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Steve Swan
03-21-2018, 06:00 PM
Does anyone have experience using these old Pony riveting tools? Appears there are 2 models, a model 17 and a model 27. Does anyone know the difference between the two, what type of rivet each model is used for? I am wondering if they would work for riveting brake linings to brake bands for the JD rear brake.

21852

len dowe
03-21-2018, 08:22 PM
Leather tool.

camsaure
03-22-2018, 12:07 AM
had one on the farm, still have it somewhere. Grampa called it a Harness riveter. It did use tubular rivets but did not work well on regular brake shoes. It may work OK for woven linings on the JD, not sure. That said, I would prefer a simple hand riveter or a foot powered brake riveter. I always thought it to be sort of hard to control.

Steve Swan
03-22-2018, 03:18 AM
Thank you for your replies!

Steve Swan
03-22-2018, 03:37 AM
What is your experience with either of these tools? Or, what have you found that works well for riveting brake lining? Make your own?

2185421853

55tmm
03-22-2018, 08:27 AM
I have one like the green one in your picture and have riveted with good results.[ATTACH=CONFIG]21855

larry
03-22-2018, 09:59 AM
I purchased the green one from J C Whitney 50 years ago. Still have it, still use it. I do, however need to be careful with alignment or risk breaking off a corner of the lining.

T. Cotten
03-22-2018, 10:16 AM
I like having both hands free, Folks!

This foot-operated riveter came with different adjustable anvils, and one if its 'rams' splits the rivets into stars.

(Pic shows it set up as an OHV valve compressor. Note jeweler's riveter hanging on top.)

It had a contraption that clamped to the stand beneath it with a centerdrill for rivet removal.
Its stashed pretty deep.

....Cotten

Steve Swan
03-22-2018, 10:32 AM
I like having both hands free, Folks!

This foot-operated riveter came with different adjustable anvils, and one if its 'rams' splits the rivets into stars.

(Pic shows it set up as an OHV valve compressor. Note jeweler's riveter hanging on top.)

It had a contraption that clamped to the stand beneath it with a centerdrill for rivet removal.
Its stashed pretty deep.

....Cotten

Thanks guys, and that's a beauty Tom!

41craig
03-23-2018, 02:52 PM
The foot operated riveter is from Chicago Rivet & Machine. They are still in business and you can still get parts and accessories for you machine.
Craig

T. Cotten
03-23-2018, 03:20 PM
Chicago for sure, Craig!

MILECO was apparently an early auto brake manufacturer, and probably absorbed.

Or whatever they called it in Chicago....

....Cotten
PS: Ebay led me to this "Marathon L. J. Miley" riveter, and now I can figure out the bottom apparatus, if I ever retrieve it from storage.
Anybody got a motor for one? Thanks in advance,..

PPS: Gasp! It wasn't really Ebay, it was Pinterest.
(I avoid 'platforms' like Pinterest, but now they got my cookies dammit!)
Yet now I know it was a "radius dresser".

Arcing linings? (Please reply with a new topic header!)

41craig
03-24-2018, 04:07 PM
Cotton; Here is a couple of pics of the motor on mine. The motor is an Emerson, 1/4 H.P., 115 volts, 60 cycle, 1725 rpm, style 1571, 3.0 amp.
Hope this helps your search. Craig

T. Cotten
03-24-2018, 06:07 PM
Thanks,Craig!

Is that some sort of abrasive cylinder amid those vertical posts?
Its been at least two decades since I looked at it...

....Cotten

41craig
03-25-2018, 04:39 PM
Yes. It's a drum sander to grind the radius on your linings, after you replace the linings on your shoes. With the old asbestos linings it probably led to health issues with user and anyone close.
Craig

T. Cotten
03-25-2018, 04:51 PM
Health hazard no doubt, Craig!

That's just another reason I never refurbished this AAMCO (attached), but its still around here somewhere.
(It at least had a dust bag. Maybe.)

