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Steve Swan
09-15-2017, 01:13 PM
After completing my 27JD, i began wondering what each H-D Factory Production V-twin model from the beginning 1909 til 1929 looked like in contrast to my '27 as well as to see these changes year by year.

During the time of the "Japanese Invasion," when i was in my teens and 20's, beginning prior to the tumultuous AMC era and through the AMC era, i heard comments made about H-D such as, "They deserve to go out of business, they've never change anything." Of course, we know that's not true; The Factory made changes every year and within years.

Over the past couple months, i've been surfing the 'net looking at pictures of H-D Factory Production V-twins from 1909-1929 to see the changes between each year.

I thought maybe it might be fun to start a thread on these IoE Factory Production models. What i thought i'd do is post a picture, beginning with the first Production V-twin The Factory produced in 1909 through each model year to 1929, so we could write any comments about that specific model year, stuff like the factory model designation, attach pictures of that model year and any other information about these machines.

So, attached are 3 pictures i found on the internet of what are stated as the 1909 model. What was the Factory's model designation for their first year Production twin ? What i mean by "Factory Production Model" is the model The Factory produced intended to go to the dealer to be sold to the customer.

207372073820739

exeric
09-18-2017, 05:02 PM
Great idea, Steve. My very favorite Harley-Davidsons are the pre 1930 twins, and the earliest, and skinniest being at the top. We just got our power, and internet access back after the hurricane so I'll have to do some digging, and contribute to your idea. I have some copies of early trade magazines that list pre-1909 H-D twins as catalog items. Whether that was sales baloney, or reality is something I would leave to the real historians.

Steve Swan
09-18-2017, 10:08 PM
Hi Eric ! I was so glad to hear in the "Irma Thread" that you largely missed the wrath of Hurricane Irma.

Really looking forward to what you can share on the IoE twins. I thought it would be fun to go through each model year; present one model year at a time over a month or two period, see how much information gets shared, then move on to next model year.

Eric
09-19-2017, 04:20 AM
Good idea Steve.
Vtwin production start in 1907 not in 1909...

exeric
09-19-2017, 10:13 AM
This is a picture of a 1908 twin, or double.

http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee341/cdo340/08harley_zpsxhaufcau.jpg (http://s534.photobucket.com/user/cdo340/media/08harley_zpsxhaufcau.jpg.html)

Sorry for the poor quality of this scan. As you can see, the date is January of '08 so it was made in '07 as Eric stated. Also in the text it mentions the '07 double.

http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee341/cdo340/hd%20twin%2008_zpsp6eejylx.jpg (http://s534.photobucket.com/user/cdo340/media/hd%20twin%2008_zpsp6eejylx.jpg.html)

Steve Swan
09-19-2017, 10:34 AM
Good idea Steve.
Vtwin production start in 1907 not in 1909...

Well.... There we go ! I learned something already ! 1907 was first year of twin production !

Steve Swan
09-19-2017, 10:50 AM
Eric, thanks for the info from "the Motorcycle Illustrated." Amazing, the bike only weighed 275 pounds !

Was this new model simply known as "the double" ? What feature(s) made the carburetor "automatic" ? Battery is "three cells;" was the battery a dry cell type ? Are any 1907 twins known to exist ? I really can't imagine the excitement riders must have felt, leaving the horse behind for a motorcycle. Really must have been an age of awe and wonderment.

exeric
09-19-2017, 12:31 PM
Just an observation; note the '08 double has a belt tensioner, but H-D's museum '09 does not. In it's defense, the '09 has probably been monkeyed with by many hands, over many years.

Rubone
09-19-2017, 12:51 PM
The '07 double used atmospheric intake valves and was neither a mechanical or sales success. Very few were actually built. The mechanical intake and IOE design changed things dramatically for H-D.

Steve Swan
09-19-2017, 01:55 PM
The '07 double used atmospheric intake valves and was neither a mechanical or sales success. Very few were actually built. The mechanical intake and IOE design changed things dramatically for H-D.

Do we have any RH views of the engine and the machine. Specifically, do we have any pictures of the atmospheric intake setup ?

Also, what made an "automatic" carb different from a "non-automatic" carb ?

Chris Haynes
09-19-2017, 04:56 PM
I am sure you mean American Machine & Foundry, not AMC.

T. Cotten
09-19-2017, 05:18 PM
Also, what made an "automatic" carb different from a "non-automatic" carb ?

Good question, Folks!

Hopefully 'automatic' meant it put itself out when it caught fire.

....Cotten
PS: Before Folks think I am just being flippant, please consider if it has a Schebler H Model with an airvalve.
(I hope so.)

Steve Swan
09-19-2017, 06:08 PM
I am sure you mean American Machine & Foundry, not AMC.

Thanks Chris ! of course, AMF, is what i meant !

Steve Swan
09-19-2017, 06:18 PM
Good question, Folks!

Hopefully 'automatic' meant it put itself out when it caught fire.

....Cotten
PS: Before Folks think I am just being flippant, please consider if it has a Schebler H Model with an airvalve.
(I hope so.)

Thanks Tom, for your comments. When i read the 1907 featured an "automatic" carburetor, i wondered if "automatic vs. non-automatic" had something to do with mixing air and fuel in a ratio suitable for efficient combustion....? in years past, i seem to recall reading very early, primitive types of carb design somehow regulated the rate fuel dripped into the carburetor, not too much to flood the combustion chamber but enough to allow combustion when raw fuel and air were drawn in to the combustion chamber.....? or, am i just having a fanciful idea.....?

and, back to Robbie's comment on atmospheric intake valves, this design had no direct mechanical actuation...... ?

T. Cotten
09-19-2017, 06:30 PM
I've got no clue about earlier carbs, Steve!

Nobody has trusted me with one.

But the advantage of an 'automatic' snuffer should be obvious.

....Cotten

exeric
09-19-2017, 06:31 PM
It looks like the '09 double may have a H model Schebler, but there is no way to verify the '08 did. Also, there is no way to know if the '09 originally had a Schebler. There were many different carburetor manufacturers in those days, including Harley-Davidson. As for an automatic carburetor, I know that in those days, some carbs were very crude so perhaps it refers to a carb with a float. As for atmospheric intake valves, they were very common in the early days. Indian went mechanical in 1908, H-D went mech. on their twin in 1911, but not till '13 on their singles. Atmospheric intake valves were simple, and efficient for the slow speeds, and poor roads of the day.

T. Cotten
09-19-2017, 06:42 PM
Just conjurin' Eric,..

But if the legend that Ole Evinrude used a tomato can has any basis at all, wouldn't it have been for a float 'bowl'?

Using one for a body would certainly have invited a melt-down.

And it would have been one very, very large "'venturi'"!

....Cotten
PS: I admitted I'm clueless about pre-George Schebler designs, so any pics or literature would be appreciated!

Rubone
09-19-2017, 06:42 PM
and, back to Robbie's comment on atmospheric intake valves, this design had no direct mechanical actuation...... ?

Correct Steve, they operated by the negative pressure created in the downstroke sucking them open. As simple as it gets.

T. Cotten
09-19-2017, 06:52 PM
I suspect, Steve,..

They had a mechanical means to close the valve: a spring.

Just like the airvalve on a Schebler H.

....Cotten
PS: But those were adjustable!
Any knobs on atmospheric motor intake valves? Shoulda been...

exeric
09-19-2017, 08:19 PM
My '11 Merkel twin has atmospheric intake valves; and you're correct, Tom, they have a conical spring return, but no adjustment for spring pressure, or dwell. That was all calculated by the engineers of the day.

Steve Swan
09-19-2017, 08:25 PM
referring to Hatfield's "Inside Harley-Davidson," the 1906 single had a bore & stroke of 3-1/8" x 3-1/2" for a displacement of 26.8 ci or439.9 cc, so according to the January 1908 "The Motorcycle Illustrated" article, the twin motor was "a single doubled up." so, that means the displacement of the double would be 53.6 ci or 879 cc. the Article also mentions "a greatly strengthened spring fork of the Sagher type." The picture of the double, the fork appears one piece; unsprung.....?

does anyone have a RH view of the '08 double ?

duffeycycles
09-20-2017, 09:08 AM
Early carbs were a wick type carb[like,tomato can]there was a reservoir to hold fuel with a wick that was in the fuel & went up to the intake tube.As air passed the wick it picked up fuel for the mixture.Speed was controlled by the timing advance/retard,not a throttle plate....look at Bruce Lindsay's '05 HD

T. Cotten
09-20-2017, 10:34 AM
I had read of such things, Duffey!

Its amazing how farther advanced Schebler was in '02.

Did you post a pic of Linsday's '05?

