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Shaky Jake
05-01-2014, 01:32 PM
Part 1:

I've been looking for a bike with cannonball potential, that I can afford, for I think about 3 years now. A few months ago this Kijiji ad showed up cross-posted on the AdvRider forum:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-W9j3B9x/0/XL/5-1-2014%2010-06-10%20AM%20%5B1%5D-XL.jpg

I swapped a few emails with the guy (you-all know him as c.o. or Cory). He sent me a bunch of pictures, and we settled on a price. I told him I wouldn't be able to pick it up for a month or so because of work, he said no problem, and he didn't even want a deposit to hold it. My kind of guy. I finally got a week off, a hard thing to do during the spring outage season, so I hitch the trailer up to Clifford the Big Red Dodge, called my side-kick Paul (local Pawn Shop Owner/Operator) to help with the driving, and headed north. Cory lives in British Columbia and I live in Nebraska, so we're about 1500 miles apart, for a 3,000 mile round trip. Oh well, at least I would get to visit my daughter in Fargo/Moorhead.

My biggest worry was bringing it back across the border in to the USA. I did some internet research and found that a vehicle that is at least 21 years old doesn't have to meet the EPA requirements, and if it's at least 25 years old it doesn't have to meet the DOT requirements. No problem, this one's 98 years old. Here's a good link: https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/278/~/importing-classic-or-antique-vehicles-%2F-cars-for-personal-use

The one potential problem was that everything I read said that I had to have proof of ownership in the form of a title and registration, and the old injun had neither. I decided that I needed to talk to a real live person, so I started calling border stations. We all know how hard it is to get a real person when calling a government phone number, but persistence pays off and I managed to get through to Border Officer at two stations, the big one at Roosville, Montana, and a tiny one at Whitlash, Montana. The nice lady at Whitlash was very helpful, she said that a bill of sale should be fine if there's no title, and she explained that I might have to fill out some DOT and EPA forms but it shouldn't be a problem because the bike is so old. Cool. Just what I wanted to hear. The she said "but you're not crossing here are you?" I said that yes, I probably would. She said "oh, I don't think you want to cross here, we're way out on a gravel road!" I said that's no problem, I live on a gravel road. "Yes, but we're a long way from anything. You'll want to cross at one of the big border stations at Roosville or Sweetwater, so you should call them too." OK, well, crossing at Roosville would save me some time, so I called them up, and battled my way through the phone menus again.The kid at Roosville really didn't want to talk to me, wouldn't give me a straight answer, and was rude and evasive in the typical fashion of his generation. He said I would need proof of ownership and he didn't think a bill of sale would qualify. Fine. Thanks for your time. I decided to cross at Whitalsh no matter how long it took.

So Paul and I set out in Clifford the Big Red Dodge. We spent a night with my daughter and her husband and the next night in a run-down (cheap) motel in Havre, MT. On the way to Havre, Clifford rolled over 250,000 miles, so it is officially broken in:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-t6xnzBr/0/L/P4160008-L.jpg

I think Paul was a little surprised that I picked that little roach mote in Havre, but I don't like to spend too much money just for a place to sleep. When the wife is along it's a different story, off course. Here's a picture of Paul pointing out that the broken shutters had been repaired with toilet paper:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-ck3JpRp/0/XL/Photo%20Apr%2016%2C%2012%2004%2051%20AM-XL.jpg

It didn't bother me a bit. By the way, Havre has an interesting network of tunnels under it that the bootleggers built during the prohibition. You can get a tour.

We decided to cross into Canada at the Widhorse Station, since it's on a paved road and has such a cool name. We got up early and were second in line for the Wildhorse crossing before they opened:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-vwSwNTB/0/L/P4160002-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-bVZ69Xw/0/L/P4160004-L.jpg

And then we were in Canada.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-LpPCCBG/0/L/P4160005-L.jpg

More to come in Part 2. Be patient, I will include the build in this thread.

Shaky Jake
05-01-2014, 01:34 PM
Part 2:

Paul had never been to Banff, so we went up around and over the mountains. We ran into a little of this:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-mZ2qGmh/0/L/IMG_20140416_153248_507-L.jpg

but nothing too serious. It made for fabulous scenery:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-4HW8SX4/0/L/P4160015-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-g7kNTHq/0/L/P4160009-L.jpg

And then there we were:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-RdjwSKm/0/L/P4160018-L.jpg

So the only thing left to do was do the deal (Cory on the left, yours-truly on the right):

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-5knXZxT/0/L/P4160020-L.jpg

drink a toast:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-SSvZkPr/0/L/P4160019-L.jpg

and load up:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-h7t83cD/0/L/Photo%20Apr%2016%2C%208%2020%2058%20PM-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-vxpXn8h/0/L/P4160021-L.jpg

The engine is in baskets, I mean boxes, in the back of the cab, where it will be more secure.

More to come in Part 3.

sirhrmechanic
05-01-2014, 01:42 PM
Love the pictures.

And the sign "Trespassers will be violated."

Mine says "If you can read this, you're range."* I need another sign below that which says "Actually, he is better than that."

Cheers and thanks for posting. This thread made my day!

Cheers,

Sirhr

* Pisten-bully can confirm this... as can DanM.

Shaky Jake
05-01-2014, 01:52 PM
So it was off to Whitlash, to bring the old gal into the US of A. I was pretty sure that they were going to ask me why I drove past the two largest border crossings between Canada and Montana, to go to the second smallest border crossing between Canada and Montana. My plan was to tell them the truth; that it was because of the nice lady on the phone. Here is a picture of the Whitlash Port of Entry:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-QsdsTW8/0/XL/IMG_20140417_141919_941-XL.jpg

The lady was right, it was way out on a gravel road. According to the internet, less than three people a day cross at Whitlash. I think we may have woke the guy up, because it took him a while to respond after I pushed the button. He listened to my story and, as I predicted, asked me why I came to Whitlash rather than Roosville or Sweetwater. I told him about the nice lady at Whitlash and the rude kid at Roosville. He must know that nice lady because he believed me. He looked our stuff over, chatted with us a while, and sent us on our way. Nice guy. All told, it only took about 20 minutes.

The gravel road got worse on the US side. It took us over two hours to go 60 miles. The route was not well marked, and even the GPS lady in my phone got confused a couple of times. Here is my favorite sign:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-ppdMDNB/0/XL/IMG_20140417_143840_346-XL.jpg

On the way home we almost lost the top of the trailer in some 60 mph crosswinds across Montana. Luckily my son-in-law had some plywood and screws and we were able to make repairs at their house:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-ZHKNz7S/0/L/Photo%20Apr%2019%2C%2010%2035%2026%20AM%20%28HDR%2 9-L.jpg

We topped it off that night with Moscow Mules with my daughter and son-in-law:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-SPkXNPG/0/L/IMG_20140418_222007_935-L.jpg

and were home the next day.

My plan now is to repair this bike into a cannonball machine. I want have it ready for 2016 when it is 100 years old. I'll continue to document the build on this thread, that's why I started this thread in the "Member Bike Builds" category. I hope that's OK.

I've been working on motorcycles since 1970, when I was 11 years old, but the oldest one up to now has been (only) 50 years old, so this is going to be a challenge for me. It won't be a restoration, more of a repair. I do need some parts, the most significant of them being a transmission. If you have any leads you can be my best friend.

Please, speak up if you have any comments, suggestions, criticisms, or help to offer. I welcome and appreciate it.

I travel for a living but I have summers off, and usually the winter off too. I won't get a good start on this until the spring outage season ends in early June. And I have an old Triumph to finish up and get off of the rack so I can put the Indian up on it.

More to come.

Thanks for your time.

Shaky Jake
05-01-2014, 01:55 PM
Love the pictures.

And the sign "Trespassers will be violated."

...

Yes - I was glad we glad we called ahead.

BTW - One of the best parts is that I made a new friend in Canada!

sirhrmechanic
05-01-2014, 04:44 PM
That's one of the things I loved about your travelogue... because I made a similar trip in to northern Canada (up on the shores of Lake Huron)... in December 2010 or so... to buy my Knuck. 2 days of driving each way into some horrible snow squalls. But the result was my dream EL and meeting a guy who is still a friend and whose bike (he owned it for some 40 years) I treasure.

My experience at customs was similar. I'd called in advance and other than the customs guys all wanting to ride it and joking that they needed to impound it until Spring so they could check out its road-worthiness... Customs was a walk. If it's made in USA... it comes back to USA no charge.

So your posts were not only fun to read, but brought back good memories. Again, thanks!

Cheers and look forward to your build.

Sirhr

panthersteve
05-01-2014, 05:30 PM
The project for sale in this ad http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bboard/showthread.php?22768-1914-Indian-Project has a gearbox but the bike shouldn't have one. While it is now sold it might pay you to follow up on it, maybe the new owner will go original and will then have a gearbox to spare. :)

Cheers
Steve

Shaky Jake
05-01-2014, 06:06 PM
The project for sale in this ad http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bboard/showthread.php?22768-1914-Indian-Project has a gearbox but the bike shouldn't have one. While it is now sold it might pay you to follow up on it, maybe the new owner will go original and will then have a gearbox to spare. :)

Cheers
Steve

Thanks for the tip Steve. I PM'd the seller, we'll see what happens.

painterdale
05-01-2014, 08:57 PM
Great story! Dale

c.o.
05-01-2014, 09:24 PM
That turned out to be a pretty darn good story there Shaky! It was a pleasure meeting you and Paul and I hope to cross paths again sometime. I'm also going to be paying close attention to your build. I know you're going to do a good job.

Chuck#1848
05-02-2014, 05:51 PM
That turned out to be a pretty darn good story there Shaky! It was a pleasure meeting you and Paul and I hope to cross paths again sometime. I'm also going to be paying close attention to your build. I know you're going to do a good job.

Looking forward to the build there Shaky Jake also welcome to the world of sidecars.........And Cory, it's good to put a face to the name, I trust you are not liquidating all of your hacks? still have the Pan/ HD sidecar.

sirhrmechanic
05-02-2014, 06:19 PM
And Cory, it's good to put a face to the name...

Chuck... not sure I could exactly put a, well, face with a name... Could Cory have been an extra in my favorite movie... Life of Brian...?

http://i1005.photobucket.com/albums/af177/sirhrmechanic/cory_zps4a617722.png

Just 'sayin...

Cheers,

Sirhr

sirhrmechanic
05-02-2014, 06:21 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDe9msExUK8

Cheers,

Sirhr

(Sorry Cory... could not resist)

Shaky Jake
05-03-2014, 08:03 AM
That turned out to be a pretty darn good story there Shaky! It was a pleasure meeting you and Paul and I hope to cross paths again sometime. I'm also going to be paying close attention to your build. I know you're going to do a good job.

It was a pleasure to meet you as well, Cory. I think I detect a little beardage envy in the crowd, eh?
Here is a list of events that I am planning on this summer, if you make it to any of them knock on the door of the black Work-N-Play camper and I promise I'll have a beer.

National MC Museum, Anamosa IA, June 7 & 8
Viking Chapter Nat'l Meet, St. Paul MN, June 13 - 15
AMA Vintage MC Days, Lexington OH, July 11 - 13
AMCA Wauseon Nat'l Meet, Wauseon OH, July 18 - 20
Chief Blackhawk Int'l Meet, Davenport IA, August 28 - 30
And in the fall, if I can get off work, Barber Vintage Festival, October 10 - 12, Birmingham AL

Am I missing any?

Kevin

Shaky Jake
05-03-2014, 08:04 AM
Looking forward to the build there Shaky Jake also welcome to the world of sidecars..........

Thanks Chuck. It was a sidecar thread on Advrider where I first saw Cory's ad.

Kevin

Shaky Jake
05-03-2014, 08:09 AM
That's one of the things I loved about your travelogue... because I made a similar trip in to northern Canada (up on the shores of Lake Huron)... in December 2010 or so... to buy my Knuck. 2 days of driving each way into some horrible snow squalls. But the result was my dream EL and meeting a guy who is still a friend and whose bike (he owned it for some 40 years) I treasure.

My experience at customs was similar. I'd called in advance and other than the customs guys all wanting to ride it and joking that they needed to impound it until Spring so they could check out its road-worthiness... Customs was a walk. If it's made in USA... it comes back to USA no charge.

So your posts were not only fun to read, but brought back good memories. Again, thanks!

Cheers and look forward to your build.

Sirhr

Glad you enjoyed the posts. I may have worried too much about the border crossing. I've crossed quite a few, and it all comes down to who's guarding the gate when you get there, and which side of the bed they got up on that morning. Usually it goes pretty smooth, but I could tell you some stories.

frichie68
05-03-2014, 08:44 AM
Good thread, cool story, great photos!

c.o.
05-03-2014, 01:34 PM
QUOTE=Chuck#1848;140135] I trust you are not liquidating all of your hacks? still have the Pan/ HD sidecar.[/QUOTE]

The Pan and the LE are still here. No plans at this point for that to change.





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDe9msExUK8

Cheers,

Sirhr

(Sorry Cory... could not resist)

"Now look, no one is to stone anyone until I blow this whistle! Do you understand? " You did what you had to do Sirhr, resisting was futile.....:D




It was a pleasure to meet you as well, Cory. I think I detect a little beardage envy in the crowd, eh?
Here is a list of events that I am planning on this summer, if you make it to any of them knock on the door of the black Work-N-Play camper and I promise I'll have a beer.

National MC Museum, Anamosa IA, June 7 & 8
Viking Chapter Nat'l Meet, St. Paul MN, June 13 - 15
AMA Vintage MC Days, Lexington OH, July 11 - 13
AMCA Wauseon Nat'l Meet, Wauseon OH, July 18 - 20
Chief Blackhawk Int'l Meet, Davenport IA, August 28 - 30
And in the fall, if I can get off work, Barber Vintage Festival, October 10 - 12, Birmingham AL

Am I missing any?

Kevin

Looks like you forgot Dixon.....:D That's a pretty impressive line up nonetheless! I don't know if I'll make it south this year, but if I do, I'll be watchin' for ya!

"Beardage envy".... that's a good one. I don't know though.... in the last two weeks I've had two different people ask me if I was trying to look like the Duck Dynasty guys. The beard may have to go. It's more of a winter thing anyway.

Shaky Jake
05-05-2014, 09:00 AM
Looks like you forgot Dixon.....:D That's a pretty impressive line up nonetheless! I don't know if I'll make it south this year, but if I do, I'll be watchin' for ya!

"Beardage envy".... that's a good one. I don't know though.... in the last two weeks I've had two different people ask me if I was trying to look like the Duck Dynasty guys. The beard may have to go. It's more of a winter thing anyway.


Dixon would be a three day drive for me. Maybe it's worth it though?

I hear that chicks dig Duck Dynasty... besides, is summer in BC even worth shaving for? Maybe if it falls on a weekend... :)

c.o.
05-05-2014, 08:43 PM
Dixon would be a three day drive for me. Maybe it's worth it though?

I hear that chicks dig Duck Dynasty... besides, is summer in BC even worth shaving for? Maybe if it falls on a weekend... :)

July gets pretty hot..........:D

Shaky Jake
05-09-2014, 10:06 AM
I haven't had a chance to start work on the Indian yet, but I thought I'd throw up a few pictures of the bike as I got it, for your viewing pleasure.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/1916-Indian-Powerplus/i-H6fH9qg/0/L/IMG_2719-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/1916-Indian-Powerplus/i-Pqjj4Lm/0/L/IMG_2720-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/1916-Indian-Powerplus/i-k4qNpwP/0/L/IMG_2721-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/1916-Indian-Powerplus/i-qSChCwK/0/L/IMG_2727-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/1916-Indian-Powerplus/i-ZwzzbLv/0/L/IMG_2724-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/1916-Indian-Powerplus/i-F5N3dzH/0/L/IMG_2725-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/1916-Indian-Powerplus/i-pNFMNS8/0/L/IMG_2728-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/1916-Indian-Powerplus/i-jWvfJ93/0/L/IMG_2729-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/1916-Indian-Powerplus/i-HRSKWsh/0/L/IMG_2731-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/1916-Indian-Powerplus/i-vQWFCBS/0/L/IMG_2732-L.jpg

More to come...

Kevin

sirhrmechanic
05-09-2014, 11:04 AM
Jake: I wouldn't have driven to Northern Canada for that... I'd have driven to Siberia, Ulan Bator or off the edge of the earth for that!!! What a great project and I bet you do C.O. proud. I have a lead on a PP (1917)... but don't know if it will pan out. And I don't need more projects. Maybe I can live vicariously through your restoration... if you post enough pictures. Thanks for sharing!

Cheers,

Sirhr

Shaky Jake
05-10-2014, 11:20 AM
These are some of the pictures that Cory took as he disassembled the engine, which is my starting point.



http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/1916-Indian-Engine-Disassembly/i-DCJGBkz/0/L/IMG_2167-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/1916-Indian-Engine-Disassembly/i-wcgrjZF/0/L/IMG_2179-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/1916-Indian-Engine-Disassembly/i-WcxpvQ2/0/L/IMG_2186-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/1916-Indian-Engine-Disassembly/i-pKbGzmG/0/L/IMG_2187-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/1916-Indian-Engine-Disassembly/i-JSpss4x/0/L/IMG_2192-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/1916-Indian-Engine-Disassembly/i-J4WHBxT/0/L/IMG_2193-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/1916-Indian-Engine-Disassembly/i-NzT3kKP/0/L/IMG_2203-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/1916-Indian-Powerplus/i-66t8BmT/0/L/IMG_2740-L.jpg



Stay tuned, more to come....

Kevin

Shaky Jake
05-12-2014, 12:07 PM
Again, pictures as I got it - for your viewing pleasure. Some of these have been posted on the site before, on a different thread. I wanted to post them on this thread as sort of a starting point

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/1916-Indian-Powerplus/i-4WgxdC3/0/L/IMG_2722-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/1916-Indian-Powerplus/i-J4hTjRs/0/L/IMG_2723-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/1916-Indian-Powerplus/i-QbbxbWX/0/L/IMG_2734-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/1916-Indian-Powerplus/i-2HZXx8F/0/L/IMG_2735-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/1916-Indian-Powerplus/i-8Kp5Mv6/0/L/IMG_2738-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/1916-Indian-Powerplus/i-s6xbgkR/0/L/IMG_2739-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/1916-Indian-Powerplus/i-pSQk8pK/0/L/IMG_2737-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/1916-Indian-Powerplus/i-SKPGc4J/0/L/IMG_2736-L.jpg


I can't wait to get back from NC, finish the Trumpet, and start on the Injun.

Kevin

Shaky Jake
07-04-2014, 11:43 PM
Happy Independence Day.

The '64 ISDT Tribute is off the rack and on the road:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/1964-McQueen-ISDT-Triumph/i-DZKMSjg/0/L/2014-07-04%2017.18.19-L.jpg



And the '16 Indian is on the rack:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-GMCcD7k/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.34.38-L.jpg



And I had a nice phone conversation with Ziggy in Ontario today, about linkages and stuff. I'm looking forward to meeting him at Wauseon.


I'll post some detailed pictures soon.


Kevin.

.

gww
07-05-2014, 10:30 AM
sure looks like a great bike. thanks for sharing. gw

Shaky Jake
07-05-2014, 12:26 PM
Here's a picture of the other side.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-8Jpqdhh/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.35.13-L.jpg



The effort so far has been finding the major parts that I'm missing. I found a transmission and a clutch, or at least most of a clutch.

Now I'm looking over the handlebar and making a list of stuff I need. I have a handle bar. The right side (magneto) twist grip and associated flexible link are missing:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-n8JQmPw/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.44.25-L.jpg


The left side (throttle) twist grip is there:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-pqKSk26/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.44.12-L.jpg



As is the left side flexible link through the handle bar:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-73RHtbZ/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.43.08-L.jpg


Those handlebar control parts will probably be replaced with new reproduction stuff, since they tend to wear out and I intend to ride this bike.



I'm missing the mag control lever and mag control frame stud on the right side of the steering neck:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-2Ws8V7R/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.36.16-L.jpg



And I'm missing the throttle control lever on the left side of the steering neck, but I do have the throttle control frame stud:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-Qk2kfzs/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.36.35-L.jpg

Of course, I also need the rods and clevises that go from the handle bar flexible shafts to the control levers on the neck.



The next pivot point is on the front downtube, in front of the engine. A rod, which I don't have, goes from the lever on the right side of the steering neck to the lever on the right side of the downtube. The lever on the right side of the down tube is clamped to the shaft that goes through the frame lug, and there should be another lever clamped to the shaft on the left side that then connects to another rod (also missing) that goes down to the magneto. This picture shows the frame lug and the right side lever that is clamped to the shaft:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-hg32DPh/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.37.50-L.jpg



On the left side of the down tube there is a lever that pivot's free on the shaft. I need the rod & clevises that go from the lever on the left side of the steering neck to this lever, and then from this lever to the carburetor:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-NktmGp6/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.37.17-L.jpg


It sounds like Ziggy can fix me up with replacements for most of these missing and worn out control parts, so I will be seeking him out at Wauseon, vendor location 391. The one exception might be the rod that goes to the Schebler carb, but he thought he could get me enough info that I could make one.