I'm really curious how the verticals on your machine were used to gauge the arc?

....Cotten

41craig
03-26-2018, 01:31 PM
Cotten; The center knob moves the verticals toward and away from the drum. You loosen the wing nut and swing the rollers in and out. I'm not sure if there was a guide for the different radius's. Maybe Chicago Rivet has more info on it. They still take these old machines in for repair!
Craig2188721886

len dowe
03-30-2018, 08:58 AM
Picked this up. Still need some upper tooling for it. If anybody has one I could borrow to make a copy or purchase I would appreciate it.

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu72/38knuckle/Cycleray%20Restoration/IMG_4819.jpg (http://s635.photobucket.com/user/38knuckle/media/Cycleray%20Restoration/IMG_4819.jpg.html)

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu72/38knuckle/Cycleray%20Restoration/IMG_4820.jpg (http://s635.photobucket.com/user/38knuckle/media/Cycleray%20Restoration/IMG_4820.jpg.html)

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu72/38knuckle/Cycleray%20Restoration/IMG_4822.jpg (http://s635.photobucket.com/user/38knuckle/media/Cycleray%20Restoration/IMG_4822.jpg.html)

T. Cotten
03-30-2018, 10:51 AM
Len!

Any idea what diameter the setting "ram" would be?
My previous attachment of a 'star' setter shows poorly how the middle portion has a shoulder to press upon, and a "bayonet" relief cut above the shoulder to retain it.

Other makes may well fit, since it was 'licensed'; Can you carve a wooden dowel to cram and twist into it for clues?

....Cotten
It appears my Harbor Freight sheetmetal punch (looks a lot like a 'Pony') is doomed to become a riveter, since replacements for the dies are unobtainium. At least it paid for itself...

len dowe
03-31-2018, 07:07 PM
There are some tooling close by at Industrial Brake. The owner has a drawer full but he won't let me borrow one to make a copy. I was lucky that he let me take pictures.

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu72/38knuckle/Shepard%20Thomason%20revit%20machine/IMG_20180320_094723.jpg (http://s635.photobucket.com/user/38knuckle/media/Shepard%20Thomason%20revit%20machine/IMG_20180320_094723.jpg.html)

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu72/38knuckle/Shepard%20Thomason%20revit%20machine/IMG_20180320_094721.jpg (http://s635.photobucket.com/user/38knuckle/media/Shepard%20Thomason%20revit%20machine/IMG_20180320_094721.jpg.html)

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu72/38knuckle/Shepard%20Thomason%20revit%20machine/IMG_20180320_094713.jpg (http://s635.photobucket.com/user/38knuckle/media/Shepard%20Thomason%20revit%20machine/IMG_20180320_094713.jpg.html)

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu72/38knuckle/Shepard%20Thomason%20revit%20machine/IMG_20180320_094709.jpg (http://s635.photobucket.com/user/38knuckle/media/Shepard%20Thomason%20revit%20machine/IMG_20180320_094709.jpg.html)

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu72/38knuckle/Shepard%20Thomason%20revit%20machine/IMG_20180320_094706.jpg (http://s635.photobucket.com/user/38knuckle/media/Shepard%20Thomason%20revit%20machine/IMG_20180320_094706.jpg.html)

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu72/38knuckle/Shepard%20Thomason%20revit%20machine/IMG_20180320_094703.jpg (http://s635.photobucket.com/user/38knuckle/media/Shepard%20Thomason%20revit%20machine/IMG_20180320_094703.jpg.html)

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu72/38knuckle/Shepard%20Thomason%20revit%20machine/IMG_20180320_094656.jpg (http://s635.photobucket.com/user/38knuckle/media/Shepard%20Thomason%20revit%20machine/IMG_20180320_094656.jpg.html)

T. Cotten
04-01-2018, 10:25 AM
A lot simpler to make than mine, Len!

I suspect the short taper at the top secures it into the machine.

