “with a brand new modern rod, one must jump through the hoops.” In terms of my application, can you explain a bit more? (Also, I am going with a stock, unaltered JD frame, thanks to Mick!)

I am planning on following the procedure discussed in Uncle Frank’s Questions & Answers; i.e., assemble the flywheel assembly complete, minus one piston, pin, spiral keepers and rings. With the assembly sitting on perfectly level knife-edges, the flywheel should stop at any point in the 360 degrees of rotation.

For what it is worth, I called Truett & Osborn and happened to have the good fortune to speak with Paul Osborn; they set up my lower end on my restored ’27 and I would say it is amazingly smooth at all speeds, no hop down low and above 50 mph, things start getting buzzy. When I asked what balance factor they set their flywheel balance to, Paul said 60%. Out of sheer ignorance on my part, is a 60% balance factor any different than balancing the flywheels so they stop anywhere in their 360 degree rotation? If you can explain this in country school 8th grade terms, I would be best for this brain as I have no where the experience or expertise you gentlemen possess.

On the one hand, I want a smooth as possible motor within as wide and rpm range as possible, and on the other hand I realize we are talking about a ’27 JD which isn’t exactly rocket science, but it does have new flywheels, rods and pistons so I don’t want to, as Cotten says, “over-think to the point of destruction.”

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

aumick10
03-25-2019, 12:37 AM
Steve,
I can't remember if you mentioned which flywheels you are using. OEM or Truet & Osborne. This will change the way you balance this motor.
Regardless of the wheels, the procedure for measuring the weights is the same. As you mentioned, the rods need to be horizontal when you weight each end. I think cotton posted a picture of a good tool to ensure this.
You will find that the Carrillo rods you be will much heavier than OEM rods, maybe twice the weight. Using OEM wheels will mean more work to balance them by adding or removing more weight. T&O wheels are probably heavier to start with ?
Because the Carrillo rods are heavier to start with, any discrepancies in top and bottom weight will be a bigger percentage of overall weight, if you don't get it right.

As mentioned in numerous other posts, the balance factor is very subjective. As a general rule, a lower balance factor will move the vibrations in the vertical plane, the higher balance factor will move the vibrations in the horizontal plane. This comes down to personal preference. I am surprised T&O used 60% as a balance factor for such a low revving motor. As you say, it is a bit "buzzy" over 50 mph, I would expect that on a lower balance factor motor. How is it at 100 mph?

Now to the actual balancing.
Once you have done all your measurements, and decided on what your balance factor will be, there are two ways to balance your motor.
In dynamic balancing, the total calculated bob weight, including the crank pin, is clamped to the crank pin and rotated. This is done on a dedicated machine, like a tire balance. This is typical of what the factories use. Can also be done on knife edges with a manual interpenetration of where the heavy spots are.
Doing this on a machine will tell you where to add or remove weight on the screen, probably even do this automatically, as you can see in a lot of OEM wheels.

The most common way for people to balance flywheels is the static method. This is as you described above. Setting up the flywheels with counter weights to visually identify when a flywheel will settle, regardless over where it is first placed on the knife edges. Adding or removing weight is an integral part of this process.
I don't have a copy of Uncle franks book, but it seems to me that was the best practices at the time, before we knew what factors influenced the engines feel. You may be lucky and have the parts add up to the correct bob weight.

I was taught to balance motors using the S&S system where you balance each individual flywheel.
I have found over the years that not all OEM wheels have the same density from the factory. Occasionally while drilling a hole in the wheel to add weight, I have come across an air pocket in the casting.
If the flywheel is balanced as a unit, this density difference can manifest itself as a side to side motion. This is unlikely to be, as it is probably such a small force, or felt, but it is why I prefer to balance each wheel individually. If each wheel is individually balanced, this effect it probably negligible. Once again, this is the way I know to do this.

Cheers,
Mick

TechNoir
03-26-2019, 04:11 AM
Hi Steve, I am sorry to hear that you have been feeling unwell, there was a particularly nasty virus going around the UK about a month ago which sounds very much like the one you have been suffering from and it flattened loads of much younger and fitter people than me.

I cant offer any more on balancing your crank other than to offer moral support and also to add that this topic is something that I have an interest in so I will be following your progress.

John

Steve Swan
04-10-2019, 11:38 PM
Thanks John for your empathy. the cold was a real bitch, flat 11 days, 1st time i been sick in about 4 years, still have a nagging cough into week 4. anyway. not too sick to find a few spare moments to get up to shop and play around a bit.

A big thank you to one Mr. Mick King, thanks to Mick, i now have a gorgeous '29 frame, a nice complete forks and 1914 front and rear fenders. fitted the left crank case to frame; some very minor dressing up of case and frame lugs and and everything fits flat making full contact. made 1/2 rear fender brackets and got one brace bent. got the skirts on the front fender, am going to attach with screws like later J's.

Wiff reweighed the rods and the S&S balancing kit does not have a bob weight that will fit the smaller flywheel crank pin taper, so he's making one up. will have some free time the first part of May, so maybe we can get the flywheel assembly balanced and trued....

2440124402244032440424405

Steve Swan
04-11-2019, 01:29 AM
i am using a set of Tom Faber's speedster bars on my bike; i took them in trade for mechanical work i did. the rise is only 2-1/2 inches and and draw (six inches) is such that it makes one, when siting on the bike, hunch forward and draw is such that wrists are more parallel with the bars than angled back. my question is: "Has anyone "adjusted," bent Faber's bars into a different position? i definitely do not want standard or board tracker bars. i am thinking if i could get another 1-1/2 inches (three) of rise and bring the draw of the spiral area back another inch or possibly even two inches i would be happy. another thought i have is to bend the two stems back where they meet the handlebar, this would move the bars a little further back... i have this tool, it works like a charm on 7/8" bars....