Stay tuned - more to come. I'm being called to lunch.


Kevin.

.

Shaky Jake
07-05-2014, 10:07 PM
The entire brake assembly seems to be missing:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-vtgwDJk/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.38.17-L.jpg



Does anyone know what this little lug on the swingarm is for?

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-JRJVsVR/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.40.38-L.jpg


There's one on the drive side too, but it's missing it's little cap:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-f9Hs97q/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.40.47-L.jpg



The final drive chain and sprocket actually look like they could be saved. It has that skip link chain though, and all of the drive sprockets I've seen (in the short time that I've been looking) are not skip link. Does anybody know what the original configuration was?

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-vPjFwLR/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.40.57-L.jpg



I'll probably replace the tires:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-sKrn88Q/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.42.47-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-d6zHVsz/0/L/2014-07-05%2009.31.13-L.jpg



Everything seems to be in order with the front wheel, other than a few bent and broken spokes.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-hTBjB9p/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.45.44-L.jpg



I have a spare rear wheel too. Someone attached solid rubber to it in place of the pneumatic tire. You gotta love the spoke repairs:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-VwwWCVW/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.51.48-L.jpg







Kevin

.

painterdale
07-06-2014, 07:48 PM
Hey, Kevin! Good to see you sinking your teeth into this. Looking good! Those lugs on the swingarm are stops for the rear stand. The stand has arms that stick out from it and butt up against these. Hope this helps. I have an unrestored '17. A lot is different but some things are the same. I can help with photos of anything if you need. Dale

Shaky Jake
07-07-2014, 09:17 AM
Thanks Dale. I'll probably take you up on that.

They have a restored '17 Powerplus in the museum in Anamosa, IA that I've taken some pictures of, to help me sort this thing out. They also have a '13 twin, a '14 Hendee Special, and a '15 C-3 Big Twin. Their '17 doesn't have those lugs on the swingarm, is that how yours is? Here's a picture:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Anamosa-IA-Museum/i-nFqHHVs/0/L/2014-06-07%2009.19.06-L.jpg

Thanks,

Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
07-07-2014, 05:13 PM
The gas tank looks pretty good, other than the paint of course. Someone repainted the whole thing at some point, probably with good old lead barn paint. There are glimpses of what appears to be original paint in a few places, but I think it's mostly gone. In this first shot you can see that one of the threaded mounting holes is pulled out, and the seam just to the right of that hole is split and will need to be re-soldered.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-Zw7VSw5/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.42.05-L.jpg



Here is the other side. The priming injector and shut off valve are there. I'll need mounting straps and I only have one mounting screw, not sure if it's original.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-RJVsdmV/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.42.20-L.jpg



Here's a close-up of the split seam:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-bBz5rdr/0/L/2014-07-05%2009.15.41-L.jpg



The front fender does not have the skirts on the sides of it. The 1916 Indian Parts Catalog shows the front fender as skirted, all one item. I'm not sure if it they were originally stamped out of one piece of steel, or made from three pieces. Any insights on this would be appreciated. My fender looks very much like the fender on the 1913 Indian Twin in the Anamosa, IA Museum. I'm not sure if my fender has been modified, or replaced with an earlier fender, or if they installed an earlier fender right out of the factory due to a special request or something. I may never know. Here's a pic:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-sKrn88Q/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.42.47-L.jpg



Here's what a 98 year old leather mudflap looks like. I think I can save it.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-LS7dGXs/0/L/2014-07-05%2009.31.26-L.jpg



The rear fender appears serviceable.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-6Z5vhcq/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.41.57-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-d6zHVsz/0/L/2014-07-05%2009.31.13-L.jpg



Kevin

.

painterdale
07-07-2014, 09:27 PM
Kevin, my rear stand set up is like the picture you have of the '17. In '17 the rear stand was changed and doesn't have the arms on it anymore, so the lugs are not needed. My bike was lacking the stand when I got it and as yet haven't located an original but was able to score a repro to hold the bike up in the meantime. Dale

Shaky Jake
07-08-2014, 01:05 AM
Thanks Dale.

Tom Lovejoy
07-09-2014, 01:01 AM
Very cool Kevin, keep it coming - fun stuff watching. I have a 14 twin project, I hope to start on maybe by the end of the year. Very cool machine you have there.

Shaky Jake
07-09-2014, 01:05 AM
Very cool Kevin, keep it coming - fun stuff watching. I have a 14 twin project, I hope to start on maybe by the end of the year. Very cool machine you have there.

Thanks Tom.

Pictures of your '14 would be cool.

Kevin

.

Tom Lovejoy
07-12-2014, 01:28 AM
1359413595Here's mine, really more of a bit's of 14 :-) That's my Dad on it after I quickly assembled the parts, just to make it look like a motocycle :-) He was always a good sport, what ever I brought home. Engine and trans are now rebuilt, I have a later 3 speed in it.

Shaky Jake
07-12-2014, 09:12 AM
Nice bike Tom. It looks good in front of the Model T.

Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
07-16-2014, 02:33 PM
After looking at the pictures of Tom's 1914, and scouring the internet for pictures, I've begun to wonder if my frame and chassis are from an earlier model, for three reasons; 1 - the front fender that is on it appears to be 1914 or earlier, 2 - the rear stand stops on the swing-arm appear to be like a 1914 or earlier bike, and 3 - the skip-tooth chain and rear sprocket don't appear to be correct for a 1916 Powerplus.

The engine is clearly 1916 Powerplus, based on the number. I don't know if a 1916 engine will fit in an earlier frame. A lot can happen in 98 years.

Anyone who feels they can add something to this discussion, please do so. It just gets curiouser and curiouser!

Cheers!

Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
07-23-2014, 04:30 PM
I'm back from Mid-Ohio and Wauseon. Could not have asked for better weather. My mission was to A. Find old Indian parts, and 2. Relax. There weren't many old Indian parts at Mid-Ohio, but it was great for relaxing. I got to camp out:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycle-Rally/2014-07-AMA-Mid-Ohio/i-4BhLNDc/0/L/2014-07-10%2011.48.06%20%282%29-L.jpg


Drink brewed beverages with interesting people:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycle-Rally/2014-07-AMA-Mid-Ohio/i-NZNDzXB/0/L/2014-07-10%2012.58.42-L.jpg


And ride my motorsickle:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycle-Rally/2014-07-AMA-Mid-Ohio/i-GVGgf6m/0/L/2014-07-10%2013.34.00-L.jpg


...with my GPS:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycle-Rally/2014-07-AMA-Mid-Ohio/i-PGFV6Zw/0/L/2014-07-15%2015.15.27-L.jpg


There were also some great old bikes there. Here are just a few:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycle-Rally/2014-07-AMA-Mid-Ohio/i-hfpm6h9/0/L/2014-07-12%2012.49.38-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycle-Rally/2014-07-AMA-Mid-Ohio/i-5pFk65C/0/L/2014-07-11%2015.52.04-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycle-Rally/2014-07-AMA-Mid-Ohio/i-zHqqG8R/0/L/2014-07-11%2018.08.47-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycle-Rally/2014-07-AMA-Mid-Ohio/i-WB9DkzC/0/L/2014-07-12%2012.48.29-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycle-Rally/2014-07-AMA-Mid-Ohio/i-X7NJss5/0/L/2014-07-12%2012.47.56-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycle-Rally/2014-07-AMA-Mid-Ohio/i-BqxWkrH/0/L/2014-07-12%2013.00.45-L.jpg




Coming up next - Wauseon.

Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
07-23-2014, 05:30 PM
As expected, Wauseon was better for finding Indian parts, old and repop. And again, the weather was great. I got most of the parts I need for the hand brake and foot brake (I had none of the brake parts, not even the hub or drum) and nearly all of the parts I needed for the handlebar controls. I found most of the parts I need for the clutch pedal and hand clutch controls. I found a spare carb, a kick-start arm, a spare slider gear for the transmission, chain guards, and a few other things. The biggest benefit though, was all the information I got from the people I talked to that know a lot more about these bikes than I do.

I talked to several people in-the-know about my question about the early fender, early rear stand stops, and skip link chain on my bike. The general consensus seemed to be that the front fender was probably changed at some point, the rear chain and sprocket was certainly changed at some point, and the style of rear stand stops that my bike has were still being used into 1916, even though that's not how the brochure shows them. The factory probably used them until they were used up. And a lot can happen in 100 years.

I got to watch old motorcycles race:


http://youtu.be/DBHy5_UI-wc


http://youtu.be/HolqJI2AGXw


Here are a couple of the bikes that were out there on the track:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycle-Rally/2014-07-AMCA-Wauseon/i-9b79Npp/0/L/2014-07-17%2014.35.56-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycle-Rally/2014-07-AMCA-Wauseon/i-qndw2X4/0/L/2014-07-19%2009.57.07-L.jpg


And get this, Jay Springsteen and Joe Roeder did some exhibition laps:


http://youtu.be/OKetgG0NTzo


As usual, there was lots of old iron at the meet, and also as usual I didn't do a very good job of getting pictures. But here are a few:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycle-Rally/2014-07-AMCA-Wauseon/i-hJF4dgP/0/L/2014-07-17%2016.01.56-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycle-Rally/2014-07-AMCA-Wauseon/i-vLX5SnF/0/L/2014-07-17%2019.02.48-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycle-Rally/2014-07-AMCA-Wauseon/i-C7fZkMN/0/L/2014-07-18%2014.25.29-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycle-Rally/2014-07-AMCA-Wauseon/i-fQKDxZt/0/L/2014-07-19%2009.50.14-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycle-Rally/2014-07-AMCA-Wauseon/i-PcxNBcJ/0/L/2014-07-19%2011.59.02-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycle-Rally/2014-07-AMCA-Wauseon/i-32cc6J9/0/L/2014-07-19%2011.59.07-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycle-Rally/2014-07-AMCA-Wauseon/i-5hBq2hz/0/L/2014-07-19%2011.59.20-L.jpg



Next, removing fossilized tires, and WTF did they do to my rear hub?


Kevin

.

sirhrmechanic
07-23-2014, 05:40 PM
Great pix!

Loved the WLA... and the diversity of cool stuff.

Cheers,

Sirhr

Shaky Jake
07-23-2014, 05:55 PM
It looks like a WLA... doesn't it.

Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
07-23-2014, 10:44 PM
I almost forgot to mention; the strippers at Mid-Ohio were really cheap:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycle-Rally/2014-07-AMA-Mid-Ohio/i-9tr4kwT/0/L/2014-07-11%2016.26.26-L.jpg


Kevin

.

Rubone
07-23-2014, 11:17 PM
Great pix!

Loved the WLA... and the diversity of cool stuff.

Cheers,

Sirhr

WLA??????????

Tom Lovejoy
07-24-2014, 12:25 AM
very cool, thanks for posting. I would love to go see those races some day.

Shaky Jake
08-07-2014, 11:58 AM
I want to get two wheels put together so I can roll the bike into my trailer to take it to Davenport with me for Labor Day weekend. The first step is to get the old wheels off, take them apart, and see what parts I'm going to need. The tires were so fossilized that I couldn't even get the front wheel off because the tire wouldn't clear the forks. Out came the tin snips. It's funny, I felt a little sad and queasy taking the snips to those tires that are probably older than me (and I'm pretty old). It had to be done though.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-tbbJ8km/0/L/2014-07-22%2019.58.16%20%282%29-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-684CNwW/0/L/2014-07-22%2019.58.26%20%282%29-L.jpg





The spokes on the front wheel are actually pretty good, other than some surface rust, and there's only one spoke missing:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-wsb5fS9/0/L/2014-07-22%2020.11.01%20%282%29-L.jpg




The bearing cups in the hub have some pits. They would work for a while, but not from coast to coast:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-DKBgRJv/0/L/2014-07-22%2020.10.50%20%282%29-L.jpg




The hollow axle is in good shape. It has caged bearings, which look to be in pretty good shape. One of the bearing cones is in really good shape, the other one has some pitting:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-NLTjdZ2/0/L/2014-07-22%2020.11.10%20%282%29-L.jpg




Here's the good cone after cleaning:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-wBFGqBX/0/L/2014-08-07%2010.26.13-L.jpg




And here's the pitted one. It looks worse in the picture than in real life:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-bSFXVcV/0/L/2014-08-07%2010.26.33-L.jpg




The center axle is fubar. Someone has re-tapped the threads, which I believe should be 3/8 - 24, with coarse threads:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-Thqfdhm/0/L/2014-07-22%2020.11.39%20%282%29-L.jpg





The rim itself looks pretty rusty, but the wastage isn't that bad and I think it can be saved:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-sGJF8KD/0/L/2014-07-22%2020.22.25%20%282%29-L.jpg




So I've contacted a couple of vendors about front wheel hub bearing cups, bearing cones, and a center axle, and I'm waiting to hear back from them. I know that I can get new ball bearings. I've also ordered material to make a center axle if I need to.

These are my thoughts on the original front wheel; If I can't get new cups and cones, I'll probably clean the old ones up, grease them up good, and assemble them. I'll de-rust the rim, replace the missing spoke, adjust the spokes, put a tire on it, and call it good. It will be the spare wheel for the Cannonball, and it will be my normal original wheel after the Cannonball. The thing is, the Cannonball goes through some high traffic areas, which is a condition that bikes were not designed for in 1916. So you need a wheel with front brake, and one can be installed without modifying the fork or the rest of the bike in any way. Here is a link: http://occhiolungo.wordpress.com/2010/09/06/how-to-front-brakes-for-an-early-bike/

If anyone has any Indian front wheel cups or cones, I would be interested. I'm also looking for a drum brake wheel from a ~1970's dirt bike, with a 21 inch aluminum rim. It has to be less than 3 inches wide at the axle, anything narrower than that would work, I can make spacers. I also discovered that I don't have the rear engine mount plates, so if anyone has a line on a set of those, let me know. I don't know how I didn't notice that before.


Kevin

.

frichie68
08-07-2014, 04:34 PM
A little Armorall would've saved those tires...

Shaky Jake
08-08-2014, 09:13 AM
Quick update on the front wheel - Walker Machine says they have the front wheel hub ball cups in stock, so I ordered a set. They said they can make me a set of cones too, but it will take a couple of months or so. So, when the new cups come in I'll put the front wheel together with them, new balls, and the old cones. I'll have to make a new center axle myself. It will be easy to change out the cones after the AMCA Davenport meet. Also, I was able to salvage two original Indian spokes from one of the rear wheels, and they are an identical match for the spokes on the front wheel, so I will be able to replace the missing spoke on my front wheel with one of them. When it's all done the front wheel will have new guts, but still be crusty on the outside.




I've learned that the wheels on these old motorcycles are built more like a modern bicycle wheel than like a modern motorcycle wheel. If you're not familiar with bicycle wheels, the names of the parts might seem strange. For example, the bearing races that are pressed into the hub are called cups:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-gSnsPDM/0/L/2014-08-08%2007.18.40-L.jpg




And the other bearing races are called the cones, and they have a dust shield around them:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-rQ5jXMh/0/L/2014-08-08%2007.12.50-L.jpg




The wheels have two axles, a hollow axle and a center axle. This is the hollow axle:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-F2Gff6r/0/L/2014-08-08%2007.12.19-L.jpg




The hollow axle is threaded on both ends. Note that the threads are shorter on one end than the other. The short threads are the stationary end, because the cone on that end threads tight against the shoulder. The long threads are the adjustable end, because the cone on that end is used to adjust the bearing clearances:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-SPXfstq/0/L/2014-08-08%2007.12.07-L.jpg






This is the center axle:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-QBwWR5W/0/L/2014-08-08%2007.22.59-L.jpg




The balls can either be caged or loose. Here are some examples of both:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-TBxkPjW/0/L/2014-08-08%2007.17.54-L.jpg




The hollow axle goes through the hub:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-XNQ7Hm7/0/L/2014-08-08%2007.19.52-L.jpg




Then the balls go in:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-W9XTmTk/0/L/2014-08-08%2007.20.16-L.jpg




Then the cones go on:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-VRHgVgK/0/L/2014-08-08%2007.21.42-L.jpg




Then the center axle goes in, to hold the wheel to the forks:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-VFqLtRV/0/L/2014-08-08%2007.22.18-L.jpg



The front wheels don't have a bushing between the center axle and the hollow axle (none is listed in the parts list) so it appears that it's just the O.D. of the center axle that centers it in the I.D. of the hollow axle. On the rear wheel, which I will post shortly, there is a bushing to center the center axle in the hollow axle.



Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
08-08-2014, 11:16 AM
The rear wheel came off without cutting the tire - until after. It had an oversized inner tube folded up inside of it, visible before the tire was even removed from the rim:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-NQdngZ7/0/L/2014-07-22%2020.29.32%20%282%29-L.jpg




Some of the lettering was still visible on the rear tire, it was a Goodyear, size 28 x 3:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-vCdsrGc/0/L/2014-07-22%2020.26.14%20%282%29-L.jpg




In this next picture you can see the skip-tooth bicycle sprocket that someone had fitted to it. The little part with the red paint on it is the bushing I mentioned earlier, that centers the center axle in the hollow axle. It also acts as a spacer between the ends of the wheel assembly and the swingarm. The little fishtail piece is the axle adjuster, you can see the one original rear axle nut that I have, the 7/16" balls, and the end of the stationary cone:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-HMgmcDH/0/L/2014-07-22%2020.41.38%20%282%29-L.jpg




Next is a picture of the brake side (right hand side) of the wheel. You can see the adjusting cone. On the rear wheel the adjusting cone is different than the stationary cone, the adjusting cone has a hex on it and the stationary cone does not. After looking things over I think the wheel was assembled wrong. It looks to me like the stationary cone should be on the right side, shouldered against the brake hub, and the adjusting cone should be on the left side where it is accessible without removing the brake hub. If anyone knows, please comment. Here's the picture:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-qkkmnKm/0/L/2014-07-22%2020.43.20%20%282%29-L.jpg




This is the reproduction brake hub that I got from Ziggy Kapuscinski:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-SQqt8p2/0/L/2014-07-28%2011.07.29%20%283%29-L.jpg




As you can see in this picture, the hollow axle was broken in two pieces:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-WX4sRDC/0/L/2014-07-29%2011.01.54%20%282%29-L.jpg




Probably because of the broken hollow axle, one of the bushings is severely worn where it inserts into the hollow axle:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-QZpGTxV/0/L/2014-07-29%2011.02.10%20%282%29-L.jpg




The bearing cups look a bit rough, but we'll see what they look like after I clean them up:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-fLg28Cc/0/L/2014-07-29%2011.02.38%20%282%29-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-S35xX2R/0/L/2014-07-29%2011.02.51%20%282%29-L.jpg



Stay tuned - more to come.

Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
08-08-2014, 12:21 PM
Once the rear wheel hub cups were cleaned up, you could see some pits, as I expected.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-X224fcm/0/L/2014-08-08%2010.25.30%20%282%29-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-5Xx4rrR/0/L/2014-08-08%2010.26.28%20%282%29-L.jpg




After I soaked it in Evaporust, and preserved it with Strongarm, the adjusting cone looked pretty good:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-KpBD2Dp/0/L/2014-08-07%2012.37.22%20%282%29-L.jpg




The stationary cone was pitted, and it was frozen to the broken hollow axle:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-WrF83Fd/0/L/2014-08-07%2012.36.47%20%282%29-L.jpg




The bushings cleaned up pretty well in the Evaporust:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-R3qxznQ/0/L/2014-08-07%2012.37.50%20%282%29-L.jpg




I was able to get the sprocket nut off. It's a little beat up, but useable:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-Rn2jdfV/0/L/2014-08-07%2012.36.56%20%282%29-L.jpg




Some of the spokes had been replaced with bailing wire secured with a little square of tin on the inside of the rim. Notice the fossilized bugs in the second picture. I wonder if they could extract some DNA and start a Jurassic Park:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-PdLssWH/0/L/2014-07-29%2011.03.13%20%282%29-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-QKfcgLV/0/L/2014-07-29%2011.03.22%20%282%29-L.jpg




And some of the spokes had been replaced with #9 wire twisted together:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-w9ztrBL/0/L/2014-08-08%2010.27.31%20%282%29-L.jpg




The rim itself looks like it can be saved:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-kgtTSNb/0/L/2014-07-22%2020.43.47%20%282%29-L.jpg




Next, I'll post some pictures of the spare wheel.

Kevin

.

rwm
08-08-2014, 08:44 PM
do you really plan on ridding clinchers in the cannonball ?

Shaky Jake
08-08-2014, 10:54 PM
do you really plan on ridding clinchers in the cannonball ?

I'm still up in the air about that Rob. I have heard that Coker has had some quality issues with their clincher tires. Other than that, I really don't know much about them. If you or anyone has any knowledge or experience to share, I would be very interested in hearing about it. Since I'm planning to build a drum brake front wheel, as I mentioned, it would be most easy to keep a drop center rim on it. I have a spare rear hub so I could build a drop center wheel with that. Then I could use modern tires, which are probably better. But this isn't about being better, it's about being old. So, I'm up in the air. Input is desired.

Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
08-08-2014, 10:56 PM
As I mentioned earlier, I have a spare rear wheel. It was presumed to be the wheel to the sidecar, but it's actually a rear wheel. The good news is, it has a good hollow axle:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-h6KTMgV/0/L/2014-07-29%2012.46.29-L.jpg




The pits in the cones are pretty bad though:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-TJ3Gr7x/0/L/2014-07-29%2012.47.38-L.jpg




Somebody had bolted a solid piece of a tire to the rim, with no pneumatics:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-wQPmZcP/0/L/2014-07-29%2017.31.14-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-VC8VHFb/0/L/2014-07-29%2017.31.36-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-bZdbhGn/0/L/2014-07-29%2017.31.06-L.jpg




I wonder how that worked out for them. Obviously, that had to come off:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-rBvF7gL/0/L/2014-07-29%2017.43.32-L.jpg




There was a rim strip on it, I'm not sure why. And there was a lot of rust. And what appeared to be a piece of an old belt. Who knows what they were thinking:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-xt4PvJ7/0/L/2014-07-29%2017.43.40-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-ghNSXMP/0/L/2014-07-29%2017.45.06-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-WKkV3qM/0/L/2014-07-29%2017.46.54-L.jpg



Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
08-08-2014, 10:58 PM
It had been fitted with a grease cup in the place of the normal grease fitting. And, similar to the front wheel, there was some fancy spoke work:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-ztd8tqB/0/L/2014-07-29%2017.31.58-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-RtqfVJS/0/L/2014-07-29%2017.32.16-L.jpg




The rim was rusted beyond repair. You could actually see light through it in some places:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-h6MqB4q/0/L/2014-07-30%2008.47.12-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-fzCvbXX/0/L/2014-07-30%2008.48.00-L.jpg




Since the rim was shot, I went ahead and de-spoked it. It took all afternoon, but I was able to remove 26 of the 36 spokes with out cutting or breaking them. The two spokes on the left match the spokes in the front wheel, and most of the spokes in the other rear wheel, so I think there is a good chance that they are original Indian spokes. I will use one of them to replace the one spoke missing from the front wheel:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-kvMFKzB/0/L/2014-08-06%2019.15.07-L.jpg




After soaking in the Evaporust for a bit, the hub looked really good. The threads are good on both ends. One of the bearing cups is cracked but replacements are available. After a little hand work to clean it up, I'll see about getting this one re-plated:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-LthMVm5/0/L/2014-08-08%2020.00.22-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-q4Qxg6S/0/L/2014-08-08%2019.59.50-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-QQF7xCh/0/L/2014-08-08%2019.59.58-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-bsGSvX2/0/L/2014-08-08%2019.59.37-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-V8wcBVp/0/L/2014-08-08%2019.59.22-L.jpg




That's it for today. Next I need to take stock of what rear wheel parts I have that are good (between the two wheels), what parts I can buy, and formulate a plan to build a Cannonball worthy rear wheel.


Kevin

.

rwm
08-09-2014, 07:57 AM
keep the clinchers for ridding around the fairgrounds and swap meets. the best way to look at it is you would not run the Boston marathon in flip flops. i'm not sure if you can even get a good tube for them.
this part probably wont gain me any friends " lonnie should not let anybody run them in his event"

exeric
08-09-2014, 10:00 AM
Also, I would convert your hubs to run Timken tapered roller bearings, or quality sealed ball bearings if you want to run at sustained speeds. You should have no trouble finding modern bearings that can be adapted to your hubs, and some creative machine work will make them invisible, and undetectable. Years ago, my '17 Hen spit out the balls in the rear hub while moving. What a mess.

Shaky Jake
08-09-2014, 11:08 AM
I woke up this morning thinking about the history of thread standards. In High School, I used to hate history, now I find it fascinating. The early 1900's must have been an exciting time in industry. You had guys like Edison, Glenn Curtis, the Wrights, Hedstrom, Harley & Davidson, Henry Ford, and on and on, all working out the basic standards and techniques that we still use and refine today. They took design and manufacturing from not much more than 'arts and crafts,' all the way to mass production of complicated machines. If you think about it, before the late 1800's, we were still at the tail end of the iron age. People were still shoving hunks of iron into fires and beating on them with a big hammer, while some kid pumped on a bellows to keep the fire hot. A few years later, in the early 1900's, the civilized world was fully industrialized.

What got me thinking about all this? The fact that I can't go down to the hardware store and buy a 1/4" - 24 TPI bolt to hold the fender on my Indian. 1/4 - 24 doesn't match any modern standard. On the Indian almost every fastener has 24 threads per inch. So far, I've seen 24 TPI on everything from 1/4 inch bolts to 7/8 inch hollow axles. Most of the people on this forum have spun a wrench at some time or another and know that, in the modern world, thread pitch usually changes with bolt size to some extent. Indian's engineers, for whatever reason, stuck with 24 TPI on everything. I wish I could talk to them about it, just to understand their thinking. As an Engineer myself, I envy their freedom to create their designs without having to mold their thoughts to fit preconceived standards.

Looking at the history of the Society of Automotive Engineers on Wikipedia this morning, I know that they started in 1902. But it sounds like they didn't really get going until 1916 (same year my bike was built) when they joined forces with folks from the American Society of Aeronautical Engineers, the Society of Tractor Engineers, National Association of Engine and Boat Manufacturers, the National Gas Engine Association, the American Society of Agricultural Engineers, the National Gas Engine Association and the National Association of Engine and Boat Manufacturers. I suspect that the railroad guys had a hand in things too, but I didn't see anything about that. I'm pretty sure the gun industry had a lot to do with thread standardization as well. Having been an Engineer for the last 32 years, I know it makes sense to have standards. There's no reason to design every fastener, alloy, chain, key way, etc. from scratch. With standards, you can pick these things from a catalog and design your machine around them.

I know from past reading that, prior to the early 1900's, most bolt threads were fairly coarse, because the metals weren't that good. As industry advanced, better alloys were developed that made finer threads possible. Early American (SAE) thread standards are now called UNC (Unified National Coarse). Early British thread standards were also coarse, and they're called Whitworth. UNC and Whitworth fasteners are both in inches, and if it wasn't for the fact that early Whitworth used 55 degree rounded threads, and SAE used 60 degree threads with a squared off tip, they otherwise match pretty close. If you use my example of a 1/4 inch bolt, Whitworth and UNC are both 20 TPI. 3/8 Whitworth and UNC are both 16 TPI. A 1/2 inch Whitworth, however, is 12 TPI while a 1/2 inch UNC is 13. Anyway, as better alloys were developed (being driven by world wide industrialization and world wide wars) they were able to cut finer threads so we Americans developed Unified National Fine (UNF) threads and the British developed CEI and BSC (Cycle Engineers Institute and British Standard Cycle) threads. The other big difference between British and American bolt standards the way the wrenches are labeled. The Brits decided that every 1/4 inch Whitworth bolt must have the same size head, and the wrench you use to turn it will be called a 1/4 Whitworth wrench. We Americans decided that a 1/4 inch bolt can have any size head you want, and you just use a wrench that fits the distance across the flats (AF) of the head to turn it. So a 1/4 inch UNC bolt might use a 3/8 inch wrench, or it might use a 7/16 inch wrench. Either way works, I guess we were still just a little more focused on freedom than the Brits at the time. :D

If you read through the old Indian advertisements from the teens, they were very proud of their advanced metallurgy. The ads say that their motorcycles are made from vanadium steel. I'm not a metallurgist, but it must have been good stuff for the time. Henry Ford made also made his chassis' out of vanadium steel during that period. Anyway, it's safe to assume that the materials that Indian was using were capable of supporting fine threads because most of the threads on my motorcycle have held up for almost 100 years. Fine threads were pretty high tech at the time, I think.

So, in the end, what will I do about my fender bolts? I'll go to a hardware store (which are getting harder to find) and buy a 1/4 - 28 bolt with a long shank, cut the threaded part off, and thread the shank with a 1/4 - 24 threading die. I'm not sure why they still sell 1/4 - 24 threading dies, but I'm thankful that they do.

Enjoy your weekend.


Kevin

.

exeric
08-09-2014, 11:39 AM
Very interesting post Kevin, and I often have the same thoughts when I come across some remarkable piece of ancient engineering. I just bought a AMMECUP/Weston ammeter for my '19 Henderson. In taking it apart to replace the lens, I have seen craftsmanship, engineering, and tool and die work that has no equal today. Our love of early motorcycles is just a testament to our mental illness of anachronism. . . And I have no interest in a cure:)

Shaky Jake
08-09-2014, 11:40 AM
I really appreciate the input on tires and bearings. I'm conflicted over this. I am going to build a set of original wheels, with clincher tires and ball bearings, but I am still considering whether to use them for the Cannonball. I have a spare rear hub, and I have a lathe, so I could make some adapters to replace the ball cups, that would hold tapered bearings. Then I could lace on a 36 hole drop center rim. The little white guy on my right shoulder says that would be easy enough. The little red guy on my left shoulder says "but Cannonball Baker had clincher tires. And balls :D." The white guy says "but Baker wasn't riding sustained speeds on Interstate highways in heavy traffic" the red guy says "but he was riding in harsh conditions across mountains and deserts, and he made it." The white guy says "Oh, everything has to be perfect with you." The red guy says "Pussy." And it escalates from there. You get the idea.

One guy on another forum suggested using a modern dynamo front hub, with drum brake, from http://www.sturmey-archer.com/products/hubs/cid/2/id/48/tech/1.html . My Indian doesn't have an electrical system. I was planning on using a rechargeable battery pack to run the lights, if needed. I would recharge it every night. But with the Sturmey Archer dynamo hub, I could charge the battery going down the road.

So, two of my options might be:

A - Build my original wheels and use them as back-ups for the Cannonball. Build a Cannonball rear wheel with tapered bearings, drop center wheel, and a modern tire. Build a new front wheel with drum brake and dynamo, drop center wheel, and modern tire. Then, in the evenings, I can spend my time drinking and carousing with the other Cannonballers, rather than adjusting wheels bearings, charging batteries, and changing tires.

Or:

#2 - Another option would be to build two sets of original style wheels, so I have a spare set. Take the chance of crashing into someone in traffic due to no front brake, or falling off when one of my hubs spits it's balls out. Spend my evenings servicing wheels instead of drinking, carousing, and sleeping, but feel like a hero when (if) I finish.


It sounds like I have two votes for option A. Any advocates of option #2?


Thanks for your input - seriously.



Kevin

.

exeric
08-09-2014, 12:03 PM
I'm glad you brought Mr. Baker into the discussion because he did use "original" equipment, and he made his rides alone, and without support vehicles. He also did his record runs under much worse conditions, with extreme time pressure, and virtually no support along the way.

My personal opinion is; the most noble accomplishment would be on clinchers, no front brake, and cone-ball-and cup wheel bearings.

But, safety has to be considered, and so does fun.

Steve Swan
08-09-2014, 12:31 PM
A dear deceased friend who was a motorcycle man from the late 20's til he died 1998 (also a machinist/tool and die maker, Harley Davidson dealer in the early-mid 30's, service manager for a So.Cal H-D dealer until the war broke out) told me the greater number of tpi gave more mating surface area for the threads to pull against each other. He explained more threads, more surface area, the idea was to prevent loosening, because lock washers were uncommonly fitted. And the finer tpi screws had a higher grade better fitting thread to get as much material against the mating surface areas. Riveting or cotter pins were used in applications where excessive loosening was a concern. In the early 1900's through the late 20's, especially before the lock washer became commonly used, much research and testing went into diameter and thread pitch combination to reduce breakage and loosening. At least that's how he explained it to me. I have a copy of his H-D dealer letter head from the 30's and also 2 pictures of him with Clark Gable outside the dealership he was service manager at before WW2.

fciron
08-09-2014, 12:36 PM
Nice bit here from the Cannonball website, an article by Mr. Baker himself about the Ner-A-Car trip. (I'm partial to the Ner-A-Car, I just got one.) It certainly gives the impression that he had a network of friends and support across the country as a result of his earlier trips, so there's no shame in going on an organized ride with a chase vehicle, IMHO.

http://www.motorcyclecannonball.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=268:how-i-crossed-america-on-neracar&catid=36:history-stories&Itemid=58

I think modern road conditions are more akin to a 1916 speed record attempt than a 1916 cross-country journey, so it would be reasonable to modify your bike to withstand sustained high speeds that the bike was not designed for. Perhaps you could compromise and use the best bearings available at the time. The oldest Machinery's Handbook I have is from 1924 and it has comprehensive selection of ball, roller, and even angular contact bearings.

Really it's about what you want to achieve; is your goal to make the journey on a bike that is as original as possible, to complete the journey and have a good time, or possibly to be the guy that gets the best time and comes in first?

Once you decide on that goal, then you can decide on how much you need to improve the bike to meet that goal.

Good luck and keep the pictures coming.

Lewis

Shaky Jake
08-09-2014, 03:26 PM
A dear deceased friend who was a motorcycle man from the late 20's til he died 1998 (also a machinist/tool and die maker, Harley Davidson dealer in the early-mid 30's, service manager for a So.Cal H-D dealer until the war broke out) told me the greater number of tpi gave more mating surface area for the threads to pull against each other. He explained more threads, more surface area, the idea was to prevent loosening, because lock washers were uncommonly fitted. And the finer tpi screws had a higher grade better fitting thread to get as much material against the mating surface areas. Riveting or cotter pins were used in applications where excessive loosening was a concern. In the early 1900's through the late 20's, especially before the lock washer became commonly used, much research and testing went into diameter and thread pitch combination to reduce breakage and loosening. At least that's how he explained it to me. I have a copy of his H-D dealer letter head from the 30's and also 2 pictures of him with Clark Gable outside the dealership he was service manager at before WW2.

Thanks for sharing that memory Steve. It seems like a lot of technical information that was known in those days was not written down, it's good to talk about it. You're right about lock washers. The few lock washers that I've found on my bike were clearly not original, just something someone used because they didn't have the right part. In general I've noticed that the clearances between bolts and bolt holes is tight by todays standards, too. Rivets and pins are common on it.

Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
08-09-2014, 03:33 PM
Eric and Lewis, you make good points. In general I have never been one that feels the need to prove my manhood. What Baker did was cool. I will never be able to do what he did, that ship has sailed, times have changed. No matter what I do on the Cannonball it will not be as cool as what he did. I don't really care about winning either, I just want to do it. So, at this point, I'm leaning towards option A, with the modern tires and drinking and carousing.

I'm still willing to listen to opposing views... I've got two years to go.

Kevin

.

exeric
08-09-2014, 03:39 PM
Common engineering practice is to use fine threads in harder metals like steel, and coarse threads in castings, and soft metals like brass, and aluminum. I've always thought 1/4-24 was a compromise fastener that was used because it covered more applications. H-D and Indian used that thread size a lot, particularly H-D.

bobbyt
08-09-2014, 08:45 PM
Many of the early motorcycle makers began as bicycle makers. The early thread pitches likely came from
bicycle engineering. The standardization really started during WWI; the military needed it.

Bob Turek
#769

Shaky Jake
08-10-2014, 01:43 PM
Now that I've got both rear wheels apart I've taken a look to see what it's going to take to put together an original rear wheel. I'm not saying I'm going to ride the Cannonball on an original rear wheel, I may or may not, it may be my back-up.

I've got two good hubs, each with one bad bearing cup. I've get one good adjusting cone, missing it's dust shield. I've got one good hollow axle. I've got one good rim, still attached to one of the hubs, but needing at least 5 new spokes. I've got one axle nut, rough but good enough to use or copy. I have one usable sprocket nut. I've got one chain adjuster plate and one chain adjuster screw. I have one good axle bushing. I have 26 spokes that I saved from the rear wheel, some of which may be useable. So, here's a list of what I need to make one wheel:

(1) Brake Drum
(1) Brake Drum Retaining Nut
(5+) Spokes & Nipples
(1) Chain Adjuster
(1) Chain Adjuster Screw
(1) Center Axle
(1) Center Axle Nut
(1) Rear Sprocket
(1) Bearing Cup
(22) 7/16" Ball Bearings
(1) Stationary Cone w/ Dust Cap
(1) Adjusting Cone Dust Cap
(1) Axle Bushing


Ziggy Kapuscinski in Canada has a repop brake drum, so I've ordered it and it's on the way.

I've ordered the following rear wheel parts from Walker Machine:
(2) Ball Bearing Cups (I might as well replace them both)
(22) 7/16 inch Ball Bearings
(1) Adjustable cone w/ Dust Cap (I'll use my old one for a spare)
(1) Chain Adjuster Plate
(2) Axle Bushings (I'll use my good one for a spare)
(1) 36 tooth Rear Sprocket



So, that leaves me short the following parts, which I have not found a source for:
(1) Brake Drum Retaining Nut
(1) Chain Adjuster Screw
(1) Center Axle
(1) Center Axle Nut
(1) Stationary Cone w/ Dust Cap



If anyone knows a source for these parts, please let me know. I heard there's another Indian parts guy somewhere in Oregon, but I haven't researched it yet. Any info would be helpful. The most critical item is the stationary cone. If I can buy the other stuff too, good. Otherwise, I think I know a local machinist that can make the drum retaining nut for me. The chain adjuster screw, center axle, and center axle nuts I'm pretty sure I can make myself.

The overall plan will be to use the original hub and rim, which are still laced together, as the basis for the wheel. I'll de-rust the rim in place, adjust and replace spokes as needed, stuff the new parts into the hub, and mount it up.

Parting comment - I've been thinking about Lewis's comments about goals. My goal for the 2016 Cannonball is to ride all of the miles on my 100 year old motorcycle. That's what I'm working towards.


Have a blessed Sunday.


Kevin

.

Robert Luland
08-10-2014, 03:38 PM
Keven, seems like your off to a good start. Nothing for nothing but whats wrong with that lathe in your shop. Seems to me you could easily make ninety percent of what your looking for and do a great job. That is what restoring and learning is about. I to shyed away from the machines when I started out but it didn't take me long to realize that the lathe and mill were my allies in a very uphill fight. Bob L

Shaky Jake
08-10-2014, 05:50 PM
Keven, seems like your off to a good start. Nothing for nothing but whats wrong with that lathe in your shop. Seems to me you could easily make ninety percent of what your looking for and do a great job. That is what restoring and learning is about. I to shyed away from the machines when I started out but it didn't take me long to realize that the lathe and mill were my allies in a very uphill fight. Bob L

You make a good point Robert. There's nothing wrong with that little Southbend, I use it all the time. I used to work as a Machinist, in the 1970's. I have the skills and I enjoy doing it. I don't shy away from it. If you read the thread you know that I've already said that I'll make whatever parts I can't buy. To answer your question, it's all about the time. If someone has a part on the shelf, it saves me time.

That being said, if you have a line on a good used Bridgeport, I've been keeping an eye out for one, even though I don't have a place to put it yet.

Kevin

.

Robert Luland
08-10-2014, 09:07 PM
OK, may be I missed something here. You want to finish this bike and be 100 percent road ready to leave in this years Cannon Ball in September? And yet your talking about maybe being able to use the original rims. I wish you all the luck in the world Sir. Bob L

Shaky Jake
08-10-2014, 09:48 PM
OK, may be I missed something here. You want to finish this bike and be 100 percent road ready to leave in this years Cannon Ball in September? And yet your talking about maybe being able to use the original rims. I wish you all the luck in the world Sir. Bob L

Maybe you did, or maybe I made a typing error somewhere? 2016 Cannonball (if they have one). When it's 100 years old. I said that in the 4th post, and again in my post right before your first one. Two years is still an aggressive schedule, but much better than a month. Sorry for the confusion if I typo'd it somewhere. I appreciate your input and good wishes Bob.

Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
08-11-2014, 10:58 AM
Some good news on the front wheel. It turns out that Walker Machine has bearing cups in stock, so I ordered a set of those. I've already ordered the ball bearings from them. They say they can make the cones, but it will take a while. Once they shoot me a price I'll probably order a set of them. As for the front axle, I got a PM from a member of a different forum telling me that bicycle coaster brake hubs use 3/8 - 24 TPI axles, which is what I need. Sure enough, I got on ebay and found one that looks like it will work. Once all that stuff comes in, I will have what I need to fix my original front wheel.

Kevin

.