....Cotten
PS: Sorry Dewey!
Every one of my posts needs a PS anyway...

duffeycycles
09-20-2017, 10:48 AM
Poor Dewey always accused of my posts.No I did not post Bruce's bike,easily googled,probably a video showing him start & run it.Including showing the timing changing as he revves it up.

T. Cotten
09-20-2017, 05:34 PM
Poor Dewey always accused of my posts.No I did not post Bruce's bike,easily googled,probably a video showing him start & run it.Including showing the timing changing as he revves it up. Apologies again to Dewey!

And Duffey, I'd google Linsday's if I had the data plan, but honestly, I can't grasp anything unless it is in my hands.

(And trust me Folks!
Not only am I booked solid out of sight, but I don't need anything more exotic crossing my benches than what already does, like the 3/4" H (attached) that I just finished for a whip-cracking associate.
Got no idea what its for.. but its perfect inside, now.)

Had to custom-cut nearly everything, even the throttleshaft and riveted lift lever roller, hope it doesn't look too new (nothing on ebay is going to fit, and too 'obvious' anyway.) Straightened the bent airvalve horn too.
Now for the 'awkward moment' when he sees the tally: Shouldn't have cracked the whip if it was going to come back at him.

....Cotten
PS: If I hadn't conserved the finishes, instead of letting a plater molest them forever, I would have been whipped for real.... and deserved it.
PPS: Beryllium spring plate for the throttle cams doesn't seem to be available in proper thickness, and cost prohibitive for the rest. If anyone has access to 'scrap', I have pounds of PEEK to trade that I was selling at D-port at a bargain $.25 a gram.

exeric
09-20-2017, 07:33 PM
There used to be a Beryllium copper specialist company just north of Sarasota. It is now an empty lot, and EPA health hazard. Beryllium copper is difficult to find in small quantities and is very useful, but also quite toxic when you machine it, or make any dust of it. Like you said, Tom; that spring cam is what is always in dire need of replacement on a H model Schebler.

Steve Swan
09-20-2017, 08:27 PM
Tom, unless the "whip-cracker" has the parts, tools and equipment (not to mention expertise) i'd suggest he not complain about price. Your workmanship is worth every penny of your time and effort.

T. Cotten
09-21-2017, 09:42 AM
Eric!

I have been cutting them from hard brass, but it just isn't right.

And Steve!
His complaint is that I am so slow. Painfully slow. And I can't argue that point.

I ain't cheap by any standards, but pennies an hour is about what I show for my effort:
"R&D" doesn't pay anything; it costs.

....Cotten

Steve Swan
09-21-2017, 09:57 AM
Tom, one gets what one pays for. You give your customers quality workmanship.

T. Cotten
09-21-2017, 04:20 PM
Tom, one gets what one pays for. You give your customers quality workmanship.
Not for that much longer, Steve!

Retirement age has come and gone, with next to nothing in my Social Security account.

I need to work out an exit strategy soon.

....Cotten
PS: Ebay my "empire"?
(Apologies to Fred Sanford.)

Doh! I can't take another 'learning curve'.

silentgreyfello
09-22-2017, 04:33 PM
Interesting thread until it was hijacked by the self-promoting-carb-dude

T. Cotten
09-22-2017, 05:48 PM
Interesting thread until it was hijacked by the self-promoting-carb-dude

Here's my self-promotion, silentgreyfellow:
http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bboard/showthread.php?25406-Another-LIBERTY-MCY-SPECIALTIES-Announcement/page3&highlight=Liberty+announcement

If I needed to self-promote, I certainly wouldn't be turning away new accounts.

And you are not an established account, are you?

....Cotten
PS: Did I ask too many questions, Folks?
Thanks to those who replied courteously. Its about old motorcycles, not ragging egos.

T. Cotten
09-22-2017, 06:45 PM
PPS: Silentgreyfellow.

What have you contributed to vintage motorcycling?

Robert Luland
09-22-2017, 08:28 PM
Tom, your around here a lot lately? You get thrown off a couple more forums? Bob

Rooster
09-22-2017, 10:02 PM
Hey, everyone needs a safe place to hang out. Some people may have exhausted their options, but if there's a personal problem, the solution is easy- just don't read it! Nobody forces anyone to read the posts of another member. Take it or leave it, like it or not. If it's too (fill in the blank) ____________ , then just hit the BACK button, or better yet, the big X. Problem solved.

Steve Swan
09-22-2017, 11:40 PM
Gentleman ! How about these pics of what's supposed to be a 1911 twin...?

2076620765

T. Cotten
09-23-2017, 04:35 PM
It's pretty, Steve!

But I need more resolution to learn anything.
(And anything that "restored" makes me scratch my chin anyway.)

Back to "automatic":

"Pravg Schebler" was a Euro website several years ago with great information, although I can no longer find it. (Doh! Found it: http://www.geocities.ws/pravgeusau/schebler.htm)

It was one of the first to prescribe a modern material such as Teflon to replace the leather airvalve seal.

It refers to 'automatic' with "The Schebler model "H" carburettor was one of the first so-called "automatic carburettors", allowing single cable control, for motorcycles."

...Cotten

Steve Swan
09-23-2017, 05:08 PM
Tom, thanks for sharing good information. The pics i posted, i got off internet, were the best ones i could find; when available would download original looking examples instead of restored. my hope is fellow members will share pictures and information to build on my meager start.

when it comes to anything but a '27 model, i have no clue what i'm looking for or at !

and i don't know much about '27 models either ! mine i built with my raw know-how, help from fellows like you and researching every bit of original information and pictures of unmolested originals i could find. never seen a 27 in the flesh, so i'm sure mine has some incorrect stuff on it, not withstanding repro parts when i couldn't find original parts.

T. Cotten
09-23-2017, 05:25 PM
As most of us realize, Steve,...

All of our projects are only a work in progress, and may only "finish" when we do.

That's just another reason why an online roster to follow such progress would benefit not only ourselves as enthusiasts, and our posterity, but vintage motorcycling overall.

....Cotten

Rubone
09-23-2017, 05:28 PM
Automatic carburation and automatic carburetor are two different things and function quite differently although with somewhat similar end results.

T. Cotten
09-23-2017, 05:41 PM
Automatic carburation and automatic carburetor are two different things and function quite differently although with somewhat similar end results.

Its obvious Folks!

Two letters are different.

....Cotten
PS: I hope like all hell that none of you expected an insipid emoticon in my reply.

exeric
09-23-2017, 06:05 PM
Let's get back to the Steve's original topic, and something interesting.

This illustration is shows engines from 1910. I say that because the Merkel motor is a 1910 because it has the external mechanical oil pump on the outside of the cam/gear cover. 1911 used a throttle controlled oil dripper. So, I'm making a speculative leap of assumption and am saying that this trade magazine was showing a 1910 Harley-Davidson twin. Now, that could mean that the illustration was created in late 1910 from a trade show where H-D was introducing th3 1911 twin. Regardless, the Merkel twin is a 1910 for what that's worth:)

http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee341/cdo340/merkc_zpsqgrrkptu.jpg (http://s534.photobucket.com/user/cdo340/media/merkc_zpsqgrrkptu.jpg.html)

T. Cotten
09-23-2017, 06:48 PM
Great pic Eric!

But photobucket phuckets with me if I try to view it any more closely, or save it.

Its so easy to save to this forum direct!

When you bring up the box to post your reply, look below it for a 'button' that says: Manage Attachments.
Click on it, and a second browser tab appears. Somewhere in small print among all the bells and whistles it will say: Add Files.
Click on that, and then look in the box that pops up for Basic Uploader.

Clicking on that will change that box to say Browse.
Clicking on that lets you pick your picture from your computer. Then click Upload.

Click Done at the bottom when you are done, and it will close that tab, but the attachment will be listed on the first tab where you compose your text.

Its way too many hoops to jump through, but its better than an expensive external host that will make you jump through its own hoops, and hold your photos hostage someday.

Your browser may vary.

....Cotten
PS: SilentGreyFellow!
What have you done for vintage motorcycling, lately?

Steve Swan
09-23-2017, 11:58 PM
Let's get back to the Steve's original topic, and something interesting.