Got a lathe?

....Cotten

len dowe
04-01-2018, 03:48 PM
I have a lathe Tom but not proffecent on it yet.

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu72/38knuckle/Garage%20sale%20lathe%20tools/IMG_2884_1.jpg (http://s635.photobucket.com/user/38knuckle/media/Garage%20sale%20lathe%20tools/IMG_2884_1.jpg.html)

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu72/38knuckle/Garage%20sale%20lathe%20tools/IMG_2863.jpg (http://s635.photobucket.com/user/38knuckle/media/Garage%20sale%20lathe%20tools/IMG_2863.jpg.html)

Since then I completely rebuilt it and added a Bison chuck and Dorian tool post with tooling.

T. Cotten
04-02-2018, 09:56 AM
It looks like a good size and vintage, Len!

How do you lower the toolpost?

....Cotten

len dowe
04-02-2018, 01:32 PM
That's some old pics and wasn't done with the rebuild with an old tool post.
Newer pics but still have to install the new feed half nut and screw bushingings in the compound. it's a 12".

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu72/38knuckle/Garage%20sale%20lathe%20tools/IMG_4826.jpg (http://s635.photobucket.com/user/38knuckle/media/Garage%20sale%20lathe%20tools/IMG_4826.jpg.html)

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu72/38knuckle/Garage%20sale%20lathe%20tools/IMG_4827.jpg (http://s635.photobucket.com/user/38knuckle/media/Garage%20sale%20lathe%20tools/IMG_4827.jpg.html)

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu72/38knuckle/Garage%20sale%20lathe%20tools/IMG_4828.jpg (http://s635.photobucket.com/user/38knuckle/media/Garage%20sale%20lathe%20tools/IMG_4828.jpg.html)

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu72/38knuckle/Garage%20sale%20lathe%20tools/IMG_4830.jpg (http://s635.photobucket.com/user/38knuckle/media/Garage%20sale%20lathe%20tools/IMG_4830.jpg.html)

T. Cotten
04-02-2018, 02:33 PM
I like that post a lot better, Len!

'We' (the 'royal' "We".. like the good ol' days when Liberty had a crew ,..) must make do with most anything; My 'budget' Harbor Freight quick-change stays 'dedicated' to some critical operations, while relying upon a couple of lantern posts for most everything else.

Except when clamping an old sewing machine motor or Dremel to something carved in the eighties...

The real trick to making rivet rams will be picking the material, or search out a 'practical' hardening recipe.

...Cotten

BigLakeBob
04-02-2018, 05:21 PM
Len, I think those rivet tools would be a good project for you to get your feet wet with that lathe this spring. Try and get some sketches and dimensions from your friend that won't allow the tools out of his sight, why? I know I will get disagreements but here I go, I would use S-7 tool steel. It is a shock resistant steel used in exact applications as this. I make parts from it almost weekly. It is not real expensive. When heat treated to somewhere in the 52-54Rc range it will only change slightly, but will be hard enough and forgiving enough for this exact application. If needed I can send some out to you. I will also offer to heat treat them for you, I go weekly to heat treat and a few more pieces in the lot would be consumed in my minimum charge. PM me if you want to go that route. I could also do whatever end form you need if you just wanted to blank them out.

T. Cotten
04-02-2018, 06:55 PM
Well, Len...

Bob's got your recipe!

I see your intuition came through and you stiiffened your table with plate.
Mine is similar, but it coulda shoulda been more.

Hope to move my Logan to a slab of pool table slate... .. .. someday.

....Cotten

T. Cotten
06-24-2018, 06:06 PM
Back to topic almost,....

This thing fits in the palm of your hand;

It has "Dc" with the c underscored, and 'Paris' on the other side,

Cute as a puppy, and a long story to go with it.