24407

Steve Swan
04-11-2019, 09:30 PM
more progress....

244122441324414

Steve Swan
04-13-2019, 10:45 PM
Big moment in Northern Colorado today!!!! after 4+ years, we got my buddy James Lafler's '29 rolling down the road today! Runs strong!

24433

Steve Swan
04-17-2019, 09:49 PM
got my fender brace rods and brackets made...... imho, i think the '14-type front and rear fenders with modern aluminum rims and tires and sport solo tanks are going to look kick-ass!

24454

Steve Swan
04-18-2019, 01:45 AM
Steve,
I can't remember if you mentioned which flywheels you are using. OEM or Truet & Osborne. This will change the way you balance this motor.
Regardless of the wheels, the procedure for measuring the weights is the same. As you mentioned, the rods need to be horizontal when you weight each end. I think cotton posted a picture of a good tool to ensure this.
You will find that the Carrillo rods you be will much heavier than OEM rods, maybe twice the weight. Using OEM wheels will mean more work to balance them by adding or removing more weight. T&O wheels are probably heavier to start with ?
Because the Carrillo rods are heavier to start with, any discrepancies in top and bottom weight will be a bigger percentage of overall weight, if you don't get it right.

As mentioned in numerous other posts, the balance factor is very subjective. As a general rule, a lower balance factor will move the vibrations in the vertical plane, the higher balance factor will move the vibrations in the horizontal plane. This comes down to personal preference. I am surprised T&O used 60% as a balance factor for such a low revving motor. As you say, it is a bit "buzzy" over 50 mph, I would expect that on a lower balance factor motor. How is it at 100 mph?

Now to the actual balancing.
Once you have done all your measurements, and decided on what your balance factor will be, there are two ways to balance your motor.
In dynamic balancing, the total calculated bob weight, including the crank pin, is clamped to the crank pin and rotated. This is done on a dedicated machine, like a tire balance. This is typical of what the factories use. Can also be done on knife edges with a manual interpenetration of where the heavy spots are.
Doing this on a machine will tell you where to add or remove weight on the screen, probably even do this automatically, as you can see in a lot of OEM wheels.

The most common way for people to balance flywheels is the static method. This is as you described above. Setting up the flywheels with counter weights to visually identify when a flywheel will settle, regardless over where it is first placed on the knife edges. Adding or removing weight is an integral part of this process.
I don't have a copy of Uncle franks book, but it seems to me that was the best practices at the time, before we knew what factors influenced the engines feel. You may be lucky and have the parts add up to the correct bob weight.

I was taught to balance motors using the S&S system where you balance each individual flywheel.
I have found over the years that not all OEM wheels have the same density from the factory. Occasionally while drilling a hole in the wheel to add weight, I have come across an air pocket in the casting.
If the flywheel is balanced as a unit, this density difference can manifest itself as a side to side motion. This is unlikely to be, as it is probably such a small force, or felt, but it is why I prefer to balance each wheel individually. If each wheel is individually balanced, this effect it probably negligible. Once again, this is the way I know to do this.

Cheers,
Mick

Mick, my apologies for being so slow to respond to your post of the great information you shared. twas during the time i was laid low with that nasty cold... it was great to meet you in person and have you look and advise on the flywheel balancing work that needs to be done. Yes, balance each flywheel, that is what Wiff and i are going to do. i will keep posting the process as the project moves forward.

exeric
04-18-2019, 05:49 PM
Your JD is looking great, Steve. I admire, and envy your project and know you are having fun finding the parts that fit your vision. Enjoy your pictures, text, and information.

Steve Swan
04-18-2019, 08:46 PM
Eric, thank you for following my thread, i always appreciate any and all your comments. It's hard to not be excited about these beautiful old IoE engines and everything that goes with them! It's going to be interesting to see how the oversize inch Model T headlight and horn look as the project continues to flesh out. And, i am really married to the idea of using the Velocette fishtail silencer... A good friend of mine, i think i mentioned his name, Duane Dreesen, he was neighbors to us growing up, he had a Quonset hut full of all sorts of things, a 1904 Buick and early bikes, he also had a '48 Chief with the fishtail on it, i always gave Duane a hard time about the fishtail being on the Chief and one day in the mid-1980's when i was visiting him, he unbolted it from the Chief, handed it to me and said "Don't ever sell it!" Duane passed on to the great bike shop in the sky about 25 or so years ago, and the fishtail has been with me since as wall art. Always felt it a shame i didn't have a Velo to hang it on, and as i began this project i got the bright idea to have the fishtail go with this project. It is quite narrow, i think i can make it fit, will probably look a bit outlandish on the JD, but i want to feel Duane's smile....

aumick10
04-18-2019, 09:49 PM
I must echo Eric's comments.
After watching your build thread for the 27 JD, and seeing it in person, I am looking forward to you next build.
I love the idea that you are building a period bike, using period parts that look good to your vision of what it should look like.
Cheers,
Mick

Steve Swan
04-18-2019, 09:57 PM
I must echo Eric's comments.
After watching your build thread for the 27 JD, and seeing it in person, I am looking forward to you next build.
I love the idea that you are building a period bike, using period parts that look good to your vision of what it should look like.
Cheers,
Mick

Mick, THANK YOU ! the only thing that's going to be weird is that Velocette fishtail silencer.... as i said, a good friend gave it to me with the promise of never selling... so, i am going to see if i can fit it and give it a try....... i guess if i don't like it i can always take it off, but it should't look any more weird on a JD than it did on Duane's '48 o.p. blue Chief........

