PDA

View Full Version : Question on mounting clinchers HELP !



Steve Swan
03-15-2016, 11:09 PM
Here's pics of my wheels i got back from Buchanan's today.... beautiful !

But....... i am at a loss how the tires can easily go on the rims...... i have been reading everything i can find ! and saw the video, change clincher tire by hand with out tire irons."

all my research says these tires can be installed by hand, using no tools !!! REALLY ???

The rims are 20" from Al McRoberts in Michigan.

The tires are Coker 3.85x20

i have removed and installed MANY motorcycle tires, BUT THIS IS MY 1ST SET OF CLINCHERS, so i a m out of my "comfort zone." so i will just say flat out, i don't know what i am doing !

The tires seem to be a much small diameter than the rims, but the rims measure 20"

i also understand there are no cords in the beads of the clincher tires. BUT.... The amount the tire beads have to be stretched is ALOT !!!

i have a Coats Tire Changing machine, but i prefer to not use it if possible. i don't want to screw up my pretty new paint.

Will appreciate your thoughts and experience !

17106171071710817109

danf19
03-16-2016, 05:48 AM
Steve:
I asked a similar, but more general, question during the winter on this or the other forum. can't find it now but was given some very helpful responses and pictures.
However, I too , ended up using tire irons for clinchers,
Good luck,
Dan

exeric
03-16-2016, 08:48 AM
Steve, there is no easy way to put a clincher tire on a rim, but it will go on. I always do it outside, on a furniture blanket and give myself plenty of room.

I slightly trim a radius on the inside flaps of the tire to clear the valve stem.

I work one side of the tire on first, then insert a partially inflated inner tube. Get the valve stem through the rim hole and thread the stem nut on so you don't loose the stem during your battle with the tire.

I then work the other side of the tire into the rim. As I said, it is not going to be easy; in fact it's murder on your hands and you might even say a few dirty words like darn, or shucks.

The tire should be soft when you start this torture, and the sun does a good job on a black tire. I use a minimum of tire soap, and IF I use a tire tool, it is at the very end, and make sure it doesn't pinch the tube.

I wish there was some magic trick to put a clincher on a rim but there is only muscle, determination, and lots of swearing:)

Steve Swan
03-16-2016, 09:01 AM
Thanks Eric, for your thoughtful reply. i am giving this some thought before i bust out whatever from my arsenal of conventional tire changing tools as i don't want to f**k the paint on my rims (at least any more than i have to, hopefully not at all.) i have been searching the site (and others) for info.

i am really glad to see the process takes muscle, determination, and lots of swearing because i was concerned i had a wrong rim size but now i realize i am just another pilgrim in the clincher kingdom.

i was talking with my high school classmate, we grew up together and our conversation brought back memories of my dad telling me a story about changing tires on a clincher rim of his Model T, he said, "Getting the tire on that clincher rim was a real bear cat." So, Eric, you have backed that story up.

Anyway, i will look forward to anyone else who can share some wit and wisdom on this process before i "dig in." Looking at the rims and the tires, took away the desire of rushing in to the job.

btw, i am reading the Coker's wear out quickly.......... is this true ?

Steve Swan
03-16-2016, 09:16 AM
i've read mixed reports on which inner tube to use. i have heavy duty double thickness natural rubber 19" tubes i am planning to use. i have read some recommend 21' tubes...... ??

exeric
03-16-2016, 10:07 AM
The 19" tube will be fine and it sounds like a quality tube which is good insurance. Years ago, I posted something about mounting clinchers and I mentioned that I used tire irons for the last tuck. Our esteemed member Tommo read me the riot act as he said his Father would have fired anyone who couldn't put a clincher tire on a rim with his bare hands. His Dad was a H-D dealer in New Zealand going way back. Since then, I have taken Tommo's advice (taunt) and put them on by hand. However, I must confess that I have used a tire iron on occasion for that last tuck. When I have done that, I used a piece of heavy leather between the painted rim, and the iron.