10E
08-11-2014, 09:31 PM
Shaky Jake
Just noticed your posts on clincher rims etc.
I've put on approx. 20k miles on clinchers on my 14 HD. Pretty hard riding at times. No flats or problems, we even used rickshaw tires in the 70s. On one run across the country using Cocker Non-Skid tires I was actually down to the cord beforeI changed it ( not recommended) On the same ride had a screwdriver go through the sidewall and out the other side without hitting the tube, not sure how many miles I rode it like that ( up to 300 miles maybe) and have the photo to prove it, and then------- Cleveland Ohio 2012.
Not sure what actually happened but after 60 miles of freeway travel we were on a B road on ramp at speed (45/50) when the rear tire came off the rim, wrapped itself around around the frame and I had some very violent fishtales until I decided to go down before it tossed me over the handlebars.
Lesson 1 End of lesson. Drop-center rims are safer than clinchers----- I now have modern rims and tires. and consider myself very fortunate.
Funny, Just rode 120 miles on the Pete Youngs" "Rigid Ride" and still feel that the Non Skids give a better feel for the road, go figure. I'm sticking with the modern stuff.
Hope this helps
All the best
10E

Shaky Jake
08-12-2014, 08:27 AM
Thanks for sharing your experience, 10E. That's exactly the kind of information I need. I hope you have healed well after the accident. Having been over the handlebars myself, well, some of my old bones are aching just thinking about it. I'm pretty sure I'm going to use modern rims and tires on the Cannonball.

Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
08-13-2014, 07:45 AM
All things considered, the rear suspension was to be pretty tight, despite it's crusty appearance:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-6Z5vhcq/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.41.57-L.jpg




Some of the fasteners had been switched around, and the nickel plated parts had been painted with a brush:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-P84kPbS/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.40.38%20%282%29-L.jpg




But the swingarm pivot appeared to be tight:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-W4xbnkW/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.39.24%20%282%29-L.jpg




Looking up from under the transmission mount, there is a bolt that clamps the swingarm pin in place:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-2FMsMDW/0/L/2014-08-06%2015.21.01-L.jpg




Once the bolt was out, and the bushings well soaked with penetrating oil, I used a chunk of brass and a hammer to drive the pin back and forth, until it loosened up:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-zQtWxpK/0/L/2014-08-06%2015.21.54-L.jpg




And out she came:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-p3PtTt5/0/L/2014-08-06%2015.21.29-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-DCKjS6p/0/L/2014-08-06%2015.23.20-L.jpg




This is the pin after it was cleaned up. It looks rough in the picture, but it's actually pretty smooth, just a bit stained:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-zjBjVfh/0/L/2014-08-07%2012.36.31-L.jpg




This is what the bushings looked like after the pin was out. They look crusty, but they cleaned up really nicely. I forget to get an 'after' picture.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-89GJtjS/0/L/2014-08-06%2016.04.35-L.jpg




There are four bolts that attach the swingarm uprights to the leaf springs. Once they are removed, the swingarm is free:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-2t4CDP6/0/L/2014-08-06%2016.04.07-L.jpg




Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
08-13-2014, 08:26 AM
Six more bolts and the rear leaf spring assemblies are off. That's my trophy wife / helper in the background:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-CJkwrkb/0/L/2014-08-06%2019.49.21-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-rLR34zZ/0/L/2014-08-06%2019.48.05-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-NPTvtCw/0/L/2014-08-06%2019.52.14-L.jpg




I cleaned the leaves up with some Strongarm and a soft bristled brush. I used a some brown Scothchbrite on the unpainted surfaces. On this top leaf you can see the contrast between the old repaint (the brighter red), and the original Indian paint (I believe) that was covered by the casting that the springs mount to:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-82GqLHJ/0/L/2014-08-07%2013.37.29-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-qbmzs4v/0/L/2014-08-07%2013.37.34-L.jpg




These are the leaves for one side, after cleaning and preserving:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-cWKc9Tv/0/L/2014-08-08%2012.15.20-L.jpg




These pieces of leather were between the top leaf on each side and the frame casting. They were still soft, I oiled them and re-used them:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-mqqvzgK/0/L/2014-08-10%2014.58.22-L.jpg




The owners manual says that the leaf springs are assembled with a layer of grease between them, so that's what I did:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-rDTdbph/0/L/2014-08-10%2010.09.39-L.jpg




In this video only one set of springs is installed and they are not clamped down, so you can see how the rear suspension moves:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/od4EAa0pJiU?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>




During the process of cleaning things up, I noticed these casting marks above the transmission mounting holes. I'm not sure if they mean anything to anybody, but I wanted to document them here:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-c52sQH2/0/L/2014-08-10%2011.50.42-L.jpg




I received some rear wheel parts from Walker Machine the day before yesterday, and I talked to Ziggy yesterday and he said my brake drum should be here today or tomorrow, so I'll start assembling a rear wheel soon. I've also been tinkering with the handlebar controls for the throttle and spark advance. Pictures to follow.



Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
08-15-2014, 09:35 AM
A real quick one; nobody stocks a rear axle for it, and my old one was dorked up. Apparently the threads wore out on one end so they resized that end and threaded it with a course thread. I sourced a piece of 1/2" C1045 cold drawn precision shaft to make the new one from. It has very good dimensional accuracy, almost like a ground finish, and it has good mechanical properties and machinability. I cut a piece to the same length as the old axle:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-DQvgL8D/0/L/2014-08-13%2009.39.58-L.jpg




I faced off the ends and rounded the corners with a file, just to make it purdy:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-W8Jm7cG/0/L/2014-08-13%2009.56.43-L.jpg




And tapped it to 24 TPI on both ends. Notice the curl coming off the die, this stuff cuts really nicely:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-97L3zdm/0/L/2014-08-13%2010.17.43-L.jpg




The new nuts threaded on smoothly by hand:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-t8FSJZk/0/L/2014-08-13%2010.23.58-L.jpg




Fin:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-ZPBXSWn/0/L/2014-08-13%2011.08.50-L.jpg




On the bike with the hollow axle, to test the fit:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-vLcBg8B/0/L/2014-08-13%2011.19.02-L.jpg




The adjustable cone that I got from Walker has left handed threads, and both of my hollow axles have right handed threads on both ends. I emailed them and asked if they can supply a hollow axle with L.H. threads on the adjustable end. In the mean time, I can't assemble a rear wheel yet. The front wheel parts are on order too.


Cheers,

Kevin

.

djones
08-15-2014, 01:00 PM
Kevin,

Just found this thread and enjoyed getting caught up with your progress. Really doing a good job with it, and the payoff is huge when you are finished and know the bike REALLY well. Very satisfying process, although aggravating at times.

I to am fascinated with the history of these bikes, and my comments in my build thread mirror some of yours. Really neat to be working on / rebuilding something with a century of history. I said many times " the stories it could tell".

Just to add my vote on the Cannonball build, I wanted to build mine as closely as possible to what riders of the era were riding. The problems they faced are a big part of what makes it intriguing to me. Roadside repairs and long nights were common practice for riders of this period. My '29 had loose ball hubs and an external band brake, so that's how I'm running it. I believe you should rebuild and prepare to the best of your ability without changing the design of the day. That to me is the spirit of the Cannonball.

However, safety issues have to be considered, along with irreplaceable parts that now have decades of fatigue. Cannonball Baker was no doubt one tuff SOB, and his stuff was stock, but it was also new. Broken cases and wheels could be bought down at the dealer. Thankfully, folks like the Walkers and Ziggy are making parts to help us along. There is also a lot of help out there to get you through.

Again, good luck, and I am very interested in watching your progress because I will start the process all over again this winter on my '14 twin. Part of my continuing education.

Doug

Shaky Jake
08-17-2014, 01:51 PM
Kevin,

Just found this thread and enjoyed getting caught up with your progress. Really doing a good job with it, and the payoff is huge when you are finished and know the bike REALLY well. Very satisfying process, although aggravating at times.

I to am fascinated with the history of these bikes, and my comments in my build thread mirror some of yours. Really neat to be working on / rebuilding something with a century of history. I said many times " the stories it could tell".

Just to add my vote on the Cannonball build, I wanted to build mine as closely as possible to what riders of the era were riding. The problems they faced are a big part of what makes it intriguing to me. Roadside repairs and long nights were common practice for riders of this period. My '29 had loose ball hubs and an external band brake, so that's how I'm running it. I believe you should rebuild and prepare to the best of your ability without changing the design of the day. That to me is the spirit of the Cannonball.

However, safety issues have to be considered, along with irreplaceable parts that now have decades of fatigue. Cannonball Baker was no doubt one tuff SOB, and his stuff was stock, but it was also new. Broken cases and wheels could be bought down at the dealer. Thankfully, folks like the Walkers and Ziggy are making parts to help us along. There is also a lot of help out there to get you through.

Again, good luck, and I am very interested in watching your progress because I will start the process all over again this winter on my '14 twin. Part of my continuing education.

Doug



Thanks Doug. I'm having a blast with it so far. I appreciate your input on the Cannonball. At this point I have two years to decide what to do, and I'm not sure which way I'll go. My biggest concern at this point is the brakes. I have a lot of experience riding bikes from the '60's, and have gotten used to brakes from that era, which are much less effective than modern brakes. But I have no experience with brakes from the teens. When the time comes, I'll know what to do.

I tried to do a search for your build thread, would you mind posting a link to it? I'd like to read it.

Thanks,

Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
08-17-2014, 01:52 PM
Overall, the handlebars are in decent shape. There are some dents and some of the plating is worn, but hey, it's almost 100 years old. The way they're designed is there's a control sleeve that rotates on the end of each handlebar. The control sleeves attach to flexible shafts that run through the handlebars and stick out the front, where they will attach to the linkages. On my bike the control sleeve and flexible shaft on the right (spark control side) were missing:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-VthmjhC/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.44.25%20%282%29-L.jpg




...but it did have a control sleeve and flex shaft on the left (throttle control) side.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-GDHxRJV/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.44.12%20%282%29-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-zSXDnWX/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.43.08%20%282%29-L.jpg




Thankfully, the splines on the handlebar and in the clamp were all in very good condition:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-cBZM6w4/0/L/2014-08-09%2012.35.53-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-tgPBCTH/0/L/2014-08-09%2012.36.32-L.jpg




I decided to use repop flex shafts that I got from Ziggy Kapuscinski on both sides. I'll save the old one for my spare. In this picture the old flex shaft is in the foreground, and the two new ones are behind it:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-NnzMHwQ/0/L/2014-08-09%2012.44.37-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-nmMHLVs/0/L/2014-08-09%2012.44.46-L.jpg




The new sleeves are slightly different than the old ones, the old one has a bar across the ID that the flex shaft attaches to, and the new ones just have a square hole for the flex shaft to attach to. In the second and third pictures you can also see the spring that goes inside the sleeve and bears against the end of the handlebar, to keep the assembly tight:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-ZpdWbSp/0/L/2014-08-09%2012.52.25-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-jT3TQzf/0/L/2014-08-09%2012.52.15-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-9jtxGKF/0/L/2014-08-09%2012.52.10-L.jpg




I cleaned up the inside of the handlebars and preserved them with Strongarm. I gave everything a thick coating of grease and got it ready to assemble.

Stay tuned...


Kevin

.

exeric
08-17-2014, 02:24 PM
In regards to modern front brakes on early motorcycles; you have to be cautious that your brake isn't too powerful for the fork itself. Many of those forks could break at the stem or at the crown area. I like what Brad Wilmarth did for a front brake on his 1913 Excelsior. Check it out on some of the archival pictures from early Cannonball events.

Shaky Jake
08-17-2014, 02:30 PM
In regards to modern front brakes on early motorcycles; you have to be cautious that your brake isn't too powerful for the fork itself. Many of those forks could break at the stem or at the crown area. I like what Brad Wilmarth did for a front brake on his 1913 Excelsior. Check it out on some of the archival pictures from early Cannonball events.

Yes - a very good point Eric. I've thought about that. A buckled fork could be a show stopper, because I probably won't have a spare.

Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
08-17-2014, 03:10 PM
The square hole in the sleeve required a little hand fitting:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-JKhXTPp/0/L/2014-08-09%2012.58.16-L.jpg





And then it all went together. Sorry, I couldn't get my phone to focus on the end of the bar:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-sz29jRm/0/M/2014-08-09%2013.08.17-M.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-t8T8MZK/0/M/2014-08-09%2013.09.27-M.jpg




Once I got the sleeves and flex shafts fitted to the bars, I noticed that the hole where to shaft comes out on the left side was pretty worn. It makes sense, because the throttle control would have been used more than the spark control. Here's a video:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/xoNegMKY1q0?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>




So I decided to sleeve the hole. I dug through my scrap bin and found this old bar end clamp that had brass wedges. The taper on the wedge seemed to be about the right angle for the inboard end of the sleeve:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-QbS687K/0/L/2014-08-11%2012.26.51-L.jpg




So I reamed out the hole in the handlebar a little bit to make it round, and I turned one of the brass wedges down for a press fit in the hole:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-4SgBt8c/0/L/2014-08-11%2012.41.01-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-G2DWk4t/0/L/2014-08-11%2012.44.25-L.jpg




Then I drilled the hole in the sleeve to fit the end of the new flex shaft, cleaned up the hole in the handlebar, smeared some Locktight on the sleeve, and tapped it in place with a mallet. Again, I couldn't get the camera phone to focus, but you get the idea:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-HkxVstR/0/L/2014-08-11%2013.41.58-L.jpg




With the sleeve and new flex shaft in place, the throttle control was much smoother:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/h4cGYRuR1Cc?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>




Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
08-18-2014, 11:13 AM
As I mentioned in the beginning, I got a sidecar with the Indian. I don't know what make the sidecar is, and I don't know if it was ever mounted to the Indian. I didn't get any mounts with it, and I can't see where any mounts have ever been clamped to the frame. Here's a picture:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Old-Sidecar/i-KTPKTrB/0/L/2014-08-14%2011.34.41-L.jpg




I have spent considerable time on the internet trying to figure out what make it is. I have never found a picture of a similar sidecar. Maybe some of you are better at searching than I am. I've talked to people with sidecar expertise, and old motorcycle expertise, and no one has been able to tell me what it is. The previous owner posted a picture on the AMCA forum some time ago, and the general consensus was that it was probably a National Dairy Sidecar, but the pictures that were the basis for that conclusion have disappeared from the forum, so I don't know. I have the frame and tub, as shown in the picture above, but I don't have the axle, wheel, or fender. The frame looks as if it is designed for the type of axle that is adjustable, so you can match the wheelbase to the width of the ruts in the road. The floorboard and rear bulkhead on mine are in pretty rough shape, to the point that I can't tell what the back end of the tub was supposed to look like.









Here's the weird part. After never having been able to find a picture of another sidecar like mine, this pops up on Ebay:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Old-Sidecar/i-QDpXnsf/0/L/%24_57%20%283%29-L.jpg




It appears to be a new/old, never been used, sidecar tub identical to mine except the door is on the other side. It has never been mounted, there are no mounting holes in the sheet metal. It has never been upholstered and it is still in primer. I have no idea how old it is, whether it is original or a replica. It came out of a barn in West Virginia, mine came out of a barn in Saskatchewan, Canada. Of course, I had to buy it. I'll probably pick it up the week after next, just before Davenport.

Insert Twilight Zone music here.



Kevin

.

Tom Lovejoy
08-19-2014, 12:11 AM
very cool Kevin, enjoy watching your progress.

Shaky Jake
08-26-2014, 05:04 PM
very cool Kevin, enjoy watching your progress.

Thanks Tom.



Apologies to all, I've gotten behind on my posts. I've been scrambling to get the Indian to the rolling chassis stage before this weekend. I'll try to get caught up on the posts soon. In the mean time, here are two pictures from today. I'm willing to bet this is the first time this old girl has rolled on new rubber since before I was born. And I'm an old guy.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-7XCNwpn/0/L/2014-08-26%2013.45.16-L.jpg


http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-cBnks8X/0/L/2014-08-26%2014.49.38-L.jpg


Kevin

.

Robert Luland
08-26-2014, 05:17 PM
Kevin, allow me to answer your question. It's all Harley. The first picture is a right sidecar tub on a 23 and down frame. The other tub is left hand. Just look at where the door opens up. Your doing a great job. Having fun following it. Bob L

exeric
08-26-2014, 05:33 PM
Kevin, your sidecar is a National. I had the same opinion as Bob and I thought it was H-D but there was an extensive discussion on this forum about that car, and my Rogers car. I took a quick look with the search function and didn't have any luck, but if you ask Cory, I'm sure he'll be able to fill you in. National built H-D, and Rogers sidecars. The frame on your car is almost identical to my Rogers frame. Your car is perfectly correct as a period accessory for an Indian of that vintage.

Paulvenne
08-26-2014, 05:40 PM
The entire brake assembly seems to be missing:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-vtgwDJk/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.38.17-L.jpg



Does anyone know what this little lug on the swingarm is for?

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-JRJVsVR/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.40.38-L.jpg


There's one on the drive side too, but it's missing it's little cap:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-f9Hs97q/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.40.47-L.jpg



The final drive chain and sprocket actually look like they could be saved. It has that skip link chain though, and all of the drive sprockets I've seen (in the short time that I've been looking) are not skip link. Does anybody know what the original configuration was?

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-vPjFwLR/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.40.57-L.jpg



I'll probably replace the tires:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-sKrn88Q/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.42.47-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-d6zHVsz/0/L/2014-07-05%2009.31.13-L.jpg



Everything seems to be in order with the front wheel, other than a few bent and broken spokes.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-hTBjB9p/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.45.44-L.jpg



I have a spare rear wheel too. Someone attached solid rubber to it in place of the pneumatic tire. You gotta love the spoke repairs:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-VwwWCVW/0/L/2014-07-04%2018.51.48-L.jpg


I'm very interested in that chain. I've never heard of or seen a skip tooth drive chain on an early motorcycle. Plenty on bicycles but not motorcycles. Early chains were very thin and are impossible to find, but skip tooth?? Wow. Please advise if you find literature. Thanks, Paul Venne 1914 Excelsior Model TS.





Kevin

.


I'm very interested in that chain. I've never heard of or seen a skip tooth drive chain on an early motorcycle. Plenty on bicycles but not motorcycles. Early chains were very thin and are impossible to find, but skip tooth?? Wow. Please advise if you find literature. Thanks, Paul Venne 1914 Excelsior Model TS.

exeric
08-26-2014, 05:59 PM
Wow, good eye Paul. That can't be right for a 1916 Powerplus. From what I know (and that ain't much) skip tooth chains were only used for starting early bikes. I would think that with Indian's extensive knowledge of chain drive; they would have gone to a strong 60 drive chain for their final drive. My '16 Excelsior uses a 60 drive chain.

Shaky Jake
08-26-2014, 08:37 PM
I'm pretty sure that skip tooth chain was a cobble job. The funny thing is that the sprocket fits the rear hub, which I'm sure is Indian. I'm not sure if the sprocket was custom made or what. It doesn't have enough teeth on it to work well, I don't think. According to the Indian parts book the chain should be 3/8 wide by 5/8 pitch. Repop sprockets are plentiful.

A couple of people have told me that the sidecar frame is a Rogers, and that seems possible. I also know that there is some relationship between Rogers and National Dairy, and I know that there is a thread on this forum where someone posted some pictures of a National Dairy sidecar that looked like mine. That all happened when Cory owned it, and all of the pictures have disappeared from the thread, so I have never seen them. The closest pictures I can find are of Harley Davidson tubs, as Robert said, although there are some differences in the shape, the front of mine is a bit narrower and the door on mine isn't slanted. One guy at Wauseon was pretty sure that the footrest in my sidecar was made by Flexi. Also note the way the axle mounts to be adjustable to fit the wheel ruts.

So, I appreciate all the input on the sidecar. For me, until I see a picture of one that can be identified, and that looks just like mine, it's still a mystery to me. I suspect it's a Rogers frame, or maybe National, but the tub? Variation on a Harley? Rogers? National? Flexi? I don't know. The best answer for me would be Harley Davidson, because then it would be worth some money. :rolleyes:

Thanks again!

Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
08-27-2014, 10:05 AM
If anyone is interested, here is a link to a gallery of pictures of my sidecar.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Old-Sidecar/43637410_w9DZzv

Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
08-27-2014, 11:22 AM
I'm very interested in that chain. I've never heard of or seen a skip tooth drive chain on an early motorcycle. Plenty on bicycles but not motorcycles. Early chains were very thin and are impossible to find, but skip tooth?? Wow. Please advise if you find literature. Thanks, Paul Venne 1914 Excelsior Model TS.

Paul,

I took a closer look at the skip-tooth chain and sprocket. The sprocket it definitely "custom." You can see where two dogs have been brazed to it to make it fit the Indian hub. I can also see that the ID of the sprocket has been filed out to fit the hub. The master link f the chain has been soldered on. Like I said, the sprocket is way to small to work with a motor anywhere but the Bonneville salt flats. :cool:

Here are some pictures of the skip tooth chain and sprocket, and a new repop 36 tooth sprocket. The 1916 Indian parts book lists a 36 tooth and a 40 tooth.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-MBQR6ZW/0/L/2014-08-27%2010.04.05-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-2prLdZd/0/L/2014-08-27%2010.04.15-L.jpg


Kevin


.