24461

aumick10
04-18-2019, 10:02 PM
Steve,
That is silencer is pretty large, it fits nicely with your horn and headlight.

Steve Swan
04-18-2019, 10:08 PM
Steve,
That is silencer is pretty large, it fits nicely with your horn and headlight.

yes it is..... the good part of it, it is as narrow as the '27 stock exhaust. we shall see.........:cool:

Steve Swan
04-18-2019, 10:17 PM
I must echo Eric's comments.
After watching your build thread for the 27 JD, and seeing it in person, I am looking forward to you next build.
I love the idea that you are building a period bike, using period parts that look good to your vision of what it should look like.
Cheers,
Mick

Mick and Eric, i have always liked stock bikes as they come from the factory with tasteful unobtrusive modifications. So, i want to keep the JD as stock as possible using period parts. The Model T headlight and horn and to say the least that Velo muffler is a BIG step out of my comfort zone. but, what the hay...... i'm trying to save what money i can, at least on some things take the path of least resistance and i want the bike to have a look of it's own that's apart from bobbers and cut downs, so i guess it is going to be a custom of sorts.

For a frame, forks, fenders, tanks, battery box color i have had the color gray in my head, looking at the gray primer on the frame, i am thinking i am going to go with a light gray with a blue tint and some sort of red striping. Thinking the gray-blue should give nice contrast to the rest of the Parkerized parts. i am leaving the transmission in it's original Olive finish, what little remains of the Olive. Debating if i should leave the cases raw or paint them gray-blue or some other color..... Olive Green......? right now i am thinking raw, but i really like the look of painted cases. i can get aerosol cans of paint with hardener in them (push a button in the bottom of can to release hardener) kind of thinking painting them the gray-blue, but raw aluminum might be a nice contrast to the gray-blue frame..... debating leaving original finishes on horn and headlight, but the horn's pretty scratched up and the headlight looks like somebody painted it with a corn cob.

sveger
04-20-2019, 02:04 AM
Steve, as being the owner / builder of the first of the four bikes in your post from 01.16. I can tell you for sure my frame is "cut down". Rear frame is altered such as the wheel is raised by one inch and the neck is raked in to give it easier handling. The front fork legs are shortened too. My bike have approx 2 inch shorter wheel base and is by using 18" wheels and frame modifications lowered close to 2 inches, for full story of "The Muroc Special"; http://www.veteran-mc.com/2018/07/the-muroc-special-cutdowns-predecessor.html Regards Sverre aka AMcN / http://www.veteran-mc.com

Steve Swan
04-20-2019, 02:32 PM
Hi Sverre, thank you for post and your excellent link. Amazing the old cut down boys posted the highest speeds, 118 mph 2-cam and 115 single cam IoE bikes. Definitely understandable the factory was not happy with the results, but also speaks to the durability of a venerable engine design. Thanks for claiming ownership to your blue cutdown, having collected pictures off the internet of various cut downs during the earlier stages of my custom, yours is one that caught my eye immediately, standing out with it's low sleek appearance. it is nice to know the really great modifications you made to the bike to make it an very attractive example of period cut down bikes.

As i began gathering pieces to my bike and considering my personal situation, it became evident to me that the bike i wanted to build needed to fit my circumstances and my idea of what i thought/think i am setting out to accomplish. As a result, i don't think my project is going to fall in either category of cut down or bobber, and the original parts i am using are such that the bike could be changed into a more stock form, or for that matter if anyone wanted to modify any of the original parts, that would be an option also. as it is, i am going to use some parts that give it the look i can enjoy, namely the 28 inch modern wheels, Sport Solo tanks and speedster bars. The engine internals i've decided to go with will offer long term reliability, care free riding adhering to stock specifications without the concern a major moving original part breaking that could end in a catastrophic failure. As i am a more or less humble old farm boy, i am using anything i can within the context of my present personal abilities and constraints. Not wanting to back myself into a corner using Model T parts or the Velo muffler, i can always back out of using them with no regret and decide on something else should i want to. In any event, i am looking forward to see and ride the end result. Right now i am working on figuring out how to mount a period car tail light with another stop light like was on my dad's '27 (only with a green STOP lens). For me, at least half the fun building a custom for me is building my first bike with non-stock parts, as i have always kept my bikes in factory trim.

Steve Swan
05-24-2019, 12:17 AM
I'm not getting a whole lot done, but every little thing is one more step to get things rolling down the road. Got my brackets made for the tail/stop light combination. I truck tail light looks a lot better than i thought it would; it's not as big looking as appears in pictures. i found the STANLEY reflectors when i was going through some boxes, they kind of match the greenish-bluish stop light lens and help hide the bracket a car license plate mounts to, little out of context from what's original, but i've got a Kawasaki front brake, a Suzuki bolt and a Honda bolt on the project, so what the hay. The narrow Sport Solo repro tanks look sleek from the rear. They are new, i took them in on trade from my buddy for getting his '29 down the road. The short story about these tanks is i had to send them to Bob Gamache, they had to be heavily reworked to fit the frame and move tabs to correct places. Damn good thing the tanks were stripped, they were loaded with bondo, and had four major pinholes under the bondo. if the krap covering the pinholes had not been removed they would not have been discovered. i can see it now, me and my bike going up in flames. As far as who made these tanks, what i will say is they are NOT Tom Feeser's. i don't think it's going to be much longer before Wiff and i get the lower end finished, he's working on making a bob weight; the S&S truing tools we have, the bob weights are fit later flywheels. Long term, i've decided for the color of the tanks, fenders, chain guards and battery box i am going to go with a light grey/blue color. have been playing with the idea of some sort of tu-tone, maybe like frame and/or forks be a light grey or a light blue or maybe just the frame a grey or blue. or maybe some contrasting color. maybe just the frame a maroon or black...