....Cotten

ryan
03-11-2019, 11:59 PM
Drivers for the pony riveters are around 15 bucks for rolled or splayed rivets. Rolled for metal, splayed for leather and such. I will give a supplier for rivets, almost any type of buckles and all kinds of tooling for the stand up riveters. They also have all kinds of materials and fastners. Well worth calling for a free catalog. They are Amish, so no web site.
Beiler's Supply 717-768-0174

S-7 is a great, air hard, material to work with. I used s-7 for cavity blocks on one half of plastic injection molds and h13 on the other half. H13 tig rod gives you a 50-54 hc tough surface just from welding with it and letting it cool.

ryan
03-12-2019, 12:07 AM
Cotten's post 27: That is an eyelet setter for shoe repair. I'm sure you already know that Cotten. Lol

T. Cotten
03-12-2019, 10:38 AM
Cotten's post 27: That is an eyelet setter for shoe repair. I'm sure you already know that Cotten. Lol

Not exactly, Ryan!

It would require a pretty small shoestring, and they were still using buttonhooks back then.
(I suspect Hexter's became my neighbor Loy's 'dime store' in the thirties, but the Loys are no longer with us to ask...)

This tiny riveter was in an old watch repair dumpster load, about four doors away.
(Note Linkert float gauge beneath it.)

I consider all such presses (like my Pacific) to be multi-purpose tooling!

....Cotten

chuckthebeatertruck
03-13-2019, 04:02 PM
That's some old pics and wasn't done with the rebuild with an old tool post.
Newer pics but still have to install the new feed half nut and screw bushingings in the compound. it's a 12".

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu72/38knuckle/Garage%20sale%20lathe%20tools/IMG_4826.jpg (http://s635.photobucket.com/user/38knuckle/media/Garage%20sale%20lathe%20tools/IMG_4826.jpg.html)

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu72/38knuckle/Garage%20sale%20lathe%20tools/IMG_4827.jpg (http://s635.photobucket.com/user/38knuckle/media/Garage%20sale%20lathe%20tools/IMG_4827.jpg.html)

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu72/38knuckle/Garage%20sale%20lathe%20tools/IMG_4828.jpg (http://s635.photobucket.com/user/38knuckle/media/Garage%20sale%20lathe%20tools/IMG_4828.jpg.html)

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu72/38knuckle/Garage%20sale%20lathe%20tools/IMG_4830.jpg (http://s635.photobucket.com/user/38knuckle/media/Garage%20sale%20lathe%20tools/IMG_4830.jpg.html)

I do quite a bit of restoration and custom work on my July 1946 10" Atlas -- which is substantially similar to the 12" craftsman you've got going on here (Atlas produced the craftsman models -- but contrary to popular belief, the 12" craftsman does not share as many parts with the 10" atlas as you'd think.)

Anyways, three tips:
1) Turn your compound 90 degrees to the bed and mount your post SQUARELY to the compound -- not at an angle as you have it in the photos. If you run the compound this way, you can EASILY take full 1/8 DOC cuts with HSS tools. If you try to use ceramic -- up your speed considerably and lower the feed rate. Otherwise, it's standard speed and feed. I turn a large amount of 4140 (annealed and PH) -- as well as 17-4 stainless; 1040; and T6 alloy. All love the baby atlas . . . but you've got to have it rigidly mounted and the bed nice and level.

2) Loosen your belt! You've got it taunt with the eccentric at the loose setting. You'll tear up your pulley and distort the jack shaft faster than you think.

3) Shim the motor coupler so it's not "hanging" as in the photos. It will bounce in use -- resulting in chatter. These are already very light lathes (very) and you want to eliminate sources of unwanted vibration as much as possible. I use blocks of semi-rigid carpet foam to help isolate the motor vibration.

Other wise, they are fun manual lathes. I can hold a solid .001 taper over 12" which really isn't bad for a 73 year old very light duty hobby lathe. The only draw back is that it takes me about 8 times longer to make parts on it than with a EE or Hardinge tool room (especially if cutting threads!).