This illustration is shows engines from 1910. I say that because the Merkel motor is a 1910 because it has the external mechanical oil pump on the outside of the cam/gear cover. 1911 used a throttle controlled oil dripper. So, I'm making a speculative leap of assumption and am saying that this trade magazine was showing a 1910 Harley-Davidson twin. Now, that could mean that the illustration was created in late 1910 from a trade show where H-D was introducing th3 1911 twin. Regardless, the Merkel twin is a 1910 for what that's worth:)

http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee341/cdo340/merkc_zpsqgrrkptu.jpg (http://s534.photobucket.com/user/cdo340/media/merkc_zpsqgrrkptu.jpg.html)

Eric, did the Flying Merkle have an actual oil pump that actually moved oil or was it a "drip regulator" seen on later Harley's ? On the 1910 Harley, how was oil flow controlled from the tank ?

exeric
09-24-2017, 08:18 AM
The 1910 Merkel had a mechanical oil pump that was a clock-work affair with pivot arms, springs, cams, and escapements. Just because you can make something work doesn't mean it's a good design:) In function, the Merkel mechanical pump dribbled oil on the timing gears, but was not a pressurized device to get oil into the crank shafts. I had a 1910 Merkel and of course, all of that mechanical stuff was shot. The 1911 used the miracle of gravity, and natural fluid dynamics to get oil to the motor. . . Worked like a dream. The Harley of that era also used an oil dripper, and the drip was controlled by a needle valve, and was viewable in the sight glass of the needle/seat fitting. I believe the H-D drip was controlled by a knurled knob on top of the tank. The knurls corresponded with a spring loaded detent so you could select your d.p.m. (drips per minute).

T. Cotten
09-24-2017, 10:38 AM
[QUOTE=T. Cotten;166333]Great pic Eric!

But photobucket phuckets with me if I try to view it any more closely, or save it.

Its so easy to save to this forum direct!

When you bring up the box to post your reply, look below it for a 'button' that says: Manage Attachments.
Click on it, and a second browser tab appears. Somewhere in small print among all the bells and whistles it will say: Add Files.
Click on that, and then look in the box that pops up for Basic Uploader.

Clicking on that will change that box to say Browse.
Clicking on that lets you pick your picture from your computer. Then click Upload.

Click Done at the bottom when you are done, and it will close that tab, but the attachment will be listed on the first tab where you compose your text.

Its way too many hoops to jump through, but its better than an expensive external host that will make you jump through its own hoops, and hold your photos hostage someday.

Your browser may vary.

....Cotten
PS: Late edit Folks,
After a full day, Eric's PhotoBucket post works, and at a decent resolution!

Steve Swan
09-24-2017, 11:05 AM
Thanks for your reply, Eric. What amazes me with these early pioneers of the gas combustion engine era, they had to think all this stuff up; it didn't exist until they made their ideas reality. their ideas were based on their understanding of the laws of physics, mathematics, chemistry, general scientific and practical knowledge of the day. really remarkable. would have been a fascinating era to have lived in; transportation beginning it's transition from animal power to mechanical power. using a needle valve to control oil d.p.m. is ingeniously simple and works perfectly under controlled conditions with no variables.

hopefully members who own these early machines will share what they know or others who have direct knowledge and/or other pictures will contribute. that would really be nice !

i've got a copy Victor Page's "Early Motorcycles" and have read here and there in it from time to time. i see no mention of the Sagher type spring fork nor does an internet search shed light. it would be really nice to hear more from more people.

moving on, going back to pictures i posted from the internet of the 1911 twin. i believe model designation "7D" ? was this the first year for a model designation on the twins ? also the first year the twin was referred to as "the silent grey fellow" ? Hatfield's book mentions the '11 twin had mechanical inlet valves; was this the first year for mechanical inlet valves ?

a forum member by name of "silent grey fellow" posted earlier; maybe he'll contribute, assuming he knows about anything about these machines.

exeric
09-24-2017, 12:30 PM
Hatfield's book mentions the '11 twin had mechanical inlet valves; was this the first year for mechanical inlet valves ?

It has always been my understanding that the 1911 H-D twin had mechanical intake valves, but looking at the above illustration, you'll notice that rendering shows atmospheric valves, and that makes me believe that drawing is of a earlier H-D twin design. Odd that H-D would allow an early design to muddy the water before the introduction of their improved 1911 twin.

Steve Swan
09-24-2017, 12:38 PM
Odd that H-D would allow an early design to muddy the water before the introduction of their improved 1911 twin.

maybe something as simple as "Motorcycle Illustrated" didn't have anything to go by for showing the new mechanical inlet valve design...?

T. Cotten
09-24-2017, 06:42 PM
I hate to stick my head up for abuse, and ask any more questions, but,...

Can anyone tell me the obvious differences from a J transmission and a later V model?

An associate just showed up with a prize from a meet, and I hope he's right that its early.

Thanks in advance Folks, because chassis are out of my zodiac,...

....Cotten

exeric
09-24-2017, 07:20 PM
That transmission went through many variations, and changes, Tom. The profound difference between early and late is; the shifter escapement. Early trans has a rotating clutch release shaft that runs across the top of trans, late uses the more conventional lever type clutch release arm (like knucks, and pans). Unfortunately, late JD, and early VL transmissions are very similar, but my trans knowledge is limited to early Js and I'll only embarrass myself if I try to elaborate:)

Steve Swan
09-24-2017, 08:58 PM
That transmission went through many variations, and changes, Tom. The profound difference between early and late is; the shifter escapement. Early trans has a rotating clutch release shaft that runs across the top of trans, late uses the more conventional lever type clutch release arm (like knucks, and pans). Unfortunately, late JD, and early VL transmissions are very similar, but my trans knowledge is limited to early Js and I'll only embarrass myself if I try to elaborate:)

We need Mark Masa ! (somewhere, in the past few months, i seem to recall there being a post asking diffs between jd & vl trans....)

Tommo
09-25-2017, 04:48 AM
Here's 3 pages out of 1913 MOTOR CYCLE magazines that cover the 1913 HD parcel delivery trike and details of the 1914 models.
I thought they might add some facts to this thread.
As for the VL gearbox the easiest id feature is the two ears on the drive end of the gearcase that mounts the inner chaincase.
You may find VL gearboxes that have been fitted to J models with these ears cut off.
If the clutch is fitted it will have a duplex sprocket and the main internal change is that the mainshaft no longer has a split brass bush for the final drive gear to turn on.
This is a very basic way to tell the difference between the two.

Steve Swan
09-25-2017, 10:45 AM
Here's 3 pages out of 1913 MOTOR CYCLE magazines that cover the 1913 HD parcel delivery trike and details of the 1914 models.
I thought they might add some facts to this thread.
As for the VL gearbox the easiest id feature is the two ears on the drive end of the gearcase that mounts the inner chaincase.
You may find VL gearboxes that have been fitted to J models with these ears cut off.
If the clutch is fitted it will have a duplex sprocket and the main internal change is that the mainshaft no longer has a split brass bush for the final drive gear to turn on.
This is a very basic way to tell the difference between the two.

Tommo, thanks for joining in ! Those are great articles, i really enjoyed reading them. It enjoyed reading about the pedal start and braking system. These bikes were the true bicycle framed motorcycles.

Steve Swan
09-25-2017, 10:49 AM
Hopefully we'll hear more about the '07 - '11 "doubles." Moving along, here's 5 pics i found on the internet of 1912. a couple are somewhat large and better view can be obtained.

2078620787207882078920790

well, turns out what i can see of these pics on my computer is not what shows up when i download them in to our website. so, not as large or closeup as i had hoped.

T. Cotten
09-25-2017, 11:15 AM
I appreciate the transmission replies, Folks,..

But I still wouldn't be able to tell the difference, and the fellow left with the box before I could make my camera's 'dumb' card 'smart' again.

And I appreciate your pics Steve, as I am still trying to figure out the various positions for the Schebler HX bowl. It appears that Js have the bowl cap directly under the airvalve, which doesn't seem convenient to me.

....Cotten
PS: A fellow at D-port (sorry for my 'name block') told me that "H" models became "HX" when threaded manifold attachments were replaced with flanges.
Should I revise my notes? Thanks again in advance...

Steve Swan
09-25-2017, 11:31 AM
Thanks Tom, I'm glad you're "in" this thread !

fwiw, i googled "original 1911 Harley Davidson." this is what i found. (some of the pics actually enlarge pretty nicely.) and of course i realize anything we see on the internet may not be accurate or even real. but i found these pics, purportedly of 1909 model, could be of interest.... I've never been to the factory museum, so i don't know what machines the factory has representative of each/every year of production. Or if a person can get good pics of machines displayed at the museum.

20794207912079220793

now what's hilarious about finding "information" on websites (actually disinformation) is the picture below, purported to be the "1911 Harley-Davidson V-twin motor with improved valve train." Even i know this is a 1927 engine; appears could be a factory picture. (pretty scary to think some people may believe what they read or see on internet is "true.")

20795

fwiw, here is the link to 1909 information - https://rideapart.com/articles/birth-harley-davidson-v-twin-motor

T. Cotten
09-25-2017, 01:02 PM
Wow, a manifold support!

Makes too much sense.

Thanks again for saving my 'data usage', Steve!