24691246902469224693

Steve Swan
05-24-2019, 01:55 PM
I know i am repeating myself, BUT, this Velocette fishtail silencer used to be on a good friend's o.p. blue '48 Chief; we live a few miles from each other where i grew up in NE Nebraska. His name was Duane Dreesen and he had a pretty amazing collection of very old stuff, two vehicles that stand out was a 1904 ohv Buick and a 1937 Hudson Terraplane; i believe the '04 Buick was very first ohv engined production automobile. Duane frequented AMCA meets back in the 70's, and 80's, pal'd around with Paul George and Howard Wagner. Duane never got over being given so much grief for his obsession of Powell scooters. in any event, this fishtail came off Duane's Chief and if you new Duane, he rarely if ever parted with anything. I kept bugging Duane that fishtail did not belong on the Chief sticking way godawful up in the air, that he should give it to me, he finally broke down and unbolted it from the Chief and handed it to me with the admonishment, "Don't you ever sell that." Duane's been gone now probably at least 15-20 years, i've kept the fishtail since the late 80's, and as yet have not been able to get the idea of it not going on my '27 custom out of my head. last evening i explored all possible different positions i might be able to fit the silencer and wound up this position is the only option. I have sufficient clearances where clearances for brake rod, kick starter; round clearance is just over 2 inches. The trick is going to be fabricating a connecting pipe from exhaust pipes to silencer. i won't know what that connector is going to need to be like until i have the engine in the frame.

246952469624697

aumick10
05-24-2019, 02:03 PM
Steve,
Muffler looks ok there. Did you try it upside down?
Your brake rod looks to be hanging low. Mine up up almost touching the gearbox.
Another stupid question but does your throttle cable push or pull to go fast?
Cheers,
Mick

Steve Swan
05-24-2019, 02:17 PM
Mick, yes, the brake rod is low, that was part of my trying to get the silencer to fit upside down and backwards. not a stupid question at all, if i understand what you are asking, to go fast i turn the spiral in towards me and close my eyes real tight. Both spirals should both be right hand.

i'm surprised there isn't more active JD people on this forum. i'd like to have a few people making fun of the fishtail. and commenting on both our threads. they probably all wasted away from knuckle fever and are in the poorhouse. so sad. as it is, i have to go to JD farcebook to get all the attention i crave.

aumick10
05-24-2019, 04:02 PM
Steve,
Worked out my oiler problem.
I assumed the handlebars were assembled correctly. bad idea on my part.
I stripped both spirals and I have a left and a right. And of course they were backwards.
I will swap the spirals over and my oil pump will work as it is designed.

I found two different inlet towers, so i have just cleaned up a matching pair of 28's and have rockers to match.

Hopefully get the motor sealed up tomorrow.
Cheers,
Mick

Steve Swan
05-24-2019, 04:06 PM
Mick, what was your oiler problem? Sounds like you are making good progress!

Steve Swan
05-24-2019, 11:54 PM
Does anyone remember Duane Dreesen? http://norfolkdailynews.com/obituaries/duane-dreesen/article_ededa29c-759d-59d3-8785-96336880a9fe.html

Steve Swan
05-25-2019, 01:14 AM
If you haven't heard of Gene Austin, he put out many #1 jazz hits throughout the 20's. i remember Dad singing several of these songs when i was a kid. Wasn't until i found Gene that i realized where Dad got these songs....! Dad in is ROTC uniform astride his JD. He was a bit of a hooligan, i remember him telling me how he would prowl Burnett Woods in Cincinnati late nights, early mornings shining his spotlights into steam-covered car windows. Am sure if he'd been caught by the police, wouldn't have been good. Nowadays that's called impersonating a police officer.......

247112470124702

Steve Swan
06-02-2019, 12:28 AM
big milestone. got my Colorado title today for 27JD 13514. personally mailed to Montpelier, Vermont dmv notarized bill of sale (my buddy "sold" me my bike that was already mine), insurance card, state of Vermont dmv registration application form and Colorado in-state vin inspection (took the left crankcase to a dealer friend of mine). 3 weeks later received back Vermont registration and license plate. took the Vermont registration, Colorado out of state vin inspection, and insurance card to my local dmv this past Thursday; requested title and registration. Boom! Got the title in the mail today! 5 year collector plate's in the mail. at least in Colorado, no middleman "title broker" such as International Title, Broadway Title or MotoRecycle Title company is needed. since Vermont does not require title on vehicles 25 years and older, i can't imagine any state would not be obligated to accept Vermont dmv registration to apply for title in that state.

TechNoir
06-02-2019, 04:37 AM
big milestone. got my Colorado title today for 27JD 13514.

Fantastic news, that is something to celebrate. :) How far off is it from being complete?



Colorado in-state vin inspection (took the left crankcase to a dealer friend of mine).

This is something that always intrigues me. Here in the UK to get an inspection on an unregistered old vehicle you need to have a complete or near complete vehicle and the major components need to be original or period correct. I have read enough on here to understand the process in the USA and how different states vary, I just find it interesting that you can take just a half of a crankcase for inspection rather than a complete bike.