The 21" tube is used on 28 x 3 clinchers.

exeric
03-16-2016, 10:20 AM
Oh yeah, in regards, to Coker life expectancy. They are a soft compound which makes them grippy on the road, and I prefer that. I had a pair of Cheng Shin tires on a knucklehead many years ago and they were a very hard compound. They were a good tire until they got wet; and then you got to test your "drifting" skills. Cokers will last long enough, but they are not a high quality tire. Their main assets are; authenticity, and safe for moderate riding. If you want to get on the interstate, put drop center rims, and modern tires on your bike.

gww
03-16-2016, 02:29 PM
new cokers are a bear. i believe stretching a nats azz over a rain barrel would be about the same. a few i have put on were so tight by the time i got them on that the tire folded its self, both side walls to the same side. i would have to remove them and do it again. lots of lube. and if you really want to add to the fun, try installing a tire lock opp. the valve stem. luck to ya. do you have touch up paint?

exeric
03-16-2016, 04:20 PM
I laughed out loud at that comparison Gary.

harleytoprock
03-16-2016, 09:03 PM
As Eric mentioned,get the tires hot by soaking them in the sun. If temps aren't hot at your location, I would wait till they are. I don't like to use any lube when mounting clincher tires because they can pop off the rim. Clinchers have no wire in the beads. It's not the greatest lube but I just use a little plain water. An old friend, the late Gene Baron, had made a tire stretcher to make tight fitting clinchers go on easier. He took an old rim, cut it in half, and welded the rim halves to an auto bumper jack. One half under the foot and the other on top of the bumper lifting bracket. With the tire in place he would pump up the jack. He rotated the tire in different positions and stretched several times. The rim halves were actually cut an inch short of being half. This made it easy to put the tire on and off with this stretcher.

Steve Swan
03-16-2016, 10:46 PM
Thanks for the great idea. I'm going to give this some thought and come up with something. I really like the idea of uniformly stretching the tire and using no lubricant.

Steve Swan
03-17-2016, 12:19 AM
ok. the thought of sumo wrestling these Coker's on my pretty rims makes me forfeit the match.

i bought a nice Sears Allstate 3-leg screw jack off ebay.... Once i get the jack, more to follow.

17111

MikeW
03-23-2016, 08:42 PM
Steve, I've been away for a week and have only just picked up this thread. For what it's worth, my experience was initially similar to yours. I am restoring a 21 J model twin and the wheels are made up of the original hubs, with Buchanan spokes and repro clincher rims. I sourced tyres and tubes from a local supplier (here in New Zealand) who specializes in vintage rubber. My choice was Ensign 28 x 3 tyres, made in the Far East mainly I think for the British vintage motorcycle market. They are a pretty good copy of the old Dunlop twin stud tread pattern.

When they arrived I was very concerned. They seemed to be about as pliable as wood, and had been squashed in transit, so they were only a couple of inches wide, if that. Also, because they were flattened, the beads had been pushed out from under the tyre towards the hub, which made it look as if they would never stretch over the rims. When I took my painted rims and hubs, and spokes, to the wheel builder, I took along one of the tyres and a spare tyreless wheel. His initial reaction also was that they wouldn't fit the 22 inch rim. But with my Ok he attempted to fit the tyre on the spare wheel. He succeeded by hand power alone, with a cold tyre, surprising both of us. (He is both younger and a lot stronger than me.)

I left the tyre on the old rim for a while to stretch and then took it off. I used a lever just once for the initial lift over the rim flange. I put the tubes in both tyres and partially inflated them, without putting them on a rim, and left them propped up in a warm spot in the shed. They started to resume a rounder shape.

When the laced wheels came back (items of beauty!) I used the plastic bag method, as per Youtube, to put the tyres and tubes on the rims. Otherwise the method was very like Eric's. I put an old piece of carpet on the outdoor BBQ table, and after cutting a radius in the tyre beads for the valve stem, left the tyres in the sun until they got pretty hot and soft. After putting the tubes in the tyres, and giving them a few psi to ensure that the tubes were not twisted, I fitted the valve stem in the rim, and then worked alternately down each side of the tyre from the valve (the top), using the heels of my hands to push the beads over the plastic bag and into the rim. No lubricant was required and the painted rims were unmarked. After pulling out the remnants of the bag, I put a few more psi in the tyres, and bounced them on the patio to seat the beads and ensure the tube was straight. There didn't seem to be any difference in ease of mounting with the tyre that had been on the old rim. I've put about 35 psi in them for the time being (more of course when the big day of the first ride arrives)and they fit very well on the rims, as in the photo.

I am still surprised at how straightforward it finally turned out to be. Yes it required some strength in the wrists and hands but I'm no Arnie. Like you I really thought initially that I had the wrong sized rims or tyres.

17130

Steve Swan
03-23-2016, 09:40 PM
Hi Mike !

Thank you for taking the time to share your experience. i just posted on another thread on this forum, from Joe Drociuk, tire and rim sizing info from the teens and 20's era. Considering all i've ever worked with is drop center setups, seeing these clinchers for the FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE WAS A SHOCK, i must to say. tires almost as hard as wood. AMEN. tires flat from probably being stacked 50 high. AMEN. reading all the information that's been shared with me, i am convinced it's only a matter of the first HOT day and having everything laid out on a moving blanket and some persistence and my tires will be mounted.

i DO have a spare bare rim, so i think i will probably mount a tire on that rim, if nothing else, for the sake of having the experience. enclosed is a pic of the one tire i have "zip tied" with the inner tube installed and inflated about 7 psi, just enough to increase the i.d. as much as it would increase with air pressure.

thanks again for your experience. i'll probably read your post 3 or 4 times just to get my head wrapped around the project.