Scott Parker
08-27-2014, 11:41 AM
This first two photos are of a reproduction Harley tub. The last two are a Rodgers car...sorry I don't the years.http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o407/39sportscout/0e754fd1-f299-4bcb-a4fa-c6bb92baaa57.jpg (http://s342.photobucket.com/user/39sportscout/media/0e754fd1-f299-4bcb-a4fa-c6bb92baaa57.jpg.html)http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o407/39sportscout/DSC01088.jpg (http://s342.photobucket.com/user/39sportscout/media/DSC01088.jpg.html)http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o407/39sportscout/DSC01114.jpg (http://s342.photobucket.com/user/39sportscout/media/DSC01114.jpg.html)http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o407/39sportscout/DSC01105.jpg (http://s342.photobucket.com/user/39sportscout/media/DSC01105.jpg.html)

Shaky Jake
08-28-2014, 07:16 PM
Thanks for the pictures Scott. I'm going to have to spend some more time figuring out that sidecar.


In spite of getting hammered with rain, Davenport has already been a success for me. I've already found most of what I was looking for. I'd post some pictures, but there's no WiFi and the pictures won't load over cell.

Get this, I found an original 1916 Indian muffler that is complete and in very good condition. How can that even still exist? I got an original oil tank with hand pump, I got my rear engine mount plates, and most of my shifter parts. I would have been satisfied to leave here with any one of those four things, but I found all four. I also found out that the front hub I've been working on is earlier than '16 and that's why it doesn't have replaceable cups. But - I found an original 1916 front hub, and and it even has one good cup in it. Other than that, I got an old tool box, the one that sits on top of the gas tank. I think it's earlier than '16 and it's pretty roached, but hey, it was only 20 bucks and I should be able to do something with it. It was the only cheap thing I bought today. That's about it other than some miscellaneous wheel and clutch parts. All in all, a good haul. Maybe more tomorrow.

I can't believe I got that muffler. I was already scheming on how I could cobble up a tractor muffler or something.

And I met a couple of guys, one from this forum and one from the Advrider forum. It's always cool to be able to put a face with the screen name.

It's time to celebrate with a bit of single malt whiskey, from the isle of Islay. :wink:


Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
10-13-2014, 10:41 AM
Sorry for the long delay between posts. I'm on the road, working. I've got to pay for this stuff somehow. Here are some of the parts I found in Davenport, IA:

The muffler:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-fLtdTKt/0/L/2014-08-28%2013.18.03-L.jpg




Here's the oil tank with the hand pump:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-5dNvBtL/0/L/2014-08-28%2017.20.41-L.jpg




This picture has the tool box in the upper left, it's pretty crusty but it was only $20. On top of the tool box is the rear fender brace I needed. Bottom left is a proper Powerplus front hub, the one on my bike is from an earlier model year. To the right of that is the shifter and associated lnkage, and on the far right are the rear engine mount plates:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-9hhcNLG/0/L/2014-08-28%2013.23.25-L.jpg




That's it for now, when I get a few minutes, I'll post some pictures of building the wheels, etc.


Kevin

.

exeric
10-13-2014, 04:56 PM
That was a good Davenport trip Kevin. I went to Davenport with a friend back in the mid 90s and he only had enough money to pay for the trip. However; he brought a PowerPlus muffler, gas tanks, and a transmission. He made enough money in the first hour he was there to buy other parts he needed, and had money when he got home. Mufflers are about as scarce as a part can be for old motorcycles. Glad you were so lucky.

Shaky Jake
10-18-2014, 02:58 PM
Backing up a little bit, here are some pictures of working on the rear wheel, before going to Davenport. The old bearing cups were pitted so I knocked them out with a piece of brass and a BFH:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-D3ZSppG/0/L/2014-08-18%2017.37.08-L.jpg




I started the new cups in with a lead mallet, so as not to ding the edges:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-WDpX2rr/0/L/2014-08-18%2017.38.55-L.jpg




Then I used the brass drift to tap them down against the shoulder:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-PXW4Ktp/0/L/2014-08-18%2017.47.08-L.jpg




They go in past flush, as you can see:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-bP3txts/0/L/2014-08-18%2017.47.32-L.jpg




I spent some time with a thread file making sure that the sprocket lock nut and the brake drum lock nut would go on smoothly. Then I cleaned everything up good, slipped the brake drum onto the splines, secured it with the lock nut, put some grease in the cups, and stuck the balls in place in the cup:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-V8PcVnP/0/L/2014-08-23%2021.07.33%20%282%29-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-X5M6x6c/0/L/2014-08-23%2020.44.47%20%285%29-L.jpg




Then I threaded the stationary cone and the brake backing plate onto the shouldered end of the hollow axle:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-BRLWLjd/0/L/2014-08-23%2021.07.19%20%285%29-L.jpg




And I slipped the hollow axle through the hub until the internal brake shoes went inside the drum:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-hHhRS5B/0/L/2014-08-23%2021.08.10%20%282%29-L.jpg




Then I flipped the wheel over, greased up the cup on the sprocket side, stuck the balls in place, and threaded the adjustable cone onto the hollow axle:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-9hV2Kzc/0/XL/2014-08-23%2021.10.01%20%282%29-XL.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-2TRjjvx/0/L/2014-08-23%2021.12.51%20%282%29-L.jpg




Cheers until next time when I'll probably talk about the rear wheel rim and spokes.

Kevin

.

Tom Lovejoy
10-19-2014, 12:29 AM
Kevin is your brake drum new? it looks perfect.

Shaky Jake
10-19-2014, 05:23 AM
Kevin is your brake drum new? it looks perfect.

Yes - I got it from Ziggy Kapuscinski

Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
10-19-2014, 10:20 AM
The tube side of the rear rim was pretty rusty, but it seemed to be structurally sound:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-kgtTSNb/0/L/2014-07-22%2020.43.47%20%282%29-L.jpg




I bead blasted the tube side and the edges of the rim, but I left the crusty old paint on the spoke side of the rim intact:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-2jnLhGm/0/L/2014-08-18%2014.10.56-L.jpg




Then I put it on the truing stand. It wasn't too bad, for a hundred year old hoop with several broken spokes:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/LhCJbb9r9KY?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



I soaked the spoke nipples up good with some Kroil so I could adjust them, and I replaced all the broken spokes with ones that I had saved from the spare wheel:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-kvMFKzB/0/L/2014-08-06%2019.15.07-L.jpg






Then I trued it up as best I could:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/f0hcyM0x7Ms?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>






After that, I primed the bare metal, rattle canned it with primer and red Rustoleum paint, and set it aside to dry. Oddly enough, the rustoleum matched the crusty old Indian paint perfectly. I should have taken a picture.



Kevin

.

fciron
10-19-2014, 11:14 AM
Shhh, don't tell people about the alternative uses of red oxide primer. I use it as part of my faux-rust finish on furniture.

Shaky Jake
10-19-2014, 12:54 PM
I had never mounted a clincher tire before this one. To be honest, I really didn't know exactly what a clincher tire was, so I had to do a little research. It turns out that clinchers differ from modern tires in that they don't have a wire in the bead. Since modern tires have a wire in the bead the bead won't stretch, so modern wheels have a drop center. When you mount a modern tire you drop the bead on one side of the tire into the drop center of the wheel, so you can pull the bead over the rim on the other side of the wheel. Since clincher tires don't have the wire bead they stretch, so you just stretch them over the rim to mount them. The rim has a hook around each side of the circumference that the tire clinches on to, after you put air in it.

The advantage of modern tires is, if you have a flat they are more likely to stay on the rim until you get stopped, because the wire in the bead holds it onto the rim. That's why they used to call them safety tires. The clincher tires need air pressure on them to keep the bead of the tire under the hook of the rim. When a clincher losses air pressure it immediately comes dismounted from the rim, and tears **** up.

There are several sites out there that talk about how mount clincher tires, for old cars and motorcycles, there's really no difference between the two as far as clincher tires go. I've mounted a lot of motorcycle tires, but all of the information that I read made it sound like it was going to be more difficult to mount the clinchers. Some people talk about putting the tire on the roof of a house on a warm day to soften it up, which seems like a good idea if you can do it. Most everybody seems to agree that you need to use some soap or tire lube, but some folks use a plastic bag between the tire and rim to help it slide on. Other than that, there are differing opinions about how to stretch the tire over the rim.

When I got around to mounting my rear tire it was fairly late in the evening and the sun was down, and I hadn't planned ahead enough to put the tire up on the roof. I felt like getting it done because I was already loading the trailer to head for the Davenport, IA swap meet, so I decided to just give it a try cold. I got out my long tire irons, and I went to the kitchen and stole some dish soap for lubricant. I sat the wheel on the concrete floor and blocked the rim up with wood so the hub wasn't touching. I dusted the inside of the rim with some talcum powder (standard practice on a tube tire). I put the tube inside the tire with a small amount of air in it so it would hold it's shape, and I slickered up the bead of the tire with the soap. Then I just lined up the valve stem with the hole in the rim and started that part of the tire over the rim first so I could pushed the valve stem through the hole. After that, it was just a matter of using my hands and my weight to stretch the tire over the rim. I found that I didn't even need the tire irons. If there was a trick to it, it was to take your time (like everything else I've ever done). Just put your weight on the tire and wait for it to stretch over the rim. It takes as long as it takes, don't try to hurry. In the end, the clinchers were easier to mount than most modern motorcycle tires, in my opinion.


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/T60tQx5-jv0?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>




Kevin

.

painterdale
10-19-2014, 04:50 PM
Kevin, great progress! I am at the point with my 17 Powerplus that I want to get some tires on it, too, so I am following your posts with great interest. The front rim is not serviceable so I have had the spokes and nipples soaking in Kroil for a few weeks (not a real ambitious project) and I am gingerly trying to break them loose. So far I have had limited success. I would like to save the spokes if possible. I assume from looking at yours and mine that the nipples are brass. Are the nipples plated originally or unplated? What kind of tire and tube did you go with? Are there sources for reproduction rims out there? Dale

Shaky Jake
10-19-2014, 05:24 PM
Kevin, great progress! I am at the point with my 17 Powerplus that I want to get some tires on it, too, so I am following your posts with great interest. The front rim is not serviceable so I have had the spokes and nipples soaking in Kroil for a few weeks (not a real ambitious project) and I am gingerly trying to break them loose. So far I have had limited success. I would like to save the spokes if possible. I assume from looking at yours and mine that the nipples are brass. Are the nipples plated originally or unplated? What kind of tire and tube did you go with? Are there sources for reproduction rims out there? Dale


Dale,

Yes, the nipples appear to be brass with nickle plating, although most of the nickle is gone from mine. I got the tire and tube from Coker, but I'm on the road and I don't have the model or part numbers with me. Likewise, I do have the name of a source for repop rims, but I don't have it with me. I'll be home in a couple of weeks and I'll try to remember to send you the info.

When I was removing and/or adjusting spokes, I found it helped to hold the spoke with a pair of pliers or vise grips right next to the nipple, while I turned the nipple with a spoke wrench. That way I could put more torque on the nipple without twisting the spokes. Sometimes it left a mark on the spoke, but at least I was able to save some of them. On a few, I took a heavy piece of steel and put it against the nipple, and then rapped on the other side of the nipple with a small hammer and that seemed to break them lose. I suppose you could try some heat too. Anyway, good luck with them. If you can't save the spokes, Ziggy sells new ones, but they're stainless steel. I'm planning to build a spare set of wheels using the SS spokes and new rims on original hubs.


Kevin

.

exeric
10-19-2014, 07:05 PM
Al McRoberts makes very accurate, and strong reproduction clincher rims. Look on page 82 of our latest club magazine. I used his rims on my 1919 Henderson and they look perfect.

painterdale
10-19-2014, 07:21 PM
Thanks, Kevin and Eric! Eric, what did you use for spokes on your Henderson? Dale

Tom Lovejoy
10-19-2014, 11:37 PM
Thanks Kevin, I too am enjoying watching your progress. Really like that brake drum, going to have to call Ziggy.

Shaky Jake
10-20-2014, 11:37 AM
Thanks Kevin, I too am enjoying watching your progress. Really like that brake drum, going to have to call Ziggy.

I can't remember for sure, but I may have bought his last one. If he makes another run of them, I'd probably buy one to put on my spare wheel.


Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
10-23-2014, 04:18 PM
The front wheel that came on my bike appears to be from an earlier model year, as it does not have replaceable bearing cups. On this one, the cups are an integral part of the hub, and they have some visible pitting. I decided to clean it up, assemble it with new balls, replace the broken spokes with old spokes from the spare rear wheel, true it up, and mount a tire on it. I will keep it as a spare wheel for the Cannonball.

Like the rear wheel, it was not too far out of true, even with the broken spokes:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Xic_A_jqDhQ?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>






This is after fixing the spokes and truing it up:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/dyeVQkLA7Dc?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>






Tires mounted on both wheels, and both wheels mounted up:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-JRjtmxK/0/L/2014-08-25%2017.45.32-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-fL6mQ7L/0/L/2014-08-26%2013.45.16%20%282%29-L.jpg




I now also have a proper 1916 front hub, that I will eventually build up with new spokes and rim to be used as my primary front wheel. I'll post on that some other time.




Kevin

.

pisten-bully
10-23-2014, 04:29 PM
Like what you're doing Kevin! Keep on posting your updates, they're good reading and just like when I was a kid, lot's of pictures!

exeric
10-23-2014, 05:46 PM
Thanks, Kevin and Eric! Eric, what did you use for spokes on your Henderson? Dale

I'm sorry Dale, I just saw your post. I got my spokes and nipples from Mike Smith but I don't think his sons are still carrying that line. Early nipples are different than what you can get from Buchannan's. Early nipples usually have 2 flats, whereas, modern nipples have 4 flats. I think there is an ebay source for an accurate reproduction of the early nipples. The early spokes are also different from the modern reproduction but I don't think it is easy to spot. The nipples are the item that stands out. Regardless, I think AMCA judging looks at the best available reproduction, but safety is the first consideration. Even if it's a low speed, neighborhood runner.

Shaky Jake
10-24-2014, 09:59 AM
Like what you're doing Kevin! Keep on posting your updates, they're good reading and just like when I was a kid, lot's of pictures!

Thanks PB. You know what they say about pictures. A thousand words and all that.

Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
10-24-2014, 10:00 AM
At this point I haven't decided to restore the tin work with new paint and stuff, but I did decide to tap the deeper dents and bends out. Here is a before picture of the rear fender. The sheen is just from a generous coat of Strongarm preservative, it's not clear coated or anything:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-vT8fZ5g/0/L/2014-08-10%2015.01.07-L.jpg





My dad had given me a set of real body tools; hamers, hand held anvils, etc., so I decided to put them to use. After an hour or so of tapping away, the fender is still pretty crispy but it looks better, fits better, and is generally a lot straighter:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-bFfcD66/0/L/2014-08-24%2017.06.21-L.jpg






The bolts that the fender was mounted with were all over the place as far as size and length, so I decided to fabricate some matching ones. As I mentioned earlier you can't get 1/4 - 24 bolts in very many sizes, so I took some long shanked 14 - 20 bolts cut them off, and tapped them 24 tpi:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-92HvHjb/0/L/2014-08-24%2014.12.57-L.jpg






I put the bolts in the lathe and cut the SAE markings off of the bolt heads, so they would look period correct. Eventually I'll have them nickel plated. It all mounted up nicely:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-6BsW9Jh/0/L/2014-08-26%2014.49.56-L.jpg




Kevin

.

exeric
10-24-2014, 10:43 AM
I love what you're doing Kevin, and your documentation of the project is thorough, and very detailed. Your photographs are excellent as well, and plentiful. Just for what it's worth, Indian fasteners had a taller head than modern fasteners. I make all the nuts and bolts on my early bikes because hardware store fasteners are just not close enough. The Machinist's Handbook has the dimension for 'Heavy' bolts and nuts, but since most m/c manufacturers had their own automatic screw machines, they made their fasteners subtlety distinctive. I buy hex stock from a metal supply company and single point the threads on the bolts, and lathe tap the nuts. I also use Casite to case harden fasteners that need that treatment. Finally, Indian fasteners were nickel plated, and no other finish was used to my knowledge.

exeric
10-24-2014, 10:52 AM
I should add that I do use modern Grade 8 fasteners in applications where safety is critical. In particular, the 4 bolts that clamp the leaf spring assembly to the rigid fork.

Shaky Jake
10-24-2014, 11:23 AM
That about catches me up to date, as far as where I'm at with the Indian. I'll get back to it in a couple of weeks, when I get home from North Carolina. I've worked the last 45 days straight (13 hour days) but it looks like I'm going to have a couple days off this weekend. Maggie Valley is less then 3 hours from here, so I'm planning to make a run down there to the motorsickle museum. I'll try to remember to get some pictures to post. Other items on the list this weekend include drinking, sleeping, drinking, and sleeping in. And then I'll have a beer and take a nap. TGIFF,

Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
11-16-2014, 04:25 PM
I'm back from two months of working 13 hours days in NC. I did get one Saturday off in the middle though. And, somehow, to my wife's amazement, I did manage to do some cyber-picking while I was gone. Here's what my den looked like when I got home:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-LGqfQ7G/0/L/2014-11-11%2007.18.10-L.jpg





As anxious as I was to get home and see my wife, and to get back to work on the Indian, I decided to stay an extra day in NC and drive down to Maggie Valley and visit the Wheels Through Time museum. Maggie Valley is near Cherokee, and the southern end of the Blue ridge Parkway. It's a definite must-do if you are in the area. I feel I owe it to you all to share some pictures, so here goes.

One of the first things I saw was this sign, which made me feel right at home. Those of you who know Omaha know that the area where the track was is now the middle of the city. Ramer Motors was a major M/C dealer in Omaha up into the current century. I'm not sure if it was the same family?

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-Mm93cW2/0/L/2014-11-09%2010.50.37%20%283%29-L.jpg





Wheels Through Time is a homey place, that kind of makes you feel welcome:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-gkK655s/0/L/2014-11-09%2010.53.09%20%283%29-L.jpg




If you like old bikes, this is the place for you (they have some cars too). This has got to be one of the earliest long distance adventure bikes, with the camel back tank and the torpedo tank:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-H5ZhVzx/0/L/2014-11-09%2010.53.46%20%283%29-L.jpg




This HD sidecar rig is pretty much the definition of a 'Survivor:'

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-RtDwPFw/1/L/2014-11-09%2010.55.46%20%284%29-L.jpg




Another sidecar rig. Streamlined and tastefully customized in the day. Note the old bobber trick of moving the front fender to the back:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-kv3GfRv/0/L/2014-11-09%2011.02.14%20%283%29-L.jpg





That's a start to it. I've got about 30 more pictures from the museum, including the two rarest motorcycles in the USA, so if nobody objects I'll probably post them up. I might even share a video of Dale lighting a fire in some of the old iron.

Stay tuned.


Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
11-16-2014, 11:31 PM
Here's some more from the Wheels Through Time museum.
An early Indian racer with open exhaust and a custom front damper:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-CjZsrG2/0/L/2014-11-09%2011.03.26%20%283%29-L.jpg


http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-7mjctBn/0/L/2014-11-09%2011.03.33%20%283%29-L.jpg


http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-2JNjpW4/0/L/2014-11-09%2011.04.00%20%283%29-L.jpg




This is Andy, one of the museum employees. He told us the story of the 1916 Traub, a one of a kind motorcycle that many people think is the rarest motorcycle in the country. If you haven't heard the story you should google it, it's a good one.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-ZmW7kGQ/0/L/2014-11-09%2011.11.48%20%282%29-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-W3vLrXB/0/L/2014-11-09%2011.21.15%20%282%29-L.jpg




According to Andy, however, Dale (the museum owner) thinks this 1913 Indian prototype is more rare than the Traub:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-F7FBDLP/0/L/2014-11-09%2011.37.36%20%282%29-L.jpg


It used two single cylinder magnetos, driven by a chain rather than gears:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-VS4N7W7/0/L/2014-11-09%2012.37.47-L.jpg


It appears to have a reserve fuel valve, as well as hard piped primers rather than priming cups:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-WBkmT7W/0/L/2014-11-09%2012.38.12-L.jpg


I thought it was interesting that the stops on the 1913 prototype rear stand are similar to the 1917 and newer style stands. Also visible in this picture are leather straps that hold the rubber bump stops in place. Most old Indians that I see seem to have baling wire holding them on, and some (like the racer above) have a little metal tab held on by one of the bolts. I'm not sure what they originally came with.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-Q55f6vs/0/L/2014-11-09%2012.38.50-L.jpg


I also thought it was interesting that this 1913 prototype has the front fender safety strap that, I thought, Indian didn't start using until about 1917. In the next picture you can see the strap goes through the loop of the spring, so if the rear tabs that hold the front part of the fender on break, it can't drop down and lock the front tire up.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-tRxWwJP/0/L/2014-11-09%2012.41.16-L.jpg




more to come...


Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
11-17-2014, 10:17 AM
Here are some more pictures from my visit to the Wheels Through Time museum:


Everybody loves a knuck! I call this picture Knucklehead corner:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-VsLPVmq/0/L/2014-11-09%2011.42.16-L.jpg




A Henderson four survivor:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-PjQ3ZqW/0/L/2014-11-09%2011.47.21-L.jpg



This Ace four is just a beautiful, sleek machine, regardless of when it was made.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-Bd2SD3h/1/L/2014-11-09%2011.48.49-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-kqQMwJn/0/L/2014-11-09%2012.14.11-L.jpg

Dale started it up for us, it sounds as lovely as it looks. Here's a quick video. It's short, so listen fast.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/FN77_7sQ9xs?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>




This '09 Reading Standard is another exceptionally beautiful machine. It makes you wonder why they cover the machinery up on modern motorcycles, rather than celebrating the basic aesthetics inherent in the mechanisms.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-7bGCjsT/0/L/2014-11-09%2011.49.41-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-rjRSWS5/1/L/2014-11-09%2011.50.13-L.jpg




The Crocker was another fundamentally attractive conveyance, in a "form follows function" kind of way.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-nXKG9jT/0/L/2014-11-09%2011.50.46-L.jpg




An Indian Single. I believe the big red thing is a battery pack:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-mF2C6ck/0/XL/2014-11-09%2011.55.01-XL.jpg




This is Dale's Cannonball bike:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-jXpZrnT/0/L/2014-11-09%2011.56.20-L.jpg




I've got a few more, I'll post them up later.


Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
11-18-2014, 08:31 AM
One of the great things about the Wheels Through Time museum is that everything runs. The whole time I was there, Dale the owner was running around starting up old bikes and cars. He was having a blast starting bikes and talking to the crowd, and I was having fun watching him.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-vHRdtG7/0/L/2014-11-09%2012.05.35-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-hhjvNCB/0/L/2014-11-09%2012.11.23-L.jpg






A pair of Hendersons. The second one had been set up for a cross country ride some years ago:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-rRDSX86/0/L/2014-11-09%2012.15.49-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-D5j9xSk/0/L/2014-11-09%2012.16.30-L.jpg






A Thor with a chair:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-gF8PScm/0/L/2014-11-09%2012.47.06-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-LWk9Jts/1/L/2014-11-09%2012.47.40-L.jpg






They had a large hillclimber display:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-99SD7GQ/0/L/2014-11-09%2012.50.14-L.jpg






That was only a fraction of what they had at the Wheels Through Time Museum. If you're ever in the area, I definitely recommend it. Like I said, it's near the south end of the BRP, so it would be a great place to visit when you're on a Parkway ride. They had a push-pin map for all the guests, mines the black one:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Wheels-Thru-Time-Museum-2014/i-MSShmxM/0/L/2014-11-09%2011.58.14-L.jpg


Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
11-18-2014, 01:57 PM
'nuffa that. On to this:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-zw75smT/0/L/2014-11-17%2017.05.15%20%282%29-L.jpg






When the previous owner began disassembly, he discovered that one lifter (front cylinder intake) and the timing gear on the crankshaft were both frozen in place:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-vPRGVm3/0/L/2014-11-17%2017.05.28%20%282%29-L.jpg






With something this old, any persuasion you use has to lean towards the gentle side. I soaked the lifter with Kroil and tapped on it with a piece of brass and my smallest hammer.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-23VRBv9/0/L/2014-11-17%2017.12.41%20%282%29-L.jpg






I got lucky on that one, but I think the timing gear is going to be a little more difficult:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-wWwPx7r/0/L/2014-11-17%2017.12.58%20%282%29-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-Sx8Zht8/0/L/2014-11-17%2017.14.10%20%282%29-L.jpg



Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
11-20-2014, 11:59 AM
I figured it'd be best to take the pistons off of the ends of the connecting rods before they rattle around and get damaged while I'm working on the rest of the engine. The wrist pins are held in place by a cotter pin, as well as having a light press fit into the piston. As you can see, one of the cotter pins is a nicely machined piece, while the other was a typical old cotter pin like you get at the tractor supply store. I assume the nice one is original, and the other is a replacement. The parts book calls it a "piston cross head pin dowel pin."

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-d6tR5pR/0/L/2014-11-20%2009.59.26-L.jpg






In this picture you can see the hole in the piston boss that the cotter goes through:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-JWfPqhz/0/L/2015-02-12%2010.00.29-L.jpg






The small end of the rods has a bronze bushing:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-BqH4LrG/0/L/2015-02-12%2010.20.56-L.jpg






I haven't taken measurements yet, but you can see that at least one of the wrist pins is oversized:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-Zq7bXHw/0/L/2015-02-12%2010.01.52-L.jpg






Now that that's out of the way, back to getting that timing gear off of the crankshaft. For the last few days I've been designing a custom puller in my head, while soaking the gear in Kroil. The problem is, any way you do it, the only thing you can grip with a puller is the teeth of the gear, and you can only get behind about half of them at that. I was afraid of breaking the gear, and I don't have a spare. So, I decided to go with some judicious application of heat, and firm raps with a hammer on a piece of brass. In the end, it paid off and the gear remained intact:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-gGh4mjX/0/L/2014-11-20%2009.41.57-L.jpg

:cool:





Kevin

.

exeric
11-20-2014, 01:26 PM
I'm loving your thread Kevin. Coincidently, I'm building the motor for my 1916 H-D J at this very time. It's funny how similar the motors are, but then why re-invent the wheel. I'm sure all manufacturers of the day did a lot of pathological work on their competitors products.

http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee341/cdo340/40eb2dd6-9c00-445d-9092-2310286d0d74_zps8b0d4ff4.jpg (http://s534.photobucket.com/user/cdo340/media/40eb2dd6-9c00-445d-9092-2310286d0d74_zps8b0d4ff4.jpg.html)

You can see H-D used the same wrist pin retaining method. I made new pins with a tighter fit.

http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee341/cdo340/moj_zps2f8eb091.jpg (http://s534.photobucket.com/user/cdo340/media/moj_zps2f8eb091.jpg.html)

I made this fixture to get the pinion gear off.

http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee341/cdo340/mok_zpsde765ec2.jpg (http://s534.photobucket.com/user/cdo340/media/mok_zpsde765ec2.jpg.html)

Shaky Jake
11-21-2014, 07:10 AM
Thanks Eric. You're right, it looks like HD and Indian used similar piston designs. Maybe they even subcontracted the same company to cast and machine them.

As you can see in this picture, a puller like yours wouldn't work on my timing gear, because most of the gear is shrouded by the case. You only have access maybe 100 degrees around the outside of the gear, so the puller has to be narrow enough to slide in from one side. I've seen pullers like that made, but they have a tendency to want to bend.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-fmGSLCp/0/L/2014-11-17%2017.59.49%20%282%29-L.jpg




Nice job on the J, by the way. Are you posting a build thread? I'd love to see more.



Kevin

.

exeric
11-21-2014, 08:37 AM
Thanks Kevin, I might do a build thread on the '16J, but I've only given myself till the end of November to work on the J. I interrupted work on my '17 Henderson to play with the Harley because I needed a break. I hope to get back to it soon, but there is a long list of neglected projects in front of it. Meanwhile, I'll be enjoying the work you are doing. I have to say that I have a great deal of respect for you because you are doing so much of your own work, and documenting it so well. That is what makes our great hobby such a journey of discovery for both motorcycle history, and self discovery.

Shaky Jake
11-25-2014, 05:04 AM
The 1916 Indian, having a total loss oil system, doesn't have a recirculating oil pump like a modern motorcycle. It does have what the parts catalog calls an "automatic oiler." As the few ounces of oil in the crankcase are lost through the vent, past the rings, past the seals, or through leakage, the automatic oiler pumps oil from the oil tank to the crankcase to maintain the proper level. It has an adjustment so that it can be tuned to accommodate the oil usage of the particular engine, which can vary with age, power level, duty cycle, etc. If the engine is being used at a higher than normal power level, for example if a passenger is being carried, or if a sidecar is attached, or for sustained high speeds, the quantity of oil supplied by the automatic oiler might not be sufficient, so a manual oiler is mounted to the side of the oil tank so that the rider can occasionally provide an additional squirt of oil to the crankcase when needed. The automatic oiler is located on the right hand side of the engine under the timing cover, and is driven by a worm gear on the inboard end of the timing gear, which is pressed onto the crankshaft:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-zzFQShh/0/L/2014-11-17%2017.18.07%20%282%29-L.jpg






In the previous picture you can see that I had removed three threaded caps, one on each end of the oiler assembly, and one on the bottom. The small screw, I assume, is for bleeding the air out to prime the oiler. Behind the forward cap there is a slotted adjustment, which is used to adjust how much oil is delivered with each stroke:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-TChdPkQ/0/L/2014-11-17%2017.19.01%20%282%29-L.jpg






Here you can see the automatic oiler piston and cross-head removed from the unit. The lock screw for the adjustment is out. Mine was set at 3 1/2 turns in from when the threads started engaging the cross-head. I suppose I'll use that as my starting point when I reassemble the engine.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-bbwJNfv/0/L/2014-11-17%2017.24.48%20%282%29-L.jpg






Here you can see the fittings removed from the outlet of the automatic oiler, and the inlet fitting is still in place:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-fmGSLCp/0/L/2014-11-17%2017.59.49%20%282%29-L.jpg






It's hard to see, but the outlet fitting was nearly plugged with crud:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-cr2xBhf/0/L/2014-11-17%2018.00.05%20%282%29-L.jpg






Here you can see the worm gear that drives the automatic oiler, as well as the timing gear, once I finally got it off of the crankshaft:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-Tb7F2Xt/0/L/2014-11-25%2003.07.12-L.jpg






Here you can see the bronze auto-oiler cylinder, and it's lock-nut, removed from the engine case:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-DKVLGvH/0/L/2014-11-24%2020.07.07-L.jpg






You can see the little slots in the cylinder that act as the inlet ports:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-3M5GX9W/0/L/2014-11-24%2020.07.31-L.jpg






There was also a bit of sludge n the cavity where the auto-oiler cylinder threads in:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-4gg4c5J/0/L/2014-11-24%2020.08.06-L.jpg






More about the automatic oiler in a minute.....



Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
11-25-2014, 05:34 AM
In order to remove the automatic oiler drive gear from the engine case, you have to un-thread its lower bushing. Theis required a special tool to be made. I started with a clutch tool for old Japanese dirt bikes that looked like this:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-rz3q3Ls/0/L/2014-11-24%2020.27.39-L.jpg






And I filed on it until it looked like this:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-JNj6SMJ/0/L/2014-11-24%2021.09.42-L.jpg






It fits into the lower bushing like so:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-sr4NZZN/0/L/2014-11-24%2020.27.52-L.jpg






And the lower bushing and drive gear come out like so:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-mnSQH9j/0/L/2014-11-24%2021.05.41-L.jpg






In these two pictures you can see how the cylinder, piston, cross-head, and drive gear all work together:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-5Q6tcpP/0/L/2014-11-24%2021.07.02-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-w3B4LNS/0/L/2014-11-24%2021.07.38-L.jpg






Here's a picture of the components of the sight glass assembly. There's a backing plate, the glass itself with gaskets on each side, and a retaining nut:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-gDx5BKB/0/L/2014-11-24%2021.14.13-L.jpg






That's all for now, I hope you found it interesting. Enjoy the day.


Kevin

.

fciron
11-25-2014, 08:21 PM
Hi Kevin,

I've been following along with interest. Thanks again for documenting this.

In the final picture the drive pin is much smaller than the slot it fits in. I believe it should have a bushing/block similiar to this one on my shaper. (The shaper also uses a crank-pin moving in a slot to achieve reciprocating motion, but the length of the stroke is adjustable.)

The use of the bronze block give a better bearing surface against both the pin and the slot. Yours will be bathed in oil so I didn't try to show the lubrication holes and slots on mine. :-)

14234

Tom Lovejoy
11-26-2014, 12:50 AM
Great thread, really enjoying this - keep it coming, great shot's. Mike Madden had a Power Plus 1918 or so at Borrego Springs road run a few years ago. He had modified it and it had a working recIrculating oil system - it was very cool.

Shaky Jake
11-26-2014, 01:56 AM
Hi Kevin,

I've been following along with interest. Thanks again for documenting this.

In the final picture the drive pin is much smaller than the slot it fits in. I believe it should have a bushing/block similiar to this one on my shaper. (The shaper also uses a crank-pin moving in a slot to achieve reciprocating motion, but the length of the stroke is adjustable.)

The use of the bronze block give a better bearing surface against both the pin and the slot. Yours will be bathed in oil so I didn't try to show the lubrication holes and slots on mine. :-)



Good eye fciron. That pin is very loose in the slot. I'm glad you brought that up; your post prompted me to go and look at the parts book. Here is a picture of the applicable pages:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-W8P8jcs/0/L/Auto%20Oiler%20Parts%20Page-L.jpg



If you look at the list on the right hand page, sixth item from the top, it lists "H2620 automatic oiler worm gear pin roller." So, rather than a bronze block like the one on your shaper, it looks like there should be a roller that fits over that pin and rolls inside the slot. Mine is apparently long gone. Unfortunately the parts book doesn't have a picture of every component, and the roller is one of the parts that isn't shown. I wonder if it should be made of hardened steel or bronze?



Glad you guys are enjoying the thread, I appreciate the responses.


Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
11-26-2014, 02:00 AM
Great thread, really enjoying this - keep it coming, great shot's. Mike Madden had a Power Plus 1918 or so at Borrego Springs road run a few years ago. He had modified it and it had a working recIrculating oil system - it was very cool.

That would probably be the smart thing to do.

If I was smart... ;)



Kevin

.

fciron
11-26-2014, 11:26 AM
My first inclination is to go with bronze, better to wear out the roller than pin or slot. Bearing bronze is quite hard and i think it should do 4,000 miles no problem.

Roller makes more sense in the oil pump application since there is relatively little force being applied. The shaper needs the extra bearing surface of the block because it is pushing against a metal cutting tool.

(Yay, I helped. :cool: )

exeric
11-26-2014, 02:57 PM
My '16 Excelsior, and Henderson oil pumps use the same roller method. I made new rollers and I agree with fciron that bearing bronze would work fine. The important thing is that it rolls freely. Needless to say, there's plenty of oil there.

Shaky Jake
11-26-2014, 07:53 PM
Bearing bronze makes sense to me too.

Thanks for the help - it's things like that that make the time spent posting worth while.



Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
12-02-2014, 07:36 AM
I don't know what these numbers stamped inside the Engine cases mean, but I thought I would record them here in case I want them later. They all match, so I assume that means that these left and right case halves and this timing cover originally came together:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-jFDDMX7/0/L/2014-11-24%2021.18.44-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-BbZvddp/0/L/2014-11-24%2021.18.35-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-MPtZLMf/0/L/2014-11-24%2021.19.19-L.jpg






Also stamped inside the left side case half is this little number 8:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-4THPZWQ/1/L/2014-11-30%2020.56.48-L.jpg






And there are two little 8's on the outside of the right side case half on the automatic oiler housing:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-hgxdH5f/0/L/2014-11-24%2021.17.28-L.jpg




Kevin

.

exeric
12-02-2014, 11:53 AM
Kevin, are you sure those matching numbers aren't 6996:) . . . You don't have to say it.

Shaky Jake
12-02-2014, 01:03 PM
I'm just glad it didn't say 666. Or 999 for that matter.

And were those 8's upside down?


Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
12-11-2014, 12:22 PM
A lot of crud can accumulate in a century. After about a week of soaking in solvent, several gentle brushings, and scrubbing in hot soapy water, here are how the engine cases look:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-3cVc8Ck/0/L/2014-12-10%2013.00.06-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-QG2wmL5/0/L/2014-12-10%2013.00.56-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-6LmQTTR/0/L/2014-12-10%2013.00.31-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-hRPbvk3/0/L/2014-12-10%2013.01.35-L.jpg




Obviously, there is a bit more cleaning left to do. I feel like an archeologist; trying to brush away the layers of dirt but save what's left of the original finish. A little more time with the toothbrush, and maybe an hour or so in the dishwasher, and I'll have it. There are a few issues with the cases that need to be addressed, I'll post some pictures of that next time.




Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
12-12-2014, 10:55 AM
So, as I said, there are some issues with the crankcase halves that need to be resolved. A lot can happen in a hundred years. Nothing unexpected, but they need to be addressed. Here are some pictures.




First, there are four mounting bosses that are broken, two on each half:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-6Vndgg4/0/L/2014-12-10%2012.49.10-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-GS9VgK6/0/L/2014-12-10%2013.02.19-L.jpg




Second, one of the mounting studs for the primary chain guard is broken off:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-52SFD9V/0/L/2014-12-10%2013.04.21-L.jpg


There are two studs, here is the unbroken one:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-CrfCk3S/0/L/2014-12-10%2013.04.14-L.jpg


They are pressed in from the inside:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-6kcCQ82/0/L/2014-12-10%2013.04.31-L.jpg






Third, it looks like the magneto gear came loose at one time and wallowed out the aluminum around the hole where the magneto shaft passes through:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-RMjq8gM/0/L/2014-12-10%2012.48.21-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-rtcnR7c/0/L/2014-12-10%2012.47.55-L.jpg






And finally, one of the cylinder hold-down studs is stripped:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-4kmMVt7/0/L/2014-12-10%2013.02.34-L.jpg






The cylinder studs are available from Walker Machine, so I've ordered a set. I've taken the cases to a competent machinist/welder who has done some work for me in the past, to repair the broken mounting bosses. On the ones where a large part is missing, he'll fabricate a piece to weld on, and on the other ones he'll just build it up and re-machine. Depending on how well the old aluminum welds, we may also weld repair the hole where the magneto shaft passes through. It's very thin there, so if welding doesn't work out, I'll figure out another solution. On the broken primary cover stud, I haven't been able to find a replacement to press in, so we'll either fabricate a new one, or repair the old one by drilling through and attaching a new threaded piece by welding it on from the back side.


Next I'll start working on the crankshaft and cylinders. I'm currently gathering parts to rebuild the crankshaft, and I haven't done anything with the cylinders yet. For now, I'm a little uncomfortable that my crankcase halves are in someone else's shop. But I know Joe will do a good job. Sometimes you have to call in a specialist.




Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
12-14-2014, 10:45 PM
I like to avoid changing the solvent in the parts washer in the middle of a project, for fear that I may have dropped some small but crucial part into the solvent, that would then get recycled and I would never know it until I need it. But, 100 years worth of crud generated an excess of gunk, so I changed the solvent today.


After that minor task was complete, I decided to see if my old Craftsman valve spring compressor (that I got in about 1975) would pop the keepers lose on those crusty old valves. I started with the rear cylinder, since the threaded valve covers had already been removed:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-FnwJZPW/0/L/2014-12-14%2019.30.28-L.jpg






And sure enough, the intake valve keepers popped loose and everything came apart easy:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-JmstHxW/0/L/2014-12-14%2019.33.14-L.jpg






Then the exhaust valve. The keepers came easy, and the upper dust cover came off easy, but when I removed the perforated sleeve, the top half of the valve guide came with it. It was cracked in two, flush with the cylinder casting:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-N8Dd7L9/0/L/2014-12-14%2019.35.37-L.jpg






That must have made a racket when it was running. I think new (repop) guides are available, but the biggest problem is going to be removal of the rest of the guide, since they are threaded into the casting and the hex is on the part that broke off. I'll have to use some kind of an extractor. Could be hard, could be easy, time will tell.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-CpQQdhV/0/L/2014-12-14%2019.38.01-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-s3ps3Sf/0/L/2014-12-14%2019.36.48-L.jpg






The valves themselves didn't look that bad, I've seen worse. They looked to have plenty of meat left on the heads of the valves, but you never know until you re-face them, all it takes is one little pit to ruin one.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-hn5kZgH/0/L/2014-12-14%2019.37.04-L.jpg






And if the stems were badly worn you'd be able to see a ridge right were my finger tip is. These don't look too bad; the micrometer will tell after I clean them up.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-2rxvhXX/0/L/2014-12-14%2019.37.18-L.jpg






You can't tell it from the picture, but the valve seats are pretty worn. They may require inserts.

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-fhmWMLg/0/L/2014-12-14%2019.44.32-L.jpg






The threaded valve covers are pretty tight on the front cylinder, so I decided to soak them in Kroil overnight. They're a little beat up, so it's hard to get a good bite on them with the wrench. We'll se what happens.






Kevin

.

panthersteve
12-14-2014, 11:36 PM
That must have made a racket when it was running. I think new (repop) guides are available, but the biggest problem is going to be removal of the rest of the guide, since they are threaded into the casting and the hex is on the part that broke off. I'll have to use some kind of an extractor. Could be hard, could be easy, time will tell.

Kevin
.

Hi Kevin

I had a similar problem on my P&M, both guides had been damaged and there was no way I could get them unscrewed so had to drill them. As the guide bores were worn I turned up some rods that were just the right size to slide into each guide and then set the barrel up in the mill using the rod in the guide to be able to set it up on centre. Drilled them out to the core diameter of the thread and the remainder of the guide threads fell out leaving an unmolested thread in the barrel.