John

Steve Swan
06-02-2019, 10:08 AM
part of it might be having a dealer friend i've known (i used to work for him) the past 20 years to give me a vin inspection on a crankcase half and a buddy who "sold" me my bike. the rest is just how the system is set up, at least in Colorado and Vermont.

my buddy Wiff and i getting our schedules to mesh, we will get the lower end finished sometime soon. will continue to post progress as progress occurs.

aumick10
06-02-2019, 10:19 AM
Here in Nevada, you can register a bike with half a crankcase, but you cannot get a title automatically.
You have to apply for a bonded title. which releases the DMV from liability if anyone puts in a claim of ownership.
I had two bikes registered in Vermont, then changed the rego to NV, but still no titles.

Steve Swan
06-02-2019, 12:41 PM
yeah, i've done 3 or 4 obtaining title processes through the state of Colorado, takes time, patience and following instructions, seems like every one i did via the state process had some twist or turn that made each one different. i only had to go through the bonded title process once.

Steve Swan
06-02-2019, 10:41 PM
Fantastic news, that is something to celebrate. :) How far off is it from being complete? John

John, i have been in parts accumulating mode the past several months; i think i have everything except maybe a couple small items. My buddy Wiff and i are working on meshing our schedules so we can continue on getting the lower end finished. Will post when progress resumes. Glad to see you back on your 20F. i admire your work.

whp
06-03-2019, 11:52 AM
big milestone. got my Colorado title today for 27JD 13514. personally mailed to Montpelier, Vermont dmv notarized bill of sale (my buddy "sold" me my bike that was already mine), insurance card, state of Vermont dmv registration application form and Colorado in-state vin inspection (took the left crankcase to a dealer friend of mine). 3 weeks later received back Vermont registration and license plate. took the Vermont registration, Colorado out of state vin inspection, and insurance card to my local dmv this past Thursday; requested title and registration. Boom! Got the title in the mail today! 5 year collector plate's in the mail. at least in Colorado, no middleman "title broker" such as International Title, Broadway Title or MotoRecycle Title company is needed. since Vermont does not require title on vehicles 25 years and older, i can't imagine any state would not be obligated to accept Vermont dmv registration to apply for title in that state.

Congrats Steve!

I did the same process with terrible results. Minnesota gave me the middle finger when I gave them my Vermont registration. I went as high as I could go at the MN DMV and they did not accept the Vermont registration as anything other than registration. Also since I had started the process they would not release the vermont paperwork back to me and flagged my bike as "non registered". What a nightmare... I've since learned to just suck it up and go through the title process with a 3 year bond on it. It's expensive and I can see why nobody will title a knucklehead worth 50K sometimes. The sales tax would be crushing here...

Steve Swan
06-03-2019, 01:25 PM
Congrats Steve!

I did the same process with terrible results. Minnesota gave me the middle finger when I gave them my Vermont registration. I went as high as I could go at the MN DMV and they did not accept the Vermont registration as anything other than registration. Also since I had started the process they would not release the vermont paperwork back to me and flagged my bike as "non registered". What a nightmare... I've since learned to just suck it up and go through the title process with a 3 year bond on it. It's expensive and I can see why nobody will title a knucklehead worth 50K sometimes. The sales tax would be crushing here...

omg. the moral of your story for others pursuing title is know thy state's title laws and know them well. glad i live in Colorado. perhaps this discussion will be helpful to others. The reason i'm encouraging seemingly "off topic" discussions is so any matters related to my build might be helpful

aumick10
06-03-2019, 01:36 PM
In Nevada, a bonded title costs 150% of the original purchase price. Not the current retail price. (I hope)
Using a bond company, you usually end up paying 10% of this value as your out of pocket cost.
This makes the costs reasonable.

Steve Swan
06-26-2019, 11:10 PM
I've been off and on, fitting various parts and adjusting clutch and shifter controls. Got a brake light switch installed. Some nice brass caps for tanks. I wanted a front chain/clutch cover other than the '27-type, so i went with the 1916-1919 for something different, made up a little bracket for the rear of the cover. I'm going need to add patch in the rear of the cover where the front of the rear chain guard meet, but that's down the road at another mile-marker. i also had to slightly make the clutch throw-out hole in the cover a bit oblong and drilled a hole to be able to adjust clutch spring tension. All in all, I'm making some progress.

2510125102251032510425108

TechNoir
06-27-2019, 08:25 AM
Looking good Steve. The shiny nickel and brass on the tank fittings will look great once the tank has been painted.

John

Steve Swan
07-01-2019, 06:49 PM
More progress on the chassis build. First off, a big thank you to Bob Luland for his fine work on the front forks. He replaced the spring tubes. The rigid fork legs were pushed back, sideways, the lugs were twisted and the lower of the three plates was cracked, he did a neat weld repair; assembling the forks, everything fit together perfectly. I am really pleased with how easily the 7" conical front brake centered, fit and looks; combined with the rear brake, i am confident together both will stop a motorcycle that's barely over 400 pounds. Made up some rods for the front fender, brake cable attached top and bottom. I was able to make a save on a really crusty front brake lever that had a screw twisted off on the perch and drilled/tapped a hole in the lever to keep the cable in place. i am really pleased how the bolt in the backing plate aligns with the rear rocker stud; next, i am going to make of a small plate to keep the backing plate from turning.