....Cotten

exeric
09-25-2017, 03:17 PM
Okay, I'm confused, Steve. That '11 is obviously the twin that Harley-Davidson owns and it's an early atmospheric intake motor. I've never questioned this bike until you brought all this up, Steve:) I do know there is controversy about this motorcycle in regards to no belt tensioner, and obvious tool room made parts. I know we have members that could give a detailed background on this bike, and the history of Harley's early doubles. I guess I could also read Herbert Wagner's superlative book on early H-D history:)

exeric
09-25-2017, 03:24 PM
Also, look at a copy of Herbert Wagner's "Classic Harley-Davidson 1903-1041". There are good pictures of Bruce Linsday's restored 1911 double and we all know Bruce knows what he's doing.

Steve Swan
09-25-2017, 04:22 PM
some observations i guess. 1st, is these bikes i'm picturing are restored and not original examples and as Tom pointed out, probably not reliable examples in terms of forming opinions or drawing conclusions. 2nd is i think i am going to slow down posting any more pics until we (hopefully) hear from members with more direct experience about these machines. in the process of waiting, if we don't hear from these members sooner than later, maybe we could give the thread an occasional "bing" to keep it alive...? 3rd, Eric the book you're referring to, is it "Classic Harley-Davidson" by Wagner and Girdler ? 4th, it sounds like there substantial information in books such as Wagner and Hatfield, perhaps this thread is redundant and unnecessary....?

T. Cotten
09-25-2017, 04:46 PM
some observations i guess. 1st, is these bikes i'm picturing are restored and not original examples and as Tom pointed out, probably not reliable examples in terms of forming opinions or drawing conclusions. 2nd is i think i am going to slow down posting any more pics until we (hopefully) hear from members with more direct experience about these machines. in the process of waiting, if we don't hear from these members sooner than later, maybe we could give the thread an occasional "bing" to keep it alive...? 3rd, Eric the book you're referring to, is it "Classic Harley-Davidson" by Wagner and Girdler ? 4th, it sounds like there substantial information in books such as Wagner and Hatfield, perhaps this thread is redundant and unnecessary....?

Gosh, Steve!

All I did was scratch my chin.

....Cotten

Tommo
09-25-2017, 05:03 PM
There's at least 4 books that cover this topic extensively and anyone who is interested in this subject should read and inwardly digest them
They are listed below in no particular order and yes some of them have mistakes in them.
Inside Harley-Davidson by Jerry Hatfield
The Legend Begins by the Harley-Davidson Motor Company
Harley-Davidson Data Book by Rick Conner
At the Creation by Herbert Wagner
The David Wright and Harry Sucher books are also worth a read but these two books have assumptions and errors that make them not the best reference books.
That's my thoughts anyway

exeric
09-25-2017, 05:21 PM
Like I said, much of this has been discussed, but it always bears repeating because new members, and casual readers don't have this reference material. It's all well and good to be an "expert" or above the common schlubb that doesn't know about early H-D history but again, this stuff bears repeating because that is what keeps history alive. A forum is a living thing, and if we just assume everyone knows everything, then we're just wasting our damn time.

T. Cotten
09-25-2017, 06:22 PM
Sorry to be a 'schlubb' by default, Folks, but...

I shy away from "coffee table" books.
(Got some hanging on the wall, though...)

Anything by the true scholar Mr. Wagner, however, is certainly a cut above those!
I know its no excuse, but I can't afford all of his publications, since only a few pages usually fall in my 'zodiac'.
But his contributions are the only reason I open my AMCA magazines.

Just being honest.

....Cotten
PS: So what on good Earth happened to manifold supports?

Rubone
09-25-2017, 06:36 PM
Too bad this thread went downhill so fast, it initially had promise....
Thanks for trying Steve.

T. Cotten
09-25-2017, 06:45 PM
Too bad this thread went downhill so fast, it initially had promise....
Thanks for trying Steve.

I learned a lot.

Ain't that what its all about?

Or do questions queer it for the 'elite'?

....Cotten
PS: Any insights why the H-D had a practical carb/manifold support, and then apparently abandoned it, only to return to sensible supports much later?
(Broken fins would only highlight the real problem, wouldn't it?)

exeric
09-25-2017, 06:58 PM
Too bad this thread went downhill so fast, it initially had promise....
Thanks for trying Steve.

I don't think it's done. I give Steve a lot of credit for starting this, but it relies on input, and all of us need to keep it on track. It's easy to point fingers, but people need to park their egos and post what they know, and pictures they have access to; which will benefit the neophytes, and the experts.

My suggestion at this point is to forget 1911, and go to 1912 twins. Obviously, 1911 is too snooty for the experts to discuss.

TechNoir
09-26-2017, 07:33 AM
This is a thread that is worth persevering with. I have been following with interest but I cant really offer too much for anything other than 1920 which is the year of my bike.

John

Steve Swan
09-26-2017, 10:42 AM
This is a thread that is worth persevering with. I have been following with interest but I cant really offer too much for anything other than 1920 which is the year of my bike.

John

Thanks John, i appreciate your comment. '20 and '27 shall come and looking forward to getting our turns. i just wish folks with these early bikes would chime in, but then they may not be following the forum, have the time or care.

Steve Swan
09-26-2017, 11:07 AM
There's at least 4 books that cover this topic extensively and anyone who is interested in this subject should read and inwardly digest them
They are listed below in no particular order and yes some of them have mistakes in them.
Inside Harley-Davidson by Jerry Hatfield
The Legend Begins by the Harley-Davidson Motor Company
Harley-Davidson Data Book by Rick Conner
At the Creation by Herbert Wagner
The David Wright and Harry Sucher books are also worth a read but these two books have assumptions and errors that make them not the best reference books.
That's my thoughts anyway

I'm guessing Wagner's books are out of print. i just bought Wagner's "Classic Harley-Davidson" for $27. the cheapest i could find "At the Creation" was $710.15... cheese and rice ! or Jesus Christ ! i guess the seller is fishing for jay leno. i have Hatfield's "Inside Harley-Davidson," it has some good information, enjoyed reading it, but covers alot of ground, thereby missing detail.

T. Cotten
09-26-2017, 03:11 PM
I'm more than curious, Folks,..

Was the motor photo that Steve posted a prototype, explaining why I cannot find a manifold support in any vintage photos?

I find its attachment to the manifold/carb quite enigmatic.

Thanks in advance as always...

....Cotten
PS: That photo, and other vintage photos lead me to believe that placing the bowl cap directly beneath the airvalve is just a modern vanity point.

Tommo
09-26-2017, 05:26 PM
I've lifted the page concerning the 1909 models from The Legend Begins and just hope that the HD Motor Company understands.
I'm probably sticking my neck out a bit to far but I want to illustrate to those on here the type of information available in this publication.
1909 has the first mention of a production "double cylinder" bike so I will leave it up to those on this forum to decide where the 1907 double fits in.
Finally I wish to publicly apologise to The Harley-Davidson Motor Company for the use of this page from their copyrighted publication and hope they understand that it was done in promotion of their book.

Steve Swan
09-26-2017, 09:04 PM
Tommo, i need to get me a copy of "the legend begins." thanks for sharing. god bless H-D, can't imagine they'd be pissed off over such small potatoes.

alanc48
10-01-2017, 09:30 AM
I have a 1928 JDL and can't find much information about them, anyone have any input?

MMasa
10-01-2017, 10:20 PM
Sorry for getting to the party so late.
A few pages back Tom was asking about JD vs VL transmissions. Tommo is right that an easy tell are the mounts for the inner primary cover. There are 1 or 2 year VLs that don't have them and they are also sometimes cut off and the edge ground down to the point where it isn't obvious that they were ever there. In that case another tell is the position of the lug on the underside for the adjustment bolt. On J models it is inward of the kicker cover mounting face. On VLs it is to the right about 1/2" to 3/4".
Mark

MMasa
10-01-2017, 10:22 PM
Alan
What specifically do you want to know about a JDL?
Mark

Rubone
10-05-2017, 01:15 PM
1913 sales order form. Note they are still using the number designation on these, nine being the ninth year of production since the first '04 models.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/924/GA36gd.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poGA36gdj)

Rubone
10-05-2017, 01:26 PM
By 1916 the designations had changed and many more options were available.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/923/S6SlhY.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnS6SlhYj)

knucklehead 61
10-05-2017, 03:08 PM
1914 sales order form. Note they are still using the number designation on these, nine being the ninth year of production since the first '05 models.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/924/GA36gd.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poGA36gdj)

that is a 1913 order form as I used to own a model model 9-E.
very cool!