Also, here is Joe Drociuk's post on early tire and rim sizing:

"The motorcycle clincher rims of the teens and twentys changed the way they were designated around 1925. In the teens and twenty's 22 inch rims had a 3 inch tire mounted and were called 28X3. That designation was the total diameter of the wheel. 22 inch rim plus 3 inch tires added twice totalled a wheel diameter of 28 inches. Thus, 28X3.

However, the manufacturers changed the designation when they came out with 18 and 20 inch rims. The 18 and 20 inch rim was the bare rim diamter less the clincher flange as you came up with in your 20 rim measurements. Then they added the 3.85" tire twice to the rim to a total wheel diameter of aprox 27.7 inch but that figure was no longer used to designate wheel size. They now designate the rim size (20)" in your case 20 X 3.85" tire diameter only, hence 20 X 3.85. No mention of total wheel diameter any longer. Drop center rims came in August 29 for Indian and Harley on 1930 models. Tires are still designated this way on drop center rims today, , example would be as in a VL and WLA , or Indian 400-18 of the thirtys on or the more modern newer FLH, H-Dav would be 500-16 or a car tire like 600-16, or 750-16...forget the metric . Also note that on clinchers, the clincher flange is not measured and it has no effect on wheel size, that also applys to drop center rims, that flange is also not in the measurement. it just holds the tire but only then if it has plenty of air in on clinchers or the clincher rim will throw the freakin tire off, happened to me a couple of times, not funny....Joe"

17131

gww
03-24-2016, 12:16 AM
hope you dont mind my getting in your questions/answers but i would like to know from folks that have actually lost a clincher as to why. the only one i lost was prob. my fault im thinking. as i did not check air pressure one time it happened. tube had the valve steam ripped off the tube. i assume pressure being low allowed the tire to slip on the rim and rip off the steam. have other folks seen this or is the steam still intact? after that ride to the ditch i drilled opposite the steams and installed tire locks. do still check psi before riding too. thanks. gary

Steve Swan
03-24-2016, 01:18 AM
hope you dont mind my getting in your questions/answers but i would like to know from folks that have actually lost a clincher as to why. the only one i lost was prob. my fault im thinking. as i did not check air pressure one time it happened. tube had the valve steam ripped off the tube. i assume pressure being low allowed the tire to slip on the rim and rip off the steam. have other folks seen this or is the steam still intact? after that ride to the ditch i drilled opposite the steams and installed tire locks. do still check psi before riding too. thanks. gary

Gary, i'm good for all the talk on this clincher topic as we can get.

What i have been hearing, tire air pressures should be checked EVERY ride, around 35 psi for 3.85x20.

harleytoprock
03-24-2016, 05:07 AM
I had a new clincher tire pop off as I was filling with air, after mounting. It was a frightening experience and I had nightmares thinking that a clincher could pop off when riding. So here's what I did to prevent clincher pop offs.
1. I used a wax and silicone remover solvent to wash off any mold release on the tire bead.
2. I scuffed the tire bead with 80 grit sand paper.
3. I sandblasted off the slippery shiny paint inside the rim clincher area. (this required some creative masking techniques to protect an assembled wheel)
4. I used no lube to mount the tires.
5. Initially ran with 45 psi for a coupe of hundred miles. I found the ride to be terrible with this high psi.
I'm down to 30 psi and now high speed handling is better and the ride is softer.

Probably, no one has done all this but I feel safer and sleep better.

exeric
03-24-2016, 06:46 PM
Steve, maybe you should consult this lady.

http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee341/cdo340/63c56d132855fba6485613a9b9cfb46b_zps4ygiomlv.jpg (http://s534.photobucket.com/user/cdo340/media/63c56d132855fba6485613a9b9cfb46b_zps4ygiomlv.jpg.h tml)

Steve Swan
03-24-2016, 09:27 PM
Wow.... she rocks ! She is a babe ! Hopefully I'll be at least half the man ! The only thing she's missing is a grin.....! btw, what a wonderful picture !

Steve Swan
03-24-2016, 10:40 PM
Wonder if she'd give me that tool kit ?