Cheers
Steve

Shaky Jake
12-15-2014, 09:19 AM
Hi Kevin

I had a similar problem on my P&M, both guides had been damaged and there was no way I could get them unscrewed so had to drill them. As the guide bores were worn I turned up some rods that were just the right size to slide into each guide and then set the barrel up in the mill using the rod in the guide to be able to set it up on centre. Drilled them out to the core diameter of the thread and the remainder of the guide threads fell out leaving an unmolested thread in the barrel.

Cheers
Steve


Thanks for the response, Steve. I didn't know what a P&M was, so I checked the Google-box and your video came up. Lovely restoration.

It is likely that I'll have to drill that guide out. I've had pretty good luck with left handed drill bits in the past. They tend to relieve the pressure on the threads, and usually the left hand rotation of the bit will thread it right out. I'll try an extractor first, after I clean the barrel up and soak the guide Kroil for a while. I don't like to put much force on an extractor though, because if the extractor breaks then you have a whole new problem. Don't ask me how I know! :o



Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
12-16-2014, 09:43 AM
Next, to get the valves out of the front barrel I needed a 1-9/16 inch wrench to remove the valve caps. I motored up to Blair Pawn to see if they had one. They always have a good stock of tools, and even though they didn't have a 1-9/16 wrench that day, they did have this:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-fgp33FM/0/L/2014-12-15%2017.43.04-L.jpg






I know what you're thinking, it has a hammer on it, so it's probably more of a Harley-Davidson tool. ;) Still, I gave it a go and it worked for me:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-2D4TPBJ/0/L/2014-12-15%2017.43.38-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-rJR43KX/0/L/2014-12-15%2017.47.41-L.jpg






And out came the valves. Their condition was similar to the valves in the rear barrel, the only difference being that the spring on the exhaust valve had been replaced with two pieces of shorter springs:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-QhkhbX4/0/L/2014-12-15%2017.55.43-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-3Dprphz/0/L/2014-12-15%2017.58.35-L.jpg




Kevin

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Shaky Jake
12-19-2014, 09:33 AM
Nothing new to report today, I've just been cleaning old parts, looking for new parts, fixing toilets in the house, and moving dirt around in the yard. I just got a copy of Victor Page's book "Early Motorcycles, Construction, Operation, and Repair." What a great resource. I had heard about this one before, but never got around to ordering a copy. It's a reprint of the 1924 revision of a book that was first published in 1914. It's fairly detailed and technical, discussing everything from frame and sidecar design to design and maintenance of engines, ignitions, carburetors, wheels, and tires. It's basically a maintenance manual for early motorcycles. There's even a chapter called "Complete Instructions for Overhauling Engine." If your looking for a Christmas gift for a an old iron junky, this would be a good one. Sorry, I already have my copy, so you'll have to think of something else for me. It even has lots of pictures, you know, for the Harley guys. :rolleyes:




Kevin

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Shaky Jake
12-30-2014, 09:35 PM
I thought I ought to throw a few words up, since it's been a while. I hope everyone had a blessed, safe, and happy Christmas. It's been pretty busy around here, and I've not had as much time as I'd like to work on the bike, but I've been blessed to have a lot of time with my family. We hosted Christmas dinner at our house this year, mom has been fighting cancer and just isn't up to it anymore. On top of that, my wife turned fifty (I know, I'm a cradle robber) and I'm putting together a celebration for that. Also, whenever the weather has been nice enough, I've felt like going outside and cutting Jeep / Dirt Bike trails in the woods rather than hanging out in the shop. And I've been knocking some trees down and moving dirt around so I can put in a new storage shed. No complaints, but circumstances have conspired to keep me from working on the Indian much.

All that aside, I have found a little time to fiddle with the Indian. The good news in that the welder called today and my cases are done. I'm looking forward to picking them up tomorrow. And I've talked to a local metal-plater about nickel plating some parts for me, and I'm feeling OK about that. It might just be me, but I've spent so much time and effort finding these parts that I'm a little nervous about dropping them off somewhere and walking away. This guy seems trustworthy though.

I've been spending quite a bit of time looking for pistons. There aren't any. If I'm wrong, please let me know. I have four viable original pistons, with little wear. All four are standard size. My cylinders have about 0.008 to 0.009+ inches taper in them. The engine would run with that for a while, but I don't want to leave them that way for the cannonball. So that leaves me a couple of options; find oversized original or repop Indian pistons and bore the cylinders to fit, sleeve the cylinders to fit the standard pistons that I have, or find new pistons from another vehicle that are commercially available and can be made to fit. I've contacted all of the Indian parts reproducers that I know and asked about pistons, and nobody is reproducing them right now. One guy says that he may make a small batch next year, and one guy says he may make some rings in January. Again, if you know of anybody, please let me know, but for now anyway it doesn't seem like I'm going to be able to obtain original or reproduction Indian pistons, at least in the short term. Sleeving back to standard bore seems like a potentially good option, so I'm going to explore that further. And tomorrow I'm going to start looking around for pistons from other vehicles, by size. The bore is 3 1/8 inch, the wrist pin centerline is 1.5 inches from the crown of the piston. The wrist pins are 5/8 inch diameter, but bushings could be made to accommodate anything close to that. If you know of anything like that, sing out.

For rebuilding my crankshaft, I've gotten new taper shafts, crankpin, new lock washers, and almost enough new nuts from Walker Machine. I'm having trouble finding bearing rollers and bearing retainers though. The ones that are available are larger than mine. So the search for bearings goes on. I'll post some pictures when I get a chance.

One thing that I haven't started on yet are the cam followers and lifters. Some of the followers had been worn enough that someone in the distant past brazed them to build them up. Again, I'll post some pictures when I get a chance. I need to find someone who can hard-face them and re-grind them for me. I know there are people out there who do that, if you have any recommendations please speak up.

Another good thing is that I emailed Lonnie Isam, the organizer of the Cannonball, about my intentions, and he said he would put me on the list for 2016. They've announced that it's going to be 1916 and older bikes only, and they're going to pick a route that is more suitable for 40 mph machines with small brakes. That makes me happy.

That's all for now, I wish you and yours all the best in the coming year.


Kevin

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kneesinthebreeze
12-30-2014, 10:52 PM
Hello Kevin. I just recently discovered your excellent documentation here and want to thank you for your diligence and consideration in sharing your work. I have learned a lot from what I've seen so far of your build-blog.
I also am building a 1916 PowerPlus for MC-CB 2016 and am looking for some chassis/controls/hubs/oil tank components.
I'd be pleased to talk with you sometime. In meanwhile, Ill try to add some value with a contribution or two of my own.
Best wishes for a wonderful New Year.
Brad
1916 PowerPlus
1941 'Four / sidecar
1940 Chief
1952 Velocette
2004 R1150RT

kneesinthebreeze
12-30-2014, 11:06 PM
Hi Kevin,
Have you asked R Walker about Ford Flathead pistons ?

kneesinthebreeze
12-31-2014, 09:31 AM
Hello Kevin. Once again, thank you for sharing your discoveries and thoughts. Several points you raise may be common knowledge for some, not for me.
In German it is said: "leider, sind wir zu fruh alt, und zu spaet klug" - "unfortunately, we are too soon old and too late smart". Your posts are practical & motivating. I'm making some progress. Brad.

Shaky Jake
12-31-2014, 09:39 AM
Hi Kevin,
Have you asked R Walker about Ford Flathead pistons ?

No I haven't, but after reading your post I looked at some flathead Ford specs, and you may have something there. I don't know who R Walker is, do you have contact information or a website?

As far as chassis parts and controls, Ziggy Kapuscinski has been a good source for me. He may have some repop hubs too, or know where to get them. For things like new wheel bearings, cups, and cones, I've gotten most of mine from Walker Machine. Also Matt Smith in Oregon is reproducing some stuff and sells it on ebay (boardtracker) and at swap meets. There are a few other parts sources, I could probably compile a list of what I know if you need it. The '16 and later wheel hubs have replaceable cups, sometimes you can find the hubs used. Either way, they're expensive. I think hubs from a Harley Davidson J could be possibly made to work. I got my oil tank used at a swap meet. The AMCA swap meets that have been good for me are Wauseon OH and Davenport, IA. I usually go to the one in St. Paul, MN too. I've heard that Oley PA, Dixon CA, Denton NC, and Rhinebeck NY are good, but I haven't made it to them due to work or other conflicts. I like to go to the AMA swap meet in Lexington, OH too, just because it's fun, but I've never found any Indian parts there. I hope that helps, if you need any contact info or anything let me know.


Kevin

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kneesinthebreeze
12-31-2014, 05:57 PM
Hi Kevin
Thank you. by R Walker I meant Randy Walker. I believe he mentioned the usability of Ford Flathead pistons for
several Hendee/PowerPlus applications, but I don't have any specifics. If you email him, he may be able to clarify.
I have gotten some parts from Walker Machine and will be buying some items from Ziggy in CA, and visiting the several of the swapmeets you mentioned. Ill try to email you a list of the items i am seeking. Thanks and wishing you a blessed NEW Year !
Brad

Shaky Jake
01-01-2015, 08:08 AM
I emailed Randy about pistons a while back, but he didn't offer any info, he just said he didn't have any. I think he stays pretty busy with the farm, so you have to email Jen with questions then she asks him, and sometimes something gets lost in the translation. I'm not complaining, it's better since Jen has been working there because before it would take weeks just to get a reply.

I'm definitely going to look into the Ford flathead thing though, it looks like the early flathead V8's had a 3 1/16 inch bore, but from what I can tell people overbore them as much as 1/8 inch, so pistons should be available in the bore size range that I'm looking for. The wrist pin height, or "compression distance" seems to vary from a little under 1.5 inches to a little over 1.5 inches on the aftermarket flathead pistons, I suppose depending on what compression ratio, combustion chamber volume, stroke, rod length, etc. that you're using. I guess I need to find a flathead Ford forum somewhere that can help me figure this out. One of my concerns though, is the weight difference between the cast iron pistons that came in the Powerplus, and the aluminum pistons that people are selling for the Fords. I didn't really want to do a bunch of balance modifications on my flywheels. We'll see what happens.

The other thing that I'm working on right now is roller bearings for the crankshaft. The one's that Randy Walker sent don't fit, they're too long. I found a local machinist that's done some old Harley Davidsons and he thinks he might be able to find me new rollers by size, so I'm planning to take some of my old ones over there on Friday to see if he can match them up with something. If it was easy, everybody would be doing it I guess.


It should be an interesting new year.



Kevin

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Tom Lovejoy
01-01-2015, 10:08 PM
I have been told vw pistons will work well ? will ask and get back to ya

Shaky Jake
01-01-2015, 10:25 PM
I have been told vw pistons will work well ? will ask and get back to ya

Thanks Tom. That would be cool. I'll see if I can find some specs.


I've trying to post some pictures of my repaired cases, but my computer is going all Y2.015K on me or something. Maybe it will work tomorrow.



Kevin


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Shaky Jake
01-02-2015, 10:03 AM
Here are some pictures of the repairs that Joe at Joe's Machine in Omaha did on my engine cases.






The right side case used to look like this:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-6Vndgg4/0/L/2014-12-10%2012.49.10-L.jpg


He machined off the jagged part of the break, but left as much of the original boss as he could, so the repair could still bear against the original casting. Then he made some aluminum sleeves and welded them in place of the material that he machined off. Now it looks like this:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-Pjp83h9/0/L/2015-01-01%2019.39.01-1-L.jpg






The left side case used to look like this:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-GS9VgK6/0/L/2014-12-10%2013.02.19-L.jpg


And now it looks like this:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-4rmcXfV/0/L/2015-01-01%2019.37.16-L.jpg






That broken pressed in stud that used to look like this:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-52SFD9V/0/L/2014-12-10%2013.04.21-L.jpg


We decided to drill it out, tap it for 1/4 - 24, and seal weld it on the back side. Now it looks like this:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-dC3dtnL/0/L/2015-01-01%2019.39.32-L.jpg


Here is the seal weld on the back side:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-MFtRL5D/0/L/2015-01-01%2019.39.44-L.jpg






Joe has done welding and machining work for me on other bikes in the past, I've always been happy with what he's done for me. If anybody needs this kind of work done, I would recommend Joe. Here's a link to his website: http://www.joesmachineandwelding.com/






Kevin


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rbc
01-03-2015, 01:02 PM
For pistons try these folks - http://egge.com/

When I was doing my 1915 Yale they actually listed pistons for it in their 1995 catalog. There new catalog doesn't list motorcycle pistons but one of their many services is machining rough castings to your specs. I'm pretty sure a call to them could get you on the right track.

Shaky Jake
01-07-2015, 06:31 AM
For pistons try these folks - http://egge.com/

When I was doing my 1915 Yale they actually listed pistons for it in their 1995 catalog. There new catalog doesn't list motorcycle pistons but one of their many services is machining rough castings to your specs. I'm pretty sure a call to them could get you on the right track.

Thanks rbc. I'll give them a try.




Kevin


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Shaky Jake
01-07-2015, 06:33 AM
I had to post this up. I threw a birthday party for my bride last Saturday. The house was full of people, some of them had heard about the old Indian in the basement, naturally the guys all wanted to see it. So I did a tour of my little shop in the basement. One of the guys asked me how much fuel the gas tank holds, and what the range would be (good questions). He said he had this giant pocket flask that he got as a gag gift, and he was thinking it would work nicely to carry in a back pack as an emergency gas can, and would I want it. I said why not. Here's a picture:


http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-TCPnNgD/0/L/IMG_1329-L.jpg




Kevin


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c.o.
01-22-2015, 12:42 AM
I know you're going to do a good job.

Looks like I was onto something eh?

You know Kevin, it was a tough one letting that bike go. I had often threatened to a perplexed wife that I would sell my Harley before I let that Indian get away from my grip. At any rate we know how it all worked out. It took me a day or two after getting back to the forum to spend the time it would take to catch up on your thread. I mean if it was good I was not going to quit until I caught up! Good thing I planned for it cuz... Damn, you are getting at it and doing a great job too!!! Nice score on the parts!!! You make it look awful easy to scrounge early motorsickle stuff. A primo muffler? Really???? Good for you man! I can't count the times I've kicked myself after you drove away and I'm really going to kick myself when you fire it up and ride it around with that laugh that Indian riders get. Having said that I'm going to have a big ol' grin on when you get it road worthy. That bike deserved to live with you.

exeric
01-22-2015, 07:28 AM
I sure know how you feel Cory. The two most regrettable deals I've made were Indians. I still miss those bikes but I take pleasure in knowing both bikes found a good home. That does mean a lot because collectors with average incomes can't keep them all, and we have to let them go to pursue other things.

Shaky Jake
01-22-2015, 10:28 AM
Looks like I was onto something eh?

You know Kevin, it was a tough one letting that bike go. I had often threatened to a perplexed wife that I would sell my Harley before I let that Indian get away from my grip. At any rate we know how it all worked out. It took me a day or two after getting back to the forum to spend the time it would take to catch up on your thread. I mean if it was good I was not going to quit until I caught up! Good thing I planned for it cuz... Damn, you are getting at it and doing a great job too!!! Nice score on the parts!!! You make it look awful easy to scrounge early motorsickle stuff. A primo muffler? Really???? Good for you man! I can't count the times I've kicked myself after you drove away and I'm really going to kick myself when you fire it up and ride it around with that laugh that Indian riders get. Having said that I'm going to have a big ol' grin on when you get it road worthy. That bike deserved to live with you.


Well it sure is good to hear from you Cory. If I ever have to let her go myself, I'll give you first dibbs. It's been quite a journey for me, being the steward of this piece of antiquity that you discovered. I'm a little behind on my posts, but I've tried to share that experience in this forum, not just keep it to myself.



Kevin


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c.o.
01-22-2015, 11:37 PM
I sure know how you feel Cory. The two most regrettable deals I've made were Indians. I still miss those bikes but I take pleasure in knowing both bikes found a good home. That does mean a lot because collectors with average incomes can't keep them all, and we have to let them go to pursue other things.

You nailed it Eric. I had a few interested parties when I decided to sell. I got a good vibe from Kevin and I knew that he was going to follow through with what he said he was going to do. That was the primary reason that it went home with him.


Well it sure is good to hear from you Cory. If I ever have to let her go myself, I'll give you first dibbs. It's been quite a journey for me, being the steward of this piece of antiquity that you discovered. I'm a little behind on my posts, but I've tried to share that experience in this forum, not just keep it to myself.



Kevin


.

Thanks for the dibbs thing Kevin but I'm sure you'll make it a keeper and that is all good too. Some folks score early stuff left right and center so I think I'm good for at least one more....:D It's great the way you are documenting the process. I'm sure it will be referred to again and again by many an antique addict. You've shared a lot of useful information here. Keep up the good work!

Shaky Jake
01-28-2015, 12:07 AM
When I got my bike, it had the front motor mount plates with it but not the rear, so at the Davenport swap meet last Labor day I bought a set of rear motor plates from a 1916 Powerplus. They didn't fit. They fit the motor, but the hole for the frame bolt was not in the right place, it was about one hole diameter short of lining up with the hole in the frame. What's more, my frame has lugs for two bolts, but the '16 motor plates have only one hole for a frame bolt. So I looked at a few pictures on the Google box, and I found that later Powerplus rear motor plates had two frame bolts, like my frame. I located a deal on a set of the later Powerplus motor plates on a popular internet auction site, thinking I must have the later frame design. But still, the holes don't line up. Here is a picture of a 1916 Powerplus rear motor plate (left) and a '17 or later rear motor plate (right). You'll also notice that the bottom hole on the '16 plate is larger, this is to accommodate the brake pedal shaft (more on this later).

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-W78t26s/1/L/2014-12-15%2019.20.40-L.jpg




Here is a picture with the '16 rear motor plate on top of the '17 or later rear motor plate. You can see that all the holes line up, except the newer one has the extra frame bolt hole, as I mentioned:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-CSkB8w6/1/L/2014-12-15%2019.20.25-L.jpg




It was about then that I started to worry that maybe my frame had been damaged or modified in some way (a lot can happen in 99 years) and I was going to have to repair and/or un-modify it. I'd been swapping emails with Mr. Spacke2speed of the AMCA forum, and we finally figured out that I have an older frame, from a 1914 single speed Indian. Single speed because a transmission model would have had a lug on the backbone of the frame for the shifter. It all made sense now that my bike had a '14 front fender, that skip tooth chain, a '14 rear fender, and a '14 swingarm with lugs for a '14 rear stand. Matt Smith sells repop '14 motor plates on eBay, so I ordered up a set. The only thing I didn't know is whether the '14 rear plates, which are made to fit the Hedstrom motor, would also fit the Powerplus motor. If not, it just means I would have to make custom motor plates from scratch, which really wouldn't be that bad. Johnny Cash would be proud.




Long story short, the nice man from the USPS brought me the early motor plates, and the bolt holes lined up. Oh happy day. Here's a pic:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-z3FbtgP/0/L/2015-01-07%2012.37.29-L.jpg




Here's a pic with the transmission installed:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-T4q3sZn/0/L/2015-01-07%2017.02.30-L.jpg




If you look close, the rusty cap over the transmission detent, which is right between the two frame bolts, hits the new motor plate even though the transmission is not all the way forward. Here is a close-up:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-TW7mN8q/0/L/2015-01-07%2013.06.01-L.jpg




If I want to have full range of adjustment of my primary chain, I'll need to remove a little material from the motor plate. So I made some pencil marks, clamped some pieces of scrap for guides, and got out my little plasma cutter:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-XdbLBvK/0/L/2015-01-13%2017.04.06-L.jpg




After a little grinding and filing it looked pretty good:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-J5jJHzq/0/L/2015-01-13%2017.18.26-L.jpg




On a 1916 Indian Powerplus, the brake pedal shaft is one of the case bolts, so that hole is bigger. I had to drill out the lower bolt hole on the right side rear motor plate to allow that brake pedal shaft to pass through. I noticed that neither the '16 rear motor plate, nor the '14 rear motor plate had much material around the lower case bolt hole for the brake pedal shaft to bear against, so I decided to reinforce it by welding on a washer. I reamed and filed the hole in the washer for a close fit on the shaft, so that when I stomp on the brakes most of the force of my size 11's will bear on the steel of the washer and motor plate, rather than the aluminum of the motor case. I did the same thing on the left side, just for good measure. I don't want to be welding up these cases again.




Here's a picture of the washers and the motor plates clamed to the engine case, so everything is lined up properly:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-mQWGTxg/0/L/2015-01-22%2013.17.27-L.jpg




I tacked the washers in place with everything lined up, then I took the plates off of the case and securely welded the washers in place:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-4BGXmLq/0/L/2015-01-22%2015.11.30-L.jpg




A little more filing and they'll be ready for nickel plating:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-RTnMhkN/0/L/2015-01-22%2022.08.31-L.jpg




That's all for now. Next time I'll probably talk about pistons. I hope your day is going as well as mine.



Kevin


.