2514825149251502515125152

Steve Swan
07-01-2019, 07:25 PM
just realized i made up the rods to fit the wrong rocker stud....... Grrrr.......

2515625155

Steve Swan
07-09-2019, 09:24 PM
Making progress...

25177

TechNoir
07-10-2019, 03:42 AM
That is looking great Steve.

Here are some questions that come to my mind,

Is it magneto or coil ignition? I am guessing coil?

What do you plan for lights and horn?

Footboards or footrests?

What sort of handlebar controls are you planning on?

You may have mentioned this earlier in the thread but what are you plans for colour?

John

Steve Swan
07-10-2019, 01:58 PM
Hi John! Thanks for visiting my thread and your questions! i'm running a '29 generator that i'll convert to 2-brush. i'll be running a QuickStart 2000 electronic ignition. i'm using a 10 inch Model T headlight that has the original Spreadlight lens, it will tuck in surprisingly nicely at the top of and between the spring tubes. The horn is a 1926 Model T, it'll look like a fender ornament, extending a little past half way on the front fender. Large as the headlight and horn are, i think they are going to fit well with the overall appearance of the bike. My local buddy i've been helping with his '29, has a nice set of original footboards i will use. The Speedster handlebar are Tom Faber's; i will be running oem spirals, control coils and related parts. As far as colors, i am thinking a light grey/blue, something along the lines of the early twins, but will not be a factory color; i want the hue to be such that it is neither blue nor grey. the grey/blue will be for the fenders, tanks, guards and battery box. i've not decided on stripes, if i'll follow factory layout or if everything will be only 2 colors; right now, i'm leaning to maroon and black. i have been visualizing the frame to be maroon and forks the light grey/blue, the headlight and horn, black. we'll see where all of this goes, while i have a a sort of "vision" from the beginning i am at the same time letting things unfold as i keep hanging parts as they seem to best fit on the frame and forks. early on, as i was looking at cut downs and bobbers, and when 1914 repro fenders came with the frame and forks i purchased from Mick, i began realizing i wanted my project to look different from anything i was seeing. i honestly think that i am going to be able to pull off a decent looking JD custom using the oversize horn and headlight, not to mention the Velocette Brooklands-type can. i think they will stand in a pleasant contrast to the 28" tires on the 21" rims and the narrow sport solo tanks. when the idea to build another '27 entered my brain, i had no idea what direction it was going to go other than i knew i would not be going the factory standard route. the project has gone downhill from there.

2517825179251802518125182

TechNoir
07-10-2019, 03:36 PM
Brilliant Steve, thanks for the answers.

Now that you mention it I remember you mentioning the headlight previously. Electronic ignition makes sense and the rear fender and rear light look good too.

I am looking forward to the next bit of progress.

John.

Steve Swan
07-29-2019, 02:15 AM
I went back to where i grew up and did a library search; was thrilled to find this article about my Dad's trip from Cincinnati to Hartington, Nebraska, in the local paper, The Cedar County News. Attached are a couple pics taken during that trip. The date of the article is August 18, 1927. Also attached is the expense log he kept during April, 1927, that must have been when he first purchased his '27. 980 miles in 36 hours = average speed of 27.2 mph. Doing the math on his $6.12 gas expense for 980 miles.... based on price per gallon of gas noted in Dad's gas was 25 cents/gallon, that means Dad purchased approximately 24.5 gallons during the trip. Dividing 980 miles by 24.5 gallons, his fuel consumption was approximately 1 gallon per 40 miles. 1 dollar in 1927 is worth $13.79 today; this means a gallon of gas cost Dad about $3.45 in today's dollars. Pulling that side car,I imagine he used at least 1-1/2 quarts of oil.

25363253642536525366

TechNoir
07-29-2019, 07:36 AM
Thanks for posting this Steve. What a great nugget of family history.

John

Shaky Jake
07-29-2019, 08:00 AM
Great story.


Kevin

Steve Swan
07-29-2019, 12:27 PM
Thanks guys; i was really thrilled to find that article.

Steve Swan
07-29-2019, 12:28 PM
sorry, i can't seem to figure out how to make the font larger.

Steve Swan
08-06-2019, 05:54 PM
i am looking for an Edelmann spotlight to match the one i just installed on my '27. The one i have is in extraordinarily fine condition. Would like to find another in same or close to same condition.... Or one that has all the working parts that i can restore.... or pieces of one so that i can start looking for the rest of the parts. Can anyone help me...?

254632546425465

Steve Swan
08-13-2019, 10:32 AM
ok, here we are. as a person who likes bikes in factory trim with modest accessorizing, this is a big departure for me. i'm getting used to it, and it's growing on me. as i don't have equipment for welding, a local friend fabricated the mounts for the horn and the headlight for which the beam is adjustable up and down. i am thinking at this point the fenders, tanks, battery box and chain guards will be a light grey/blue such that one cannot tell if the color is grey or blue. the frame will be maroon, something maybe like Indian Red or maybe a color like the police blue. kind of thinking the forks may also be maroon or blue, the headlight light grey/blue and not sure what color the horn will be. striping will be either tri-color or tutone or some mix of the two. Thanks to a buddy on JD facebook, Rick U, the Flying J is now captive on the front fender.

25512255132551425516

aumick10
08-13-2019, 10:50 AM
Good progress Steve.
I will be interested in seeing how the fork dampers work. Does anybody have experience with them?
I tried to buy a set for my 29, but they were out of stock.
Cheers.
Mick

Steve Swan
08-13-2019, 10:57 AM
Mick, one concern with these dampers, the outer "star" that adjusts tension is mild steel, not spring steel which i assume they should be, so when one tights the nut against the star it goes flat.

aumick10
08-13-2019, 11:06 AM
They may not be designed to have the nut bottomed out on the step.
I would back them off until you ride it and get a feel for how much dampening they provide, the adjust as necessary.