Steve Swan
03-25-2016, 11:43 AM
I had a new clincher tire pop off as I was filling with air, after mounting. It was a frightening experience and I had nightmares thinking that a clincher could pop off when riding. So here's what I did to prevent clincher pop offs.
1. I used a wax and silicone remover solvent to wash off any mold release on the tire bead.
2. I scuffed the tire bead with 80 grit sand paper.
3. I sandblasted off the slippery shiny paint inside the rim clincher area. (this required some creative masking techniques to protect an assembled wheel)
4. I used no lube to mount the tires.
5. Initially ran with 45 psi for a coupe of hundred miles. I found the ride to be terrible with this high psi.
I'm down to 30 psi and now high speed handling is better and the ride is softer.

Probably, no one has done all this but I feel safer and sleep better.

Where did you obtain "wax & silicone remover" ?

harleytoprock
03-25-2016, 12:21 PM
Any auto paint supplier will have wax and silicone remover. About $12. a quart.

Steve Swan
03-25-2016, 10:15 PM
Today is my first day of so called 'retirement' and yesterday was my last day of work after 43 years service in healthcare; amazing and actually pretty disgusting the past 4 years to be on the sheeit.end of the stick feeling the brunt of the corporatizing of health care. i've always worked in the trenches and with corporatization, we've experienced breath taking staff cuts while the corporation gives Peyton Manning $4mil to be spokesman for one year. his voice is in a barrage of ads on all the radio stations and his voice answers the phone when a customer calls and staff are too busy to be near the phone to answer it. It's being said in 50 years about 6 major corporations will own and operate all the healthcare providers in the country. healthcare delivery is being ravaged by corporate administrators interested only in the bottom line. All that being said, these 43 years have enriched my life immeasurably. around 30 of those 43 years have been in mental health and substance use. Happy retirement, Steve ! :cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:

i really appreciate all the posts i've got on the clincher rim topic. especially enjoyed the pic from Eric of the gal putting on tires on her bike around 1915 or so. looks like both front and rear wheels are off her bike. Would appreciate hearing comments on the white inner tube lying on the ground..... !? is her bike somewhere near the 1915 year ?

i've concluded Coker 3.85x20 tires are a different and perhaps less pliable compound than tires from the 20's era. if not a harder compound, then the Coker's are stiffer. oh well, it really does not matter.

Today, i took an old rusted cl.rim and cut the bead off one side of the rim. as "harleytoprock" mentioned the late Gene Baron making up a tire stretcher, my plan is to make up a similar tool using a screw jack to stretch the diameter of the tire enough to slip it over my restored wheels' rims. other than use a tire iron, i did not use or do anything special to get the tire on this modified rim. i was duly impressed how differently the clincher tire behaves during installation compared to a drop center tire going on it's rim. Without a doubt, the tire will go on a standard 20" rim, but not without at least toasting a few hours in the hot sunshine. i figure what the heck, if the tool doesn't do the trick, then i'll muscle 'em on with my getting old hands. Either way, i can't let my self be outdone by a girl who made it look relatively effortless over 100 years ago. here's a couple pics of the one tire on the modified rim. waiting for my jack to arrive in the mail. once i get the jack, more pics to follow. until then, i'm leaving the tire on the modified rim to help stretch it a bit

i am really impressed how very nice the 3.85x20 setup looks in contrast to the 4.00x19, side by side the 3.85x20 has very visibly larger diameter and narrower width. will definitely give it more of a bicycle look. i can hardly wait to get the wheels finished. Wednesday, this was my drive into work, 15" overnight. Tuesday, the high was 74 degrees. C'mon, sunshine !!!!!

17153171541715517161

tomfiii
03-26-2016, 11:42 AM
I've heard to put rim inside tire,then work beads over rim from both sides.

exeric
03-26-2016, 12:33 PM
Steve, thank you for your years of service in the healthcare field. People don't realize how vital doctors, nurses, and caregivers are until they need them.

MikeW
03-26-2016, 06:39 PM
Steve, thank you for your years of service in the healthcare field. People don't realize how vital doctors, nurses, and caregivers are until they need them.

Amen to that Eric.

frichie68
03-26-2016, 08:48 PM
^^And congrats on the retirement, you'll have more time now to spend with your toys, right?

Steve Swan
03-26-2016, 09:47 PM
Thank you, Gentleman ! one of the most amazing aspects of my life work has been, "i've never seen it all." just when i thought i did or had, the uniqueness of our humanity would reveal it's self in a way i had not seen or heard until that moment. With the utmost of dignity, grace and courage i've seen people rise to tragedy and challenges. and at other times marvel how someone could behave or have the perception they did and survive as long as they had.

and yes, more time to spend with the toys, but also to get out and experience more of the fullness and goodness of life.