Steve Swan
10-05-2017, 04:04 PM
Thanks for your fine posts, guys ! I've been reading Wagner's "Classic Harley-Davidson, 1903-1941." Good stuff

Rubone
10-05-2017, 04:17 PM
A couple more..

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/923/n8IO4V.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnn8IO4Vj)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/922/ZuLrZ6.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmZuLrZ6j)

Rubone
10-05-2017, 04:19 PM
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/923/qdahiN.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnqdahiNj)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/923/1MftuL.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pn1MftuLj)

Rubone
10-05-2017, 04:21 PM
1926

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/923/IUZ9i4.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnIUZ9i4j)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/922/NYVxRz.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmNYVxRzj)

Steve Swan
10-05-2017, 04:37 PM
Robbie, thank you so much for sharing these ! i just snagged this picture off the internet; i thought it's really cool and apropos to the thread. Belt driven "double," can we tell from the picture what year?

20835

exeric
10-05-2017, 05:04 PM
First off, thank you Robbie for posting the order blanks. Most striking to me is the last year, 1922 WJ Sport model @ $340.00 for the full electric; and 1 year later, the top-of-the-line 1923 full electric JD is $10 cheaper @ $230.00. The Sport is a sad footnote in H-D history because that was a bike that should have survived. Obviously, sales were low for the Sport, but I think it was a bike that came at a bad time, and maybe wasn't marketed right. . . Could'a, should'a, would'a; the motorcycle world is full of brilliant motorcycles that didn't survive.

T. Cotten
10-05-2017, 05:51 PM
Robbie, thank you so much for sharing these ! i just snagged this picture off the internet; i thought it's really cool and apropos to the thread. Belt driven "double," can we tell from the picture what year?

20835I don't know the year, Steve,...

...But I would call it an aftermarket accessory.

....Cotten

TechNoir
10-05-2017, 05:54 PM
OK, seeing that we seem to have moved on from the early teens to the early twenties in short order I will upload some pages from an original 1920 UK export brochure that I have.

Apart from prices being in pounds, the other obvious differences between standard USA spec and UK spec are a different sidecar was offered in the UK. A UK made item, I guess because of cost. Also, as has been mentioned before, the "front" brake was standard in the UK due to the UK law compelling a bike to have 2 separate brakes. And lastly a front stand was standard over here. The last picture is of the spec sheet for the bikes.

Apart from that I believe the rest of the specs are the same as the USA bikes.

I have also listed a couple of items relating to the horizontally opposed engine which in theory is a 180 degree "Vee" twin but is not IoE but instead a side vale with "superheated" manifold. I figure it might be of interest even if not strictly correct for this thread.

There is a slip of paper with the prices of extras stuck inside the front cover which I thought would be of interest.

http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bboard/attachment.php?attachmentid=20837&d=1507239532

http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bboard/attachment.php?attachmentid=20836&d=1507239525

http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bboard/attachment.php?attachmentid=20838&d=1507239543

http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bboard/attachment.php?attachmentid=20839&d=1507239551

http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bboard/attachment.php?attachmentid=20840&d=1507239562


If the pictures are not big enough to see I can re-post them at a higher resolution.

John

Steve Swan
10-05-2017, 09:14 PM
I don't know the year, Steve,...

...But I would call it an aftermarket accessory.

....Cotten

Great picture Tom !

Steve Swan
10-05-2017, 09:18 PM
ok ! here's more pictures i've snagged of the 'net.

191220851

Steve Swan
10-23-2017, 12:04 PM
thought i'd kick the ball on this thread, will post pics i have of what are stated 1913 models.

Are these in fact 1913 models? 2096720968

please post pics you have of any of these models.

Steve Swan
10-23-2017, 12:06 PM
and here are what are stated 1914 models

are they in fact 1914 models? 2096920970

Steve Swan
10-23-2017, 12:08 PM
and here are what are stated as 1915 models.

Are these 1915 models? 2097120972

exeric
10-23-2017, 04:10 PM
I've always liked early Harleys in that darker shade of gray; whether that's correct seems to be the $64 question. If I ever restore my '16, I am fortunate to have an O.P. left side tank with glossy paint on the inside. I'm sure that is still no guarantee since 100 years of exposure has to affect the color. I guess there will never be a universal consensus on H-D gray, and Indian Red:)

T. Cotten
10-23-2017, 04:21 PM
Hokey Smoke, Eric!

If its re-painted, it makes little difference, as modern paints are spectroscopically different anyway.

Answer to yourself, not those who wish to rule over you.

....Cotten

exeric
10-23-2017, 07:57 PM
Whoa! I'm not going there, Tom :)

Steve Swan
10-23-2017, 09:02 PM
I've always liked early Harleys in that darker shade of gray; whether that's correct seems to be the $64 question. If I ever restore my '16, I am fortunate to have an O.P. left side tank with glossy paint on the inside. I'm sure that is still no guarantee since 100 years of exposure has to affect the color. I guess there will never be a universal consensus on H-D gray, and Indian Red:)

in the picture of the '14, the color looks blue, is it actually the light grey and it's the light picking up pigment in the paint?

knucklehead 61
10-23-2017, 09:06 PM
yes, those appear to be 1913 models. 12 & 13 are very similar. 14 went to foot boards. 11 didn't have the sloping rear gas tank.

Steve Swan
10-23-2017, 09:32 PM
yes, those appear to be 1913 models. 12 & 13 are very similar. 14 went to foot boards. 11 didn't have the sloping rear gas tank.

Footboards and pedals is quite the combination ! i'll bet when the '16's came out, the 15's fell out of favor, who'd want to be riding a motorcycle with bicycle pedals....?
I WOULD!!!!

exeric
10-24-2017, 07:43 AM
Pedal start was still offered in 1916, and I wish I had it on my '16. Pedal start works much better on an ornery, obstinate motor. However, I think H-D was obliging long-time customers who preferred pedal start, to the 'new fangled' step starter. It was the same deal with electrics, which met with skepticism, and caution; and is why it's so hard to find generators, magnetos, and electrical components for pre-1920 motorcycles.

duffeycycles
10-24-2017, 09:01 AM
A quick look,the '15 twin should not have the bar & shield on the right side.It should have the oak leaf crest.Looking at colors on the web is useless.Each monitor can give diff colors.

exeric
10-24-2017, 11:12 AM
Looking at colors on the web is useless.Each monitor can give diff colors.

The whole concept of defining color is a pointless exercise in futility, particularly when it comes to ancient colors like H-D gray, Olive, or Indian Red. There are countless factors that influence color, from proportion of pigment, degradation of ingredients, and the millions of different human eyes that look at a particular color. Also, H-D bought their paint in huge lot quantities of unknown amounts, so no telling how different those multi-gallon lots were from each other. All I said was, I prefer the darker gray to the light gray and wonder what H-D gray looked like in the 'Silent Gray' era.

TechNoir
10-24-2017, 01:00 PM
Picking up on Erics point about colours, I had some correspondence with a J owner in Slovakia earlier this year about Olive Green and he was telling me that he is also into classic Jawa motorcycles and he has compared various parts from the same year bikes that are in original paint and they have 5 or 6 slight variations of shade even though they are supposed to be the same colout.

I would imagine that the same is true of all bikes made in volume in days gone by.

John

Steve Swan
12-07-2017, 03:26 PM
ok, i thought i'd give this thread another kick fwiw. are these 1916 models? i will be posting pics of the rest of the teen models, and will be interested to hear the differences. on another note, i jsut finished Herber Wagner's "At the Creation," what a great book. and i also finished "At the Creation." both gave alot of great info wich answered my newbie-type questions. However, a lot of year/model specifics on the J/JD series is not collected in one place.

ok. here's the two pics i've found of what are called 16 models.211932119421195

oh yes! i found this in my files, looks like a period picture? machine looks new. factory picture? the pic is titled as 1916, but seems the position of the battery box is later? 1918?

if you triple click on the pic, it enlarges delightfully! 21196

exeric
12-07-2017, 06:18 PM
As you progress through the 4 pictures, the 1st bike is the most correct, and authentically restored 1916. The 2nd bike was probably a nice original before it was over-done (mostly correct, but wrong muffler). The 3rd bike has a later frame, spring fork, seat assy., gas tanks, and rear stand which are visible from the left side. The 4th bike, I believe is a pre-production factory photo of a 1920 as the cylinders are pre-'20. The battery box in the last picture is for an electric model, and all battery boxes looked about the same, starting from 1915. The other bikes are non-electric models and have a tool box in place of the battery box. The 1916 is my favorite J, but I'm prejudiced.