Steve Swan
08-13-2019, 01:06 PM
They may not be designed to have the nut bottomed out on the step.
I would back them off until you ride it and get a feel for how much dampening they provide, the adjust as necessary.

correct. i have them tightened just enough for minimal tension on the star tensioners. i am just surprised they are mild steel, would think they should be spring steel so as to provide constant pressure on the friction discs. if the stars were spring steel would retain its curvature. mild steel, they will collapse at least to a certain degree and provide less tension, so the tension is not held constant like spring steel would provide. kind of the same thing as the rear stand latch is made of spring steel.

aumick10
08-13-2019, 01:12 PM
I also think they would have been made from spring steel.

Steve Swan
08-13-2019, 01:30 PM
yes, i would think spring steel would allow the stars to retain their shape. unfortunately, my experience, this seems to be how Comp.D does some of their manufacturing.......

fwiw, i have one of "Deuxcam's" dampers i will never use if you are interested....... it is parkerized but can't accommodate the tool box..... looks like this......

25519

aumick10
08-13-2019, 01:39 PM
Thanks Steve, but I much prefer the look of the rocker mounted dampers.

Steve Swan
08-13-2019, 01:44 PM
Mick, i figured, but never hurts to put i out there.

Peter Cooke
08-14-2019, 04:59 AM
Steve,
Bike's looking good. What brand of tyres if you don't mind?

Steve Swan
08-14-2019, 09:29 AM
Thanks, Peter. Kenda Challenger K657

Peter Cooke
08-15-2019, 04:17 AM
Thanks Steve.

Steve Swan
09-09-2019, 07:31 PM
Since there's not much i can do at this point in time with the project, i decided to assemble essential engine parts so i can fit the hand pump oil pipe and the gas pipe. The gas pipe fitted without much tweaking, but the oil pipe is off by a mile. The tanks are repro sort solo's (NOT Tom Feeser's), so i am thinking the problem lies in one of two things, 1. Sport Solo tanks have different positions for the oil pump body (3551-27) or 2. These repro tanks don't have the oil pump body in the correct position. As i've said in the past, this project is a big departure for me as i have always liked bikes in factory trim with any modifications that don't prevent me going back to factory trim. i am going to stay the course until i have the bike motoring down the road before i decide i can't live with the headlight and horn. The tanks, fenders, etc will be a light grey/blue, however instead of a maroon frame/forks, i am now thinking them painted in police blue would look pretty nice and also give me some color options for decreasing the impact of the headlight and horn.

2585125852

Steve Swan
09-25-2019, 10:43 PM
JD activity seem pretty dried up around here, but i'll post a few more pics, 'mocked up' the engine so i could fit my gas and oil pipes.

2600126002

aumick10
09-26-2019, 12:35 PM
Steve,
I fitted my tanks to my 29 yesterday, and it looks like I have the same issue as you with the hand oiler line.
The line in the photo is hand tight only, but it looks like the line to the pump valve is not square to the fitting. If it was, it would look like your line.
I see two different lines in the parts book, pre early 27 and later. There doesn't seem to be any pt # for different tanks.

I have 4 different lines here, and none of them are a perfect fit.
I am going to tweak mine when I fit it for good.

I have the bike running well, almost finished this one for the moment.

Cheers,
Mick
26008

Steve Swan
09-26-2019, 02:01 PM
Steve,
I fitted my tanks to my 29 yesterday, and it looks like I have the same issue as you with the hand oiler line.
The line in the photo is hand tight only, but it looks like the line to the pump valve is not square to the fitting. If it was, it would look like your line.
I see two different lines in the parts book, pre early 27 and later. There doesn't seem to be any pt # for different tanks.

I have 4 different lines here, and none of them are a perfect fit.
I am going to tweak mine when I fit it for good.

I have the bike running well, almost finished this one for the moment.

Cheers,
Mick
26008

Hi Mick,

the early '27 lines and associated fittings are a smaller diameter, i'm don't know the vin cutoff where larger line and fittings began on the later '27's. While my hand pump line was not off much, the oil tank to mechanical oiler line was waaay off. However, i am finding the steel lines respond well to thoughtful and gentle persuasion, so i was able to move the parts of the line that needed to get the end of each line to fit perfectly without stress on the fittings. i have a nifty tubing bender that was helpful for one of the bends in the hand pump line, the others i used my small vise with wood jaws to make the fit. in the case of the nasty tank to mech.oiler line, once i had each end in their approximate and very close positions to the nipples, i went ahead and fastened them to the nipples and then proceeded to make gentle nudges until the lines fit perfectly without the nuts being tightened.

Great work getting the '29 going! and as always great to hear from you!

Steve Swan
09-26-2019, 02:04 PM
Good progress Steve.
I will be interested in seeing how the fork dampers work. Does anybody have experience with them?
I tried to buy a set for my 29, but they were out of stock.
Cheers.
Mick

Mick, you might try Andy again, a couple months ago its now been, he said they were in the process of making up more of these dampers.

aumick10
09-26-2019, 02:40 PM
I was told it would be near the end of the year before the fork dampers would be available.
"Gentle persuasion" seems to be normal with a lot of repo parts.
I tried to post a video of the bike running but was unsuccessful.
Cheers

Steve Swan
09-26-2019, 03:54 PM
10.4 on availability. good that they'll be available again.

aumick10
09-26-2019, 04:15 PM
They actually sent me two different dampers that they were keeping as templates for a new production run.
I had to send them back.