Finally, the one thing you CAN do these lathes with impunity is tool post grinding. There's a dude in Niles, MI who sells a good kit for these lathes at circa $400 complete. Don't bother hunting the original Atlas TP grinder -- it's a huge heavy beast. With a more modern, lighter grinder you might be amazed at what you can do.

Oh, and I make my own brake shoe rivet set tools -- all 1040. I have different ones for the different shoes I work with -- but the header is the same across the board as I usually use 4/4 brass -- though sometimes I get real lazy and use copper/al pop rivets (Copper bodies; aluminum shanks). I still "set" the pops anyways just to make sure the rivet has drawn the lining tight enough to the shoe

tfburke3
03-13-2019, 06:24 PM
I have the similar Craftsman baby table top model and it sure is handy.It looks almost identical but miniature.I need one of those link belts as mine looks like an old worn boot lace but you have take apart the whole thing to change it.
Wish I had the big one.
Tom

T. Cotten
03-13-2019, 07:06 PM
I shall need flat belts for my South Bend, too, Folks!

Any sources would be appreciated.

(In the meantime, my '48 Logan is tortured mercilessly.)

....Cotten
PS: My Van Dorn valve grinder was given to me with a belt with buckle holes.

ryan
03-13-2019, 09:53 PM
There is a quick change gear box on ebay right now for a craftsmen 12in lathe. I am not sure if 450 bucks is a good price or not, but Len's lathe sure looks worth it.

Cotten, I can help you with flat belts. Please give me the measurements. What model number lathe do you have?

Since we are now talking lathes, I need dimensions for Harley truing stand arbor for the mid-star hubs and later. I copied the dimensions for the early star hub arbor from another site and pasted them in the Harley wanted adds, just need them checked.

gharper
03-13-2019, 11:09 PM
The best flat belt I've found for my 1940's Logan is a modern serpentine belt 1" wide, flipped over. Runs smooth and quiet, unlike the rest of the lathe....

ryan
03-14-2019, 02:26 AM
The best flat belt I've found for my 1940's Logan is a modern serpentine belt 1" wide, flipped over. Runs smooth and quiet, unlike the rest of the lathe....

I forgot all about the serpentine belt, I remember hearing other people saying the same thing.

chuckthebeatertruck
03-14-2019, 02:40 PM
There is a quick change gear box on ebay right now for a craftsmen 12in lathe. I am not sure if 450 bucks is a good price or not, but Len's lathe sure looks worth it.

Cotten, I can help you with flat belts. Please give me the measurements. What model number lathe do you have?

Since we are now talking lathes, I need dimensions for Harley truing stand arbor for the mid-star hubs and later. I copied the dimensions for the early star hub arbor from another site and pasted them in the Harley wanted adds, just need them checked.

Not really, that's kinda high even if it's the price you usually see. The reason is simple -- a lot of guys start with an Atlas or Craftsman. They go on a website and after they are done hearing how bad these lathes are (they aren't) they think they gotta have the quick change to make the lathe "useful." Instead, they need to work on their user input and adjust to the lathe. These things are so light that you have to pay attention in a way you don't on most anything with prizmatic ways or anything with some real HP.

It's more convenient for sure -- but not necessarily that much of a time saver unless you do a lot of production type work. For hobbyists; manually swapping gears becomes a pretty quick affair. You'll find you're really only swapping gears to cut threads -- and you'll soon find you're only cutting a few TPIs reguarly (13,14,20) so you kinda memorize the setting. Feed speeds are pretty forgiving on the atlas/craftsman. The belts often slip long before a feed problem is apparent.

My quick change is real simple -- I have all the gears lined up on a peg board just in front of the lathe. I loosen the three nuts, grab the gears I need, and am done in 90-120 seconds. So, yeah, I waste 2 minutes instead of 2 seconds. I figure it's OK, my beer doesn't get that much colder :-)

Truth is that I hated the atlas at first. I bought it because it was a super sale -- I got a 54 inch model in great condition from an old instrument maker with the absurdly light milling attachment, a nos motor, a brand new power control unit, and tooling for $500. The only catch is that I had to disassemble the lathe to move it; which took all of 20 minutes.