Steve Swan
12-07-2017, 06:45 PM
Thanks Eric, for your reply. What would have been the last year for the pentagonal (i am assuming) battery/tool box? i have a quite a few pics that have the pentagonal box, and are called 17, 18, and 19 models, then the 20's have the square box again. so, i am guessing whoever assigned a year to these photos didn't know what they were looking at or did the factory go back and forth with the rectangular and pentagonal boxes, because in Hatfield's book, Inside Harley Davidson, between years 16-24, various years are one or the other shape.

so, here's what are called a 1917 model. Is it a 1917? What was first year for tool box on top of tank? 2119721198

Another question, the rear brake, was it an internally expanding shoe design? Inner mechanisms seem pretty well covered up compared to the externally contracting brake on later models.

exeric
12-07-2017, 07:31 PM
Mark Masa could better answer the toolbox/batter box evolution questions, but I believe that tool box went well into the 1920s and probably until H-D no longer offered a magneto model. What I mean is; you got a battery box (square box) with an electric model, and the angular box, you called a pentagonal box was used on all non-electric, or magneto models. When you got an electric model, the toolbox was mounted on top of the gas tanks as you can see on the 1920J picture you posted, and this 1917 J picture. Phew! Early Js went through many, many tiny detail changes, but barely changed on the outside.

The picture you posted could well be a 1917, and this bike has the very rare Remy electrical system. The most distinguishing feature to appear in 1917 was the rear stand, and you can readily see the difference when you compare it to the 1916 Js. There were many subtle changes in 1917, most of which were in the frame. The early J era can be very confusing, as the 1916 - 1920 Js were very similar at first glance. Changes were more pronounced in '21 when H-D introduced the 74".

Steve Swan
12-07-2017, 10:18 PM
Wow and phew for sure! that first paragraph is a mind boggler! would be great to hear Mark's comments.

so here are what are purported to be 1918 pictures. one good, one not so good and one i think we have seen before...211992120021201

Steve Swan
12-07-2017, 10:22 PM
Mark Masa could better answer the toolbox/batter box evolution questions, but I believe that tool box went well into the 1920s and probably until H-D no longer offered a magneto model. What I mean is; you got a battery box (square box) with an electric model, and the angular box, you called a pentagonal box was used on all non-electric, or magneto models. When you got an electric model, the toolbox was mounted on top of the gas tanks as you can see on the 1920J picture you posted, and this 1917 J picture. Phew! Early Js went through many, many tiny detail changes, but barely changed on the outside.

The picture you posted could well be a 1917, and this bike has the very rare Remy electrical system. The most distinguishing feature to appear in 1917 was the rear stand, and you can readily see the difference when you compare it to the 1916 Js. There were many subtle changes in 1917, most of which were in the frame. The early J era can be very confusing, as the 1916 - 1920 Js were very similar at first glance. Changes were more pronounced in '21 when H-D introduced the 74".

Also, i found these in another file, i think 1917? 2120221203

Steve Swan
12-07-2017, 10:28 PM
and here are what are stated as 1915 models.

Are these 1915 models? 2097120972

so, then i found more pics of he bike on the right in another file i had 212042120521206

exeric
12-08-2017, 09:18 AM
Wow and phew for sure! that first paragraph is a mind boggler! would be great to hear Mark's comments.

so here are what are purported to be 1918 pictures. one good, one not so good and one i think we have seen before...211992120021201

If you look at the order blanks Robbie posted earlier, they help to define the difference between the 'F' model (magneto), and the 'J' model (electric).

Regarding the pictures you posted of 1918s. The last of the 3 is most probably a 1918, however, it started out as a full electric, but lost it's Remy unit at some point in it's life. That bike came out of Georgia and recently someone here on this forum had bought it and was trying to get information about it.

MMasa
12-08-2017, 10:12 PM
not much to add.
Eric's posts are pretty much spot on.
Mark

Steve Swan
12-09-2017, 08:09 PM
Well, i'll keep kicking this sucker til i run out of pictures. here are what are said to be 1919 pics. i only have two.2121821219

Steve Swan
12-09-2017, 08:15 PM
here are some o.p. pics of what is supposed to be 1920 models, perhaps these pics will be more interesting because they are original machines. i tried to find pics of original machines whenever i could, but not that easy. as the years advance, we'll be seeing a few more o.p. machines than restored. i'm going to wait til we hear from John Brookes in England, before i post later years. i also now clearly see the diff between mag and gen models as far as the battery vs. tool box shapes goes. if you triple click on the mag model bike, the pics enlarge pleasantly.

2122021221212222122321224

Steve Slocombe
12-10-2017, 05:18 AM
Here's a late reply on beryllium copper. I have some scrap left after cutting out the 1926-36 Harley dash contacts.

T. Cotten
12-10-2017, 11:03 AM
How thick is it, Steve?

....Cotten

TechNoir
12-10-2017, 03:04 PM
Hello All, I see my name mentioned above. Steve, great pictures of OP machines. Eric is spot on re the tool box/battery box differences between the F and the J models. Here are 1920 brochure pictures of the two showing the same differences (I have posted these previously but these are better quality)

It is my understanding that 1920 is the last year of the separate front and rear brake in the USA (the front brake was an option in the USA) and in 1921 there was a rocker pedal so you could only use one at a time.

Also, as I mentioned a few pages previously, the UK models had the front brake and the front stand as standard whereas the front brake and front stand were an option in the USA. The rear rack was standard in the UK too, was it standard or an option in the USA?

In the UK the speedometer was an option priced at 5 10/. My bike had it fitted and it is the Johns Manville type which Eric informs me is even rarer than the usual speedometer found in the USA which is the Corbin type. The Johns Manville speedo is very similar to the one found in Model T Fords which is a common instrument and anyone wanting to fit one could adapt a Ford item to look very authentic.


http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bboard/attachment.php?attachmentid=21231&d=1512935116


http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bboard/attachment.php?attachmentid=21230&d=1512935088

John

Tommo
12-11-2017, 01:15 AM
Toolboxes are another one of those minefields that affect 1916 to 1924 electric model Harleys.
I've posted pictures of both the narrow and wide versions.
You'll see the wide version has provision for an ammeter mount on the top and is the later 1922/23 version with clips to locate the wires from the ammeter.
I've seen both narrow and wide versions with no provision for the ammeter and conversely I have seen both with the raised mount for the ammeter.
When you go chasing answers in the parts book you just get more confused as the factory used the same numbers as they changed the styles.
What's right for what year is a bit of a mystery to me but I do know that the wide one in my pictures came off a 1923 J model Harley.
My 1920 has the narrow one with no ammeter mount present but a nice original 1918 here in NZ has the narrow one with the ammeter mount.
I know there are at least 4 different styles of toolboxes that were fitted to big twin Harleys between 1916 to 1924 and I'm not game to say exactly which one is correct for any of those years.

Tommo
12-11-2017, 01:53 AM
The 4 pictures I've posted here are all from original HD Factory Sales Brochures and show 1916, 1917, 1919 and 1921 Electric model Harleys.
From these images you will see no evidence of any raised platform for the ammeter to mount to but there are plenty of both narrow and wide toolboxes in existence with ammeter mounts so where do they fit into the picture?
Your call.

TechNoir
12-11-2017, 02:43 AM
Hello Tommo, I think factories only listed significant changes for a new model year. My 39 model Triumph has a few small differences from the 1938 model that are not listed in the official list of changes between the years. I suspect that a lot of manufacturers were the same so therefore the only way of working out all of the differences is to find original machines which, after 100 years, is a tall order.

This is one of the reasons why I wouldn't do shows. A doubt that most judges would be aware of all of the subtle changes in a bike between years.

John

Steve Slocombe
12-11-2017, 03:15 AM
For Tom, the beryllium copper looks like 1 mm thick nominal, say 0.037"

Steve Slocombe
12-11-2017, 03:26 AM
For Tommo, here's a picture of the first aid box on a 1936 VLH Police bike. Looks familiar. Maybe Harley used a standard box and kept altering it for different model bikes. Box dimension is 7 1/2" x 5".

Rubone
12-11-2017, 09:45 AM
Years back I had a nice OP tank top toolbox that I bought in a farm/estate sale thinking it would be a good first aid box candidate, but the latch system pointed out the age and the original finish made me pass it on to someone needing it.

T. Cotten
12-11-2017, 01:06 PM
For Tom, the beryllium copper looks like 1 mm thick nominal, say 0.037"

Unfortunately, Steve,

The cam strips are only .020"

Thanks for looking,

....Cotten

Steve Swan
12-11-2017, 01:46 PM
Thanks John and Tommo for posting fine factory pictures. Very interesting info on the variations of tank toolboxes.

Here are what pics i have of what are stated as 1921. 2124221243

if nothing else, this thread will have a collection of brochures and pictures of the factory's production twins in one thread.