I tightened my oil line to the tank and it is closer than yours, maybe 1" out. Slight tweak and it should be good.

I picked up a package truck frame last week. Trying to find the frame no to identify what year it is.

pfindlay
09-27-2019, 12:48 AM
I've been chipping away at a few things on my '25 this summer. It still has a few issues but I had it out a few times, including last weekend to an event. It attracts a lot of attention with its original paint, dents, and even rust. Guys were impressed when I fired it up and rode it away at the end of the event.


I did a little sidecar riding this summer and took my grandkids for a spin around the parking lot a few weeks ago. Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOt9xS9eFtk

Peter26010

Steve Swan
09-29-2019, 12:42 AM
Peter, your '25 is a beauty! The '25 has parts from the last of the loop frames and the beginning of the first of a new breed with the new frame, tanks, etc. love the vid! Thanks for posting!

pfindlay
09-29-2019, 11:58 AM
Thanks, it has a great look, for sure. You're right about those '25s. Some one year only parts, some shared with pre-'25 models and some shared with post '25.

My bike is pretty correct, although there are a few '25 only pieces I'm still looking for. Most notably an ignition switch and battery box. An original primary chain guard would be nice also, to replace that repro one (stands out a little, doesn't it.)

However, it's not a show bike so I'm ok with it the way it is. Riding down the road is the best thing.

Peter

26036

Steve Swan
09-29-2019, 12:42 PM
peter, what a great picture, thanks! i'm saving that one to my files. collecting pictures of every year/model twins that i can that i feel are good examples. Maybe Cam Saure cold help you with a battery box, i think he's on the tail end of getting a '25 going down the road and Cannonball ready. it's been maybe a year or little longer, i sold him usable remnants of a '25 battery box. here's a nice picture of a '25 i found a while ago.

26037

pfindlay
09-29-2019, 07:54 PM
Thanks, I communicated with Cam about the battery box awhile back.

I like that picture of a 25 - it's in my files also. You can't beat a good original photo for getting those little details correct.

Here's another picture of mine. I managed to get my wife in the car for a short ride to a local club event. As we entered the park a member took our picture. When I saw it later it reminded me of a photo I already had in my collection. So, on the left is a 1925 H-D promotional photo and on the right is our photo, snapped just 94 years later. See the resemblance?

26038


Peter

Steve Swan
09-29-2019, 09:33 PM
Thanks, I communicated with Cam about the battery box awhile back.

I like that picture of a 25 - it's in my files also. You can't beat a good original photo for getting those little details correct.

Here's another picture of mine. I managed to get my wife in the car for a short ride to a local club event. As we entered the park a member took our picture. When I saw it later it reminded me of a photo I already had in my collection. So, on the left is a 1925 H-D promotional photo and on the right is our photo, snapped just 94 years later. See the resemblance?

26038


Peter

Peter, those are both totally awesome pictures. Especially how the pic of you and your wife is a mirror image of the 1925 promo pic.

Steve Swan
09-29-2019, 09:35 PM
Peter, what brand of spotlight is that?

pfindlay
09-30-2019, 10:44 PM
Peter, what brand of spotlight is that?

It's a no-name spotlight, unless there is some marking on the inside. A few years ago my dad sold the family home and we spent three months cleaning out 60 years of car parts and other interesting items. I ended up with a couple of these spotlights.
Peter

Steve Swan
09-30-2019, 11:27 PM
it's pretty amazing all the manufacturer's in existence in those early years producing aftermarket parts and particularly accessories. imagine what the world would be like without the invention of the internal combustion reciprocating engine and imagine what transportation may look like in 500 years.....

Steve Swan
11-22-2019, 10:48 PM
been awhile.... got lucky and now have a set of George Hood's inlet housing caps and levers......

26579

RichO
11-23-2019, 06:27 PM
Steve, I hope they are the stockers and not the 1/8 inch offset ones. They are hard on the guides for a street machine but help a j model go like stink on a race model.

Steve Swan
11-23-2019, 08:52 PM
Steve, I hope they are the stockers and not the 1/8 inch offset ones. They are hard on the guides for a street machine but help a j model go like stink on a race model.

Rich, they are the 1/8" offset. when i bought them i knew they are hard on guides. How hard are they on guides? is there a guide material that can withstand the wear? i was thinking i would use the offsets with a stock cam.

aumick10
11-23-2019, 09:29 PM
Steve,
Where did you get the rocker towers?
Cheers

RichO
11-23-2019, 10:06 PM
Steve, The problem is they wear at an angle because of the offset. It doesn't matter what material you use. A race bike doesn't do the miles a street (rider) does. You can use a stock cam because the longer arm takes care of the longer opening of the valve. I know some Cannonball riders that used them and got the wear on one side of the guide. I had two sets and sent them back to George to exchange for two sets of stockers. I know the offsets give you more poop. George should still have some of his HOT cams too but stockers will work for you. Bronze or cast iron will wear about the same I would think. I'm a cast iron guy myself. Good luck!

Steve Swan
11-24-2019, 02:23 AM
Thanks for your reply Rich. Do the stockers open the inlet valve more?

RichO
11-24-2019, 09:43 AM
No Steve, the offsets do.

Steve Swan
11-24-2019, 12:39 PM
Thanks Rich; as i thought, but it never fails there is some little twist to something i don't know.