After I worked with the beasty for a few months, I adapted to it. Now that I'm in a new shop -- it likely will become back up to something a bit more substantial. Just gotta wait to see what shows up at the machinery builders and how much cheddar is jingling around.

Until then, I haven't found a job I can't do on the Atlas. I came close with turning some drums lately . . . they almost skimmed the bed with the OD; but I had a hair to spare :-) It just takes a darn long time. We won't talk about the 8 hours I spent making head bolts for my UL. Coulda bought them from colony for $90 -- but I had a stock of 4140 hex bar on hand . . .and nothing better to do over Christmas. When you get the chance to cut threads to fit your exact application -- it's kinda fun too.

chuckthebeatertruck
03-14-2019, 02:43 PM
PS: My Van Dorn valve grinder was given to me with a belt with buckle holes.


sounds like the first sunnen I bought . . . one of the 1600 series with the separate motor on top and no integral feed pump. It's amazing how well "repairs" can work -- and I find it darn enjoyable to be working on a 1940s lathe when dealing with machines of a similar age. Slows me down and keeps me thinking . . .

chuckthebeatertruck
03-14-2019, 02:48 PM
I have the similar Craftsman baby table top model and it sure is handy.It looks almost identical but miniature.I need one of those link belts as mine looks like an old worn boot lace but you have take apart the whole thing to change it.
Wish I had the big one.
Tom

five will get you ten you can trade someone. As I posted, I got mine for a song. A big part of the reason is that it's a 54 inch bed -- which is way too much bed for many home hobbyists. When all assembled, you need 65 inches of clearance to get the gear cover open and that's too much bench space for most folks. Anyways, put out a CL ad and you might be surprised.

As for the belts, you can buy the "green" ones right over the counter at Harbor Freight and the "red" ones through many online sources. They are usually in the $30-40 range -- and last as long as a "regular" v -belt. They are quieter and run more smoothly -- but they can tear up some v pulleys if they are soft or if you have the lathe in a high dust environment. I haven't had this problem; but a friend has. His pulleys are shiny and almost polished looking compared to mine. I also run my belt much, much looser than he does. It can be hard to convince people loose is good.

T. Cotten
03-14-2019, 03:28 PM
I shall certainly need assistance, Ryan!

But I won't have belt lengths until I relocate both lathes.
And that's been in progress a decade.

I poked a hole in the wall for the Logan years ago, but I cannot move it and install the South Bend without shutting down completely for some time.
That's forbidden, as I'm still back-logged insanely.

(But I won't give up.)

...Cotten
PS: I cut the slate with a carpenter's hand saw, and it sharpened it.

T. Cotten
03-14-2019, 04:37 PM
sounds like the first sunnen I bought . . . one of the 1600 series with the separate motor on top and no integral feed pump. It's amazing how well "repairs" can work -- and I find it darn enjoyable to be working on a 1940s lathe when dealing with machines of a similar age. Slows me down and keeps me thinking . . .

Mine's got no series, Chuck!

Just "Model LBN Bushing Grinder."

It was $150 forty years ago, and still needs repair.
The serpentine belt number Carl O. gave me doesn't fit without a tear-down.

And down-time ain't allowed.

...Cotten
PS: The Water-Pik oiler on the side is long gone; Still use the mustard bottle

T. Cotten
06-08-2019, 04:16 PM
Back almost to topic, Folks..

This BestYet cost me a buck at the annual antique tractor show a few blocks away.
(Didn't need the riveter, just the larger horned anvil.)

Had to walk my labradane twice, just to enjoy spending more money than usual.

The best fishing is in the smallest ponds.

....Cotten
PS: Damn that reminds me to get ready for Davenport.