Steve Swan
12-11-2017, 01:49 PM
and i only have this pic of what is stated a 22.21244

on the frame, front down tube, what is purpose of that bracket held by 4 bolts and what appears a little lever with rod(s)....?

Steve Swan
12-11-2017, 01:55 PM
After posting these pics of a 23, i won't post for a couple days or so.2124521246

i don't have any decent pics of a 1924 model.

starting 1925 through 29, i have quite a few pics.

duffeycycles
12-11-2017, 02:27 PM
Bracket is front sidecar mount....backwards? The levers & rods are for compression release etc

Steve Swan
12-11-2017, 02:56 PM
Bracket is front sidecar mount....backwards? The levers & rods are for compression release etc

yes, i see the lug pointing backwards now. and i see the rod going to compression release on gear cover. i've studied pics on earlier models, trying to see how the release is actuated, by hand somewhere on the frame? not like the 25-onward toe actuated models. did this rod/lever feature end with the '24 models?

duffeycycles
12-11-2017, 04:49 PM
left twist grip retards timing and opens the compression release on cam cover

exeric
12-11-2017, 05:03 PM
It is my understanding that 1920 is the last year of the separate front and rear brake in the USA (the front brake was an option in the USA) and in 1921 there was a rocker pedal so you could only use one at a time.

Also, as I mentioned a few pages previously, the UK models had the front brake and the front stand as standard whereas the front brake and front stand were an option in the USA. The rear rack was standard in the UK too, was it standard or an option in the USA?

John, are you referring to the hand brake, or export brake, as it was known here in the U.S?

duffeycycles
12-11-2017, 05:32 PM
That is a bit confusing to us. Front Brake started in '28.
But hand brake option was much earlier

TechNoir
12-11-2017, 05:44 PM
Yes, I meant the hand brake on the bars, not a brake on the front wheel.

John

Steve Swan
12-11-2017, 05:59 PM
left twist grip retards timing and opens the compression release on cam cover

Thanks Duffey!

Rubone
12-11-2017, 06:26 PM
I just thought of these. I can scan specific info as well.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/922/5yECyB.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pm5yECyBj)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/922/0Z2iwS.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pm0Z2iwSj)

Tommo
12-11-2017, 06:50 PM
I think anybody should be very careful when holding up restored bikes as a benchmark as to what a specific year should look like.
The exhausts on both the 1922 and 1923 that you posted Steve are not at all like what the factory fitted in the day.
The 22 has no cut out door on the muffler and the 23 tail pipe is slash cut on the end and totally the wrong profile.
I don't put exhaust cut outs in the systems I make for 1925 to 28 Harleys because that is the way I like it but I make sure anyone photographing my bikes are aware of this and don't take it as factory.
My point here is that restored bikes can be very misleading and cause a lot of grief to the person looking to do a perfectly factory restoration.

Steve Swan
12-11-2017, 07:25 PM
I think anybody should be very careful when holding up restored bikes as a benchmark as to what a specific year should look like.
The exhausts on both the 1922 and 1923 that you posted Steve are not at all like what the factory fitted in the day.
The 22 has no cut out door on the muffler and the 23 tail pipe is slash cut on the end and totally the wrong profile.
I don't put exhaust cut outs in the systems I make for 1925 to 28 Harleys because that is the way I like it but I make sure anyone photographing my bikes are aware of this and don't take it as factory.
My point here is that restored bikes can be very misleading and cause a lot of grief to the person looking to do a perfectly factory restoration.

Tommo, i very much totally appreciate what you are saying regarding the hazards of using a restored motorcycle as a benchmark for determining/assuming originality. my feeling on any restored motorcycle, no matter how faithful the execution in keeping with original, the bike is not original. not to misunderstand what i am saying, i do appreciate the pains-taking effort and the time required to make every detail of the bike as close to original as possible.

the reason i started this thread is because i knew essentially nothing about H-D V-twins and knew there was at least 21 model years of twins, so i started collecting off the internet the best possible pictures of each year model i could find. i quickly realized looking at these pics of different years, i had no clue what i really was looking at, if these bikes were actually the year purported and what was correct or incorrect.

it just hit me one evening, i had all these pics and thought perhaps it would be nice to have a thread where all the different years could be seen in one place. i was hoping when i started the thread, people would post pics of better examples such as unmolested original machines. and certainly hope fellows will post original factory information, as you, Robbie and John have been doing.

all that being said, i realize some of these pics of these restored machines, undoubtedly some of you fellows know the owners and may possibly be reluctant to scrutinize in writing what is not correct on these bikes.

i just thought it would be fun to see the 21 year evolution from the first to the last IoE H-D twins. starting 1925, and especially beginning 1926, i have alot more pics of unmolested machines and factory photos.

like i said, i don't have any decent pics of the 24 model and as a teaser, i believe this is a pic of an original 25 model, correct me if this is not a 25 model. aloso ineresting, i JUST NOW noticed, the bike has no tool box...
if you click on it 3 times, it enlarges delightfully!21256

one thing that is bugging the heck out of me is if the vin pad/boss the engine number is stamped on was painted with the rest of the case or left raw. looking at the pic of this 25 and of pics of my Dad's 27, it appears the pad is raw. i painted my vin pad but am wondering if i should leave it or remove the paint...?

Robert Luland
12-11-2017, 07:55 PM
Steve, first off that's not a 22 and has to have the poorest excuse for an exhaust system I seen. What people will pay for in this business is beyond me. 22/23 Were Brewster green. All most black. All mufflers 1920-23 had a cut out door on the side unlike it's predecessor which technically were on top of the muffler. It was put there so the rider could nail it with the side of his foot. What was different was the tail pipe. 1020-21 Had the same pipe as the earlier tail pipes but a little shorter with all the bends around the tire but had the slash cuts down the side and the end plugged. 22/23 was straight out of the muffler and strait down at a 45 degree angle with the side slash cuts and plugged end.
Bob L

Steve Swan
12-11-2017, 07:58 PM
Bob, what year is it?

Robert Luland
12-11-2017, 08:08 PM
1922 my friend. No hinge on the rear fender. It's a JD by the front fender. Why it's painted that way I don't know. The thing on the front is the side car hook up turned to the back. Bob L

exeric
12-11-2017, 08:46 PM
Like Bob said, '22, and '23 were Brewster Green which I think is one of the best (if not the best) looking colors for J era Harleys. I've always wondered why H-D went back to baby puke green in '24:)

Tommo
12-11-2017, 09:49 PM
Olive Drab was an option in 1922 and 23.
According to Herb Longden, the service manager for the NZ importers Jones Brothers, they came into NZ about 50/50.
Half Brewster Green and the other half Olive Drab.

exeric
12-12-2017, 09:37 AM
I meant no disrespect to Olive Drab, or Military Drab as Excelsior & Henderson called it. Actually, quite the opposite because I love the color and was happy to paint my 1919 Henderson Military Drab.

http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee341/cdo340/19b.jpg (http://s534.photobucket.com/user/cdo340/media/19b.jpg.html)

Steve Swan
12-12-2017, 11:30 AM
Exquisite, Eric !

Tommo
12-12-2017, 02:00 PM
Bobs comment gave the impression that Brewster Green was the only colour for 1922 and 23.
My post was intended to point out that it wasn't the only colour during those years and that an Olive Drab painted bike was also correct during that time span.
Nice Henderson Eric

Robert Luland
12-12-2017, 07:03 PM
Like I said. I don't know why it's painted that way, now I know. Thanks Pete

Chris Haynes
12-12-2017, 11:57 PM
1909.
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp209/hd36knuck/190920Harley-Davidson20V-Twin20Right-Front_zpsq0xjmnvp.jpg (http://s412.photobucket.com/user/hd36knuck/media/190920Harley-Davidson20V-Twin20Right-Front_zpsq0xjmnvp.jpg.html)

Chris Haynes
12-13-2017, 12:05 AM
1912 First Chain Drive
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp209/hd36knuck/00400approx%201912%20BE%20twin%20first%20chain-drive%20H-D_zps004dzvz8.jpg (http://s412.photobucket.com/user/hd36knuck/media/00400approx%201912%20BE%20twin%20first%20chain-drive%20H-D_zps004dzvz8.jpg.html)

Chris Haynes
12-13-2017, 12:07 AM
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp209/hd36knuck/01694_zps0r0pbvkt.jpg (http://s412.photobucket.com/user/hd36knuck/media/01694_zps0r0pbvkt.jpg.html)

Chris Haynes
12-13-2017, 12:15 AM
1913
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp209/hd36knuck/1913%20H-D_zpsxyam3zvw.jpg (http://s412.photobucket.com/user/hd36knuck/media/1913%20H-D_zpsxyam3zvw.jpg.html)

Chris Haynes
12-13-2017, 12:18 AM
1913 belt
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp209/hd36knuck/1913belt_zpsaqq3lkd9.jpg (http://s412.photobucket.com/user/hd36knuck/media/1913belt_zpsaqq3lkd9.jpg.html)

Chris Haynes
12-13-2017, 12:20 AM
1915 8 Valve

http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp209/hd36knuck/1915%208%20valve_zpsjj5tz01i.jpg (http://s412.photobucket.com/user/hd36knuck/media/1915%208%20valve_zpsjj5tz01i.jpg.html)

Steve Swan
12-13-2017, 12:24 AM
Beautiful Chris ! Thank you !

Chris Haynes
12-13-2017, 12:28 AM
1922 Otto Walker
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp209/hd36knuck/1922%20Otto%20Walker_zpsmweqbrwq.jpg (http://s412.photobucket.com/user/hd36knuck/media/1922%20Otto%20Walker_zpsmweqbrwq.jpg.html)

Chris Haynes
12-13-2017, 12:30 AM
1926 Factory racer
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp209/hd36knuck/1926%20factory%20racer%20left%20side_zpsahduedij.j pg (http://s412.photobucket.com/user/hd36knuck/media/1926%20factory%20racer%20left%20side_zpsahduedij.j pg.html)

Chris Haynes
12-13-2017, 12:35 AM
1915 Ray Weishaar
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp209/hd36knuck/02834%20ca%201915.%20Ray%20Weishaar_zpsal4etwhf.jp g (http://s412.photobucket.com/user/hd36knuck/media/02834%20ca%201915.%20Ray%20Weishaar_zpsal4etwhf.jp g.html)

Chris Haynes
12-13-2017, 12:45 AM
1920
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp209/hd36knuck/8235_zpswreh8rxl.jpg (http://s412.photobucket.com/user/hd36knuck/media/8235_zpswreh8rxl.jpg.html)

Steve Swan
12-15-2017, 10:01 PM
1925 pics21270212712127221274

Steve Swan
12-15-2017, 10:12 PM
1926 2127821279212772128021281

Steve Swan
12-15-2017, 10:14 PM
more 26 2128221283212842128521286

Steve Swan
12-15-2017, 10:17 PM
i snagged these off ebay a couple-three years ago. supposedly this 1927 cutaway is factory and came out of south america. does anyone know where it is now?

2128721288212892129021291

Steve Swan
12-15-2017, 10:19 PM
i snagged these off ebay a couple-three years ago. supposedly this 1927 cutaway is factory and came out of south america. does anyone know where it is now?

2129221293212942129521296

Steve Swan
12-15-2017, 10:21 PM
one last pic of the 1927 cutaway and some original 27 pics2129721298212992130021301

Steve Swan
12-15-2017, 10:26 PM
a couple more original 27 pics. the complete bike shown, when it was found, was very briefly either here or caimag.

2130221303213042130521306

Steve Swan
12-15-2017, 10:34 PM
a couple more 27 pics
and, i couldn't resist.....:cool: 2131121310

Steve Swan
12-15-2017, 10:42 PM
some original 1928 pics

2131221313213142131521316

Steve Swan
12-15-2017, 10:44 PM
a few more original 28 pics

2131721318213192132021321

Steve Swan
12-15-2017, 10:58 PM
finally, the end of the line..... a couple pics of a sort of original red 29 that sold out of Montana on ebay a couple years ago. and the perhaps infamous st. louis car "museum" green 29. i looked long and hard at that bike when i first discovered the "museum" probably close to 10 years ago. the price just seemed a bit out of reach to me. it sold for around $26k, then disappeared for about 1.5 years and reappeared on ebay maybe a year later (about 3+ years ago) as a completely restored cream color, did not meet asking price of $75k. round 2 on ebay, sold for $50k as i recall. the resto looked really nice. finally, the bright red one, as i recall was from spain. i found a bunch of pictures of it about 6 or 8 years ago when i was in early in my interest of things JD. The bright red one really had me peeing my pants, because i loved the color and because my Dad had traded his 27 in on a new 29 to Billy Wolfe Cycles in Lincoln, Nebraska. Dad had to turn the 29 back in, he could not afford it because of depression, had returned back to the farm after a 2 year stint in college, so he was a poor farm boy again.

2132221323213242132521326

TechNoir
12-16-2017, 04:51 AM
Great pictures Steve.

That perfectly restored 27 is a fine looking bike. ;)

John

MMasa
12-16-2017, 06:40 AM
Steve
No idea where that cutaway engine is but it's pretty cool. I've often thought about making one out of damaged, or scrap parts. Never seem to find the time though.
Mark

Steve Swan
12-16-2017, 08:31 AM
Thanks John and Mark. Hopefully we'll have a few more replies and perhaps some pictures before this thread goes to sleep.

my earlier question went unanswered. was the vin boss on LH crankcase painted or left raw from the factory?

i seem to recall that cutaway sold for around $10k. i wonder if it was factory? as i recall it was at some technical training school in south america before going on ebay.

Robert Luland
12-16-2017, 12:44 PM
The vin pad was left raw. I got to have a couple hundred factory pictures the clearly show it.

camsaure
12-16-2017, 01:38 PM
Steve, I really enjoyed this thread, Great reference material also. Thank you! I would like to encourage everyone with pictures of unmolested bikes to post them also. Sure would like to see some pics of unmolested 25s or factory close ups. I hope this thread doesn't die and think it could be added as a "sticky" so it is easy for everyone to find in the future. With the absence of a good technical book this is quite useful, (at least until Mark Massa publishes a book :) I also would like to see the club magazine every month seek out some of these unmolested time capsules and do a good spread on them with plenty of color close ups. I certainly regret not taking detailed pictures of all the original condition bikes that I have seen over the last 50 years. Thanks again.

Steve Swan
12-16-2017, 05:25 PM
Steve, I really enjoyed this thread, Great reference material also. Thank you! I would like to encourage everyone with pictures of unmolested bikes to post them also. Sure would like to see some pics of unmolested 25s or factory close ups. I hope this thread doesn't die and think it could be added as a "sticky" so it is easy for everyone to find in the future. With the absence of a good technical book this is quite useful, (at least until Mark Massa publishes a book :) I also would like to see the club magazine every month seek out some of these unmolested time capsules and do a good spread on them with plenty of color close ups. I certainly regret not taking detailed pictures of all the original condition bikes that I have seen over the last 50 years. Thanks again.

Cam, looking at the battery box on this bike, the reinforcing strap goes around the upper 1/4th of the box, and the hinged lid latches, it's a 1925 model. it also appears to have the narrow fenders.


yeah..... hopefully this thread won't go into permanent hibernation. there's gotta be alot of great pics, private and factory out there. Other than the Rider's Handbook, a few brochures and ads, all related to the 27, i've posted everything i have.

if you click 3 times on the picture, it gets delightfully large. i can email it to you, if you'd like.

21330

Steve Swan
12-16-2017, 06:39 PM
The vin pad was left raw. I got to have a couple hundred factory pictures the clearly show it.

Thanks for confirming, Bob. i only have a couple pics, including one of my Dad with his 27, where the vin pad pad appears unpainted. I'll need to remove the paint on mine..

Rubone
01-10-2018, 12:15 AM
An old Newspaper advertisement a friend who was living in OZ found under some old linoleum during a kitchen remodel in the late '80s. She mailed it to me back then.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/T49yqn.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poT49yqnj)

Steve Slocombe
01-10-2018, 05:29 AM
That gives me another chance to ask Mark Masa where his JD book is today? My VL book is now in its sixth edition and 26th year continuously in print, and there were probably five or six times more Harley pocket valve bikes built than VLs. I've previously said that AMCA members should get together and knock out a chapter each of this much needed reference work, and been rebuffed. But none of us are getting younger and a somewhat rough first edition would be preferable to a polished edition in the indefinite future...

Steve Swan
01-10-2018, 09:16 AM
An old Newspaper advertisement a friend who was living in OZ found under some old linoleum during a kitchen remodel in the late '80s. She mailed it to me back then.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/T49yqn.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poT49yqnj)

thanks Robbie, for that great ad. i love how the additional brake is called a fore wheel brake.

Steve Swan
01-10-2018, 09:18 AM
That gives me another chance to ask Mark Masa where his JD book is today? My VL book is now in its sixth edition and 26th year continuously in print, and there were probably five or six times more Harley pocket valve bikes built than VLs. I've previously said that AMCA members should get together and knock out a chapter each of this much needed reference work, and been rebuffed. But none of us are getting younger and a somewhat rough first edition would be preferable to a polished edition in the indefinite future...

Ditto what Steve says !

TechNoir
01-10-2018, 01:59 PM
I would be happy to contribute what little I know.


John