Shaky Jake
01-28-2015, 09:34 PM
I almost forgot to say happy National Kazoo Day!

http://www.nationalkazooday.com/



Kevin


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c.o.
01-28-2015, 10:26 PM
Wow Kevin, I guess it takes a rip down and attempting the fitment of parts to figure out what the hell a guy has eh? Damn, I always wondered about the lack of a fender skirt on the front but never did it occur to me that the chassis could be earlier. Nice job on hopping the hurdle.

Shaky Jake
01-28-2015, 10:57 PM
Wow Kevin, I guess it takes a rip down and attempting the fitment of parts to figure out what the hell a guy has eh? Damn, I always wondered about the lack of a fender skirt on the front but never did it occur to me that the chassis could be earlier. Nice job on hopping the hurdle.

A lot can happen in 99 years, can't it! Don't worry, no original Indian parts were harmed in the process. :cool:



Kevin


.

Robert Luland
01-29-2015, 06:21 AM
Nice work Kevin, I'm really enjoying following your build. Keep banging with that backyard technology, that's what it's all about. Bob L

Shaky Jake
02-06-2015, 09:25 AM
Nice work Kevin, I'm really enjoying following your build. Keep banging with that backyard technology, that's what it's all about. Bob L

Thanks Bob. I'm having fun with it. Motorcycle builds are kind of like sex. You look forward to the end because you know it's going to be good, but at the same time you don't want it to be over.



Kevin


.

Shaky Jake
02-06-2015, 09:29 AM
A question for the group concerning the teens Indians; does anyone know the size and length of the bolts that fasten the engine plates to the frame, and are they bolts with a head on one side, or studs with nuts on both sides?


Thanks!



Kevin


.

Spacke2speed
02-18-2015, 09:14 PM
Kevin
I see that nobody answered you question about the mounting hardware for the motor plate to frame.
They are fine thread doubled ended studs. They have straight plated nickel body with the end of the studs are curved and polished nickel. All the motor and frame studs are that way. The nuts are a large hex and thin, also polished nickel. I did not seen any evidence (scaring) from lock washers on any of the motor plates I use to have. I do not know the sizes, but I will look around.
Spacke2speed

Shaky Jake
02-21-2015, 03:05 PM
Kevin
I see that nobody answered you question about the mounting hardware for the motor plate to frame.
They are fine thread doubled ended studs. They have straight plated nickel body with the end of the studs are curved and polished nickel. All the motor and frame studs are that way. The nuts are a large hex and thin, also polished nickel. I did not seen any evidence (scaring) from lock washers on any of the motor plates I use to have. I do not know the sizes, but I will look around.
Spacke2speed

Thanks Spacke. That helps. From what I can tell they would have been 7/16 inch, probably 24 threads per inch. You say they were double ended studs which is good, because those are pretty easy to make. If you happen to have a nut it would help to know the wrench size and thickness of them.

Thanks again!


Kevin

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painterdale
02-21-2015, 04:34 PM
Hey Kevin! Went out and scraped some crap, I mean patina, off of mine and the nuts on the right side look to be 5/16ths thick and accepted an 11/16ths wrench. Wrench size is right. Thickness is best measurement I could get. Couldn't get to the left side. Hope it helps! Dale

Shaky Jake
02-22-2015, 08:37 AM
Hey Kevin! Went out and scraped some crap, I mean patina, off of mine and the nuts on the right side look to be 5/16ths thick and accepted an 11/16ths wrench. Wrench size is right. Thickness is best measurement I could get. Couldn't get to the left side. Hope it helps! Dale

Thanks Dale!


Kevin

.

fciron
02-23-2015, 02:38 PM
Isn't SAE fine thread 7/16-20?

What standard did Indian use?

Shaky Jake
02-23-2015, 03:33 PM
Isn't SAE fine thread 7/16-20?

What standard did Indian use?

Even though SAE was formed around 1905, it hadn't really caught on yet. Indian was using their own standard. Pretty much all of the threaded fasteners were 24 tpi.


Kevin

.

T. Cotten
02-23-2015, 04:29 PM
.. Pretty much all of the threaded fasteners were 24 tpi.... And the same for H-D for many years,

Since different thread pitches were a matter of swapping gears on an engine lathe, it was easiest to pick just one and leave them.

24 falls in the middle between most "coarse" and "fine" pitches.

....Cotten

Robert Luland
02-23-2015, 04:38 PM
Kevin, I make a whole lot of hardware. 90 percent of every fastener I make for a 1930 and down Harley is 24tpi. I have a theory on this but I could be wrong or I could be right. Back in the day they didn't have quick change lathes or screw machines if that's what you would like to call them. Harley and Indian had banks of these lined up. It could take a machinist a good part of a day to change a thread on just one machine. So, why change them? Just make everything in the place 24tpi. I just opened up a 1915 muffler and the thread on the end of the baffle is 1.375-24. I rest my case. Bob L
Sorry about that. Tom posted while I was pecking.

exeric
02-23-2015, 05:16 PM
Also, weird thread pitches kept that stuff in-house so you had to go through the factory to get parts.

Rubone
02-23-2015, 06:26 PM
For many years almost all the fasteners on Brit stuff was 26TPI and was called BSC threads or British Standard Cycle, different from other British sizing. A simple, compromise thread that worked for most applications.

Robert Luland
02-23-2015, 07:34 PM
Also, weird thread pitches kept that stuff in-house so you had to go through the factory to get parts.

Eric the word your looking for Propriety and Harley Davidson was very good at this game. I'm convinced that the factory had four engineers minimum to make sure it stayed that way. Sure Indian was using 24tpi but the factory was damm well bent that you couldn't use them. Neck thread, quill thread and axle thread deliberately undersized as well as gas tank and other screws. Standard flare 37 degrees? Not Harley 29 degrees. Bob L

fciron
02-25-2015, 05:29 PM
Well, there we go. Live and learn. Thank you.

Captk
02-26-2015, 08:09 AM
Sounds right to me. Nearly everything on my Thor is 24tpi, from under 1/4" to over 2" Makes sense that threading on the older engine lathes would be as you say, a big job to change pitch.

exeric
02-26-2015, 08:39 AM
Quick change gearboxes on lathes go way back into the 19th century, as does thread rolling. I don't thing that was an issue from a manufacturing point of view, but proprietary spare parts has always been a big money maker for every manufacturer. In manufacturing, the engineers have their world, and the accountants have theirs, and never shall the twain meet.

fillibuster
02-26-2015, 02:35 PM
[QUOTE=exeric;146865]Quick change gearboxes on lathes go way back into the 19th century, as does thread rolling. I don't thing that was an issue from a manufacturing point of view, but proprietary spare parts has always been a big money maker for every manufacturer. In manufacturing, the engineers have their world, and the accountants have theirs, and never shall the twain meet.[/QUOTE

"lathes" ..... I like the little South Bend, just like the one I sold to a friend after I got my 14". Made a lot of little things on it, taper shafts even, threading, etc. Brings a smile to see another doing it's thing!

Robert Luland
02-26-2015, 04:55 PM
Quick change gearboxes on lathes go way back into the 19th century, as does thread rolling. I don't thing that was an issue from a manufacturing point of view, but proprietary spare parts has always been a big money maker for every manufacturer. In manufacturing, the engineers have their world, and the accountants have theirs, and never shall the twain meet.

Eric, I have factory pictures of those banks of machines and they weren't the deluxe models. They were the cheap end. Labor was cheap. Bob L

fciron
02-26-2015, 09:14 PM
I've owned change gear lathes and worked on screw machines. Changing thread gears is a matter of minutes for thread pitch on a lathe and only a minor part of a screw machine set up. I'm more inclined to believe the proprietary parts logic than the time savings.

Shaky Jake
02-27-2015, 08:18 AM
Here's a paragraph that I copied from the sae.org website:

"By 1916 the Society of Automobile Engineers membership had grown to 1,800. At the annual meeting that year representatives from the American Society of Aeronautic Engineers, the Society of Tractor Engineers, as well as representatives from the power boating industry made a pitch to SAE for oversight of technical standards in their industries."

When I read that in 1916 people were just then "making a pitch to SAE for oversight of technical standards" it makes me feel like there really wasn't much in the way of bolt standards or standard bolts available at that time. I think that in the early 1900's manufacturers had to develop their own standards, and Indian chose 24 tpi as their thread standard. There weren't any Home Depots, Pep Boys, or Fastenals in 1916. I don't think there were even hardware stores like the one in my home town in the '60s, with bins of bolts in standard sizes. I think if you needed a bolt you had to either get it from the car or motorcycle dealer, or from a Black Smith or Mechanic that could either make one for you or pick one out of coffee cans full of parts that he had collected.

It's fun to think that corporate America is and has always been intent on sticking it to the common man, but in this case I guess I just don't feel like making money off of bolts would have been the main motivation when Indian was deciding what thread pitch to use for their bolts in the early 1900's. Thats mostly just based on my personal vision of what things must have been like at the time.

Either way, I'm enjoying the discussion.

Kevin

.

exeric
02-27-2015, 09:35 AM
SAE was an organization that agreed on certain standards, but that doesn't mean the industrial world was in a state of chaos. Probably the most advanced technology of the late 19th century was railroad, farm implement, gun making, and ship building. They used a lot of common fasteners that we have today, but out of necessity, they had to invent specialty hardware; just like today's space program. When an engineer chooses a particular size bolt, and thread pitch, it's based strictly on function, and engineers in the 19th century were very smart. 1/4 x 24 is still a standard nominal screw size, as is 1/4 x 32 but they are not a common size you will find at a hardware store. However, back at the turn of the century, hardware stores were quite big, and well stocked and they were the Home Depots of their day. Take a look at a Popular Mechanics magazine from that time period. People were very self-sufficient and made much of what they needed around the house, or farm. I'm always amazed when I look at an old P.M. magazine and see the complex, creative, and well made objects people constructed in their home basements, and shops.

fciron
02-27-2015, 12:47 PM
Here is a page from the Todd Donigan Iron Co. 1983 catalog. As you can see, an array of threads are available. 24TPI is well represented, so it may just have been a compromise choice, rather than a proprietary money grab.

Let's not get too sentimental, the pages of Popular Mechanics do not represent the average American, then or now.

14696

fciron
02-27-2015, 12:51 PM
Oh, and standardization would have really started in the US a couple of decades earlier, during the Civil War.

exeric
02-27-2015, 01:04 PM
[QUOTE=fciron;146891]
Let's not get too sentimental, the pages of Popular Mechanics do not represent the average American, then or now./QUOTE]

Good point and the more I think about it, it's true. However, without the distractions of t.v., vast disposable income, and easy transportation; people read more, played musical instruments, tinkered, and probably drank a hell of a lot more booze.

T. Cotten
02-27-2015, 01:04 PM
My opinion Folks,

...for what that's worth,...
Not only did they want to avoid juggling gears, but for 1/4" fasteners, 24tpi is more appropriate than SAE 28tpi for use in an aluminum casting.

....Cotten

Robert Luland
02-27-2015, 01:52 PM
Here is a page from the Todd Donigan Iron Co. 1983 catalog. As you can see, an array of threads are available. 24TPI is well represented, so it may just have been a compromise choice, rather than a proprietary money grab.

Let's not get too sentimental, the pages of Popular Mechanics do not represent the average American, then or now.

14696

It wasn't the 24 thread count that was proprietary but that they would deliberately under size things so nobody else's would fit. Now that's proprietary. Bob L

fciron
02-27-2015, 03:10 PM
Lots of things here I can agree with. Let's get back to that Power Plus. :-)

(While I was reading up on standards, so as not to make a bigger ass of myself, I learned that BA threads have an inch head, but metric threads. Wild. )

BoschZEV
02-28-2015, 10:07 AM
I learned that BA threads have an inch head, but metric threads. Not to continue off topic, but...

Both the pitch and the heads of BA fasteners are in metric-based geometric series rather than being simply metric. The pitch of each thread in the series is based on 0.9 mm with the actual pitch of a given fastener being 0.9 mm to the power of the BA number (e.g. 3BA is (0.9)^3 = 0.729 mm). Similarly, the distance across the flats of the heads also are in a metric-based geometric series starting with 10.5 mm for a 0BA fastener.

BA fasteners were developed for clocks and watches and adopted by the British for instruments in general. They were used in places on British motorcycles where small fasteners were required. Interestingly, though, the most common instrument where they "should" be used is in speedometers and tachometers, but the Smiths Chronometric units supplied until the early 1960s actually were designed by a French company that Smiths acquired so the fasteners in them are metric. However, these are not the modern ISO metric since prior to the mid-60s the French, Germans, Japanese, etc. each had their own version of metric whose pitch for a given bolt diameter didn't correspond with each other in every case.

But, we digress... Back to this very interesting Powerplus build.

Shaky Jake
03-01-2015, 10:39 PM
While I've got you guys all riled up, I thought I'd talk about pistons. My cylinders have about .008 or .009 inches of taper in them. At the bottom, where the iron stays cooler, the cylinders are hardly worn at all. At the top, near the combustion chamber, there is measurable wear. This is what you expect, and what you normally see when you take an old motor apart. If I was just building a restored bike for shows that only had to start and run for a few minutes at a time to prove that it could, I would use the cylinders as they are, without boring them out, and I would use the existing pistons. Since this bike is going to be a rider, .008 to .009 inches of taper is too much. Like a coat hanger, you can only bend piston rings so many times before they break.

The original Indian pistons are made of cast iron. Not commonly used for pistons today, but perfectly adequate for the stress levels that this engine sees. It's a thousand cc engine that makes about fifteen horsepower. The compression ratio is something like six and a half to one. The stresses in this engine are on the order of the stresses that an old Briggs and Stratton lawn mower engine would see. If I could find old oversized Indian pistons, I would use them, but I have not been able to find any. So, I began to look for custom piston manufacturers. There are several of them out there; such as Venolia, J&P, Egge, Arias, Wiseco, Ross, and more. I contacted all of those and several more, described the Indian Powerplus pistons, and asked whether they could make me some pistons that would work. Several of them said that they would be able to make me pistons, so it was just down to my judgement who I went with. After a bit of discussion, I made a deal with Nick Arias III to make me some pistons.

The pistons will be made of forged aluminum. I think cast aluminum Pistons would have been fine, because I've had engines with half the displacement that make twice the horspower and run at twice to RPMs with cast aluminum pistons. I'm not saying forged pistons aren't better, I'm just saying that I think cast pistons would have been good enough. That being said, most of the custom piston manufacturers are making forged pistons now, since their main market is making pistons for racing engines. So it will have forged pistons. I'll need to adjust the clearance appropriately, since forged aluminum pistons need a little more clearance. They expand faster than the cast iron barrels, so you have to give them enough clearance that they don't sieze. They'll rattle and slap a little when cold, but that doesn't hurt anything.

The pistons will look more like modern pistons. They'll be cam ground, and they won't be full skirted like the old ones. They'll have 5/8 inch pins like the old ones, but the bushings will need to be shortened a bit because the aluminum Pistons need a heavier pin boss, so the boss to boss dimension will be shorter. Arias is supplying the pins, which they're getting them from Egge and then they'll grind them to the proper length.

Thats enough info for now, I think I'll save the subject of piston rings for the next discussion. I hope to hear your thoughts on pistons.


Kevin

.

fciron
03-02-2015, 01:41 PM
Are you worried about the changes to the balance factor of the pistons and crank worth the new lighter pistons?

I know vibration has been the cause of a lot of Cannonball grief.

Shaky Jake
03-02-2015, 03:11 PM
Are you worried about the changes to the balance factor of the pistons and crank worth the new lighter pistons?

I know vibration has been the cause of a lot of Cannonball grief.


Yes.


Kevin

.

T. Cotten
03-02-2015, 04:02 PM
Kevin!

Have you determined the original factor?

.....Cotten

exeric
03-02-2015, 06:50 PM
I'll be following this with great interest Kevin. I will be using the original pistons in my '16J because the cylinders have minimal wear due to the engine spending most of it's life as an air compressor. I do have another '16 motor that I would like to build up in the future and it will need pistons made to suit a new bore. I'll be curious about the piston clearance as I have heard many conflicting stories about aluminum piston fitted in early motorcycles.

T. Cotten
03-02-2015, 06:59 PM
Eric!

It would invaluable if you could determine the existing balance factors of your motors.

Got knife edges?

....Cotten

exeric
03-02-2015, 07:04 PM
I've never balanced a motor Tom. That is something I should really pursue, but my talents(?) have never been in motor building. People like me are well advised to trust the experts:)

T. Cotten
03-02-2015, 07:21 PM
Eric!

The "experts" want it to be 'sacred knowledge', and intentionally make it far more complicated than it really is.
There is infinite mis-information about motor balancing, so the first step to the truth is to find out what the Powerplus really was to begin with.

Original crank assemblies and original pistons are priceless for recovering this part of History, even if they are otherwise trashed.

A scale, and a large lathe with simple centers could do it, honest.

....Cotten

Spacke2speed
03-03-2015, 01:09 AM
Kevin
While I am definitely not a balance expert, I do have some food for thought.
The “original factor” is designed for 1916 speeds on 1916 roads which are a lot slower than today’s speeds, mainly due to the quality of roads back then vs now.
It is my understanding that the intended usage of this PP is for the Cannonball. Not just for putting around the block or in town.
With that in mind, what is the main touring speed in high gear that they and/or this PP will travel during the Cannonball?
What is the RPM that produces the most power that is also realistic to maintain for a sustained period of time?
That optimum RPM and tour speed will show what the required overall gear ratio of the PP needs to be traveling at that speed and RPM.
Based on the above, I would think that the PP motor should be balanced with that RPM in mind so it will be the smoothest at that tour speed.
Again, just some food for thought
Spacke2speed
P.S. A friend said if I want to get into the details, here are some interesting articles on motorcycle motor balancing.
http://www.terra-glide.net/flywheels.html
http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/EngineBalance/EngineBalance.pdf
http://www.caimag.com/wordpress/2011/05/02/harley-engine-balancing%E2%80%A6-reverse-engineering-and-the-balancing-process%E2%80%A6-how-i-do-it/

Tom Lovejoy
03-03-2015, 01:28 AM
my Henderson has Venolia forged pistons, set up at what they recommended. Been 18 years with no issues at all, approaching 7,000 miles on the engine, good luck.

Shaky Jake
03-03-2015, 08:39 AM
I want to say that I really enjoy these little discussions.

Piston clearance: I told Mr. Arias the diameter that I want to bore the cylinders to. It was based on removing the minimum amount of metal but being sure that the cylinders would clean up. I told him to subtract his recommended clearance from that dimension, and then make the pistons that size. I've built air cooled engines with forged aluminum pistons before, and I am certain that Arias knows what the clearance should be. I'm trusting them on this one.

Balance factor: Yes! I do intend to measure the original balance factor. I don't have the equipment, but I know someone who does. If that doesn't work out I will figure a way or ask somone how because you know what? Physics is fun! When I get off of these 13 hour night shifts I plan to do some research and seek some advice about what the balance factor should be. To be honest, I really don't want to drill holes in my 100 year old crank. I asked Nick (Arias) to make the piston crowns thicker than normal, so that they will be heavier. He had one of my original pistons that I sent him so he could measure it himself. Even with that, the new pistons will be lighter than the old. I'm also hoping that the low engine speeds that these old engines run at will work in my favor.

And yes, I plan to estimate the RPM that it will most often see. It will be an estimate, I don't think I can know what the power band and performance characteristics will be until I have it running and put some miles on it. But I can decide a range of road speeds that I want to tour at, and look at the range of sprockets that are available and use that to calculate the range of RPMs that engine will most often run at. I suspect it will be some what of an iterative, trial and error process. I should probably also ask the advice of somone like Mr. Spacke2Speed who has done some touring on old Indians. ;-)

Thanks for all the advice and the links. It gives me some stuff to think about.


Kevin

.

T. Cotten
03-03-2015, 01:05 PM
Kevin!

It is all much, much more simple than those who wish to impress let on.
All the fancy gismos are not necessary, but a scale will be.

You only need to determine the "weight" of the tops of your rods, which can be accomplished even while assembled (attached).

And if "knife-edges' tall enough are not available, a very large lathe with centers will do fine, as I mentioned. By adding weight to the "wristpins" until the assembly comes to balance, you can then easily calculate your existing factor.
(I were to start all over, I would use round stock instead of "knife-edges".)

A very simple, and practical discussion can be found at http://www.virtualindian.org/1techflywheel.htm.

Please beware that the optimum factor is, contrary to popular belief, less dependent upon RPM than the design of the frame that holds it.
Twins are enormously forgiving, unlike a Four.

I firmly believe that the original designers actually knew what they were doing, and much is obfuscated by today's rocket scientists with "better ideas".
Beware of anyone who pontificates that any factor is holy for all machines.

....Cotten

Tom Lovejoy
03-04-2015, 12:51 AM
This is a long term dream of mine - to build a engine. I am slowly getting the tools needed, scale, lathe, trueing stand and I have a PP engine under my work bench. Good reading guys, keep it coming.

T. Cotten
03-04-2015, 07:13 AM
Tom!

A lathe is a truing stand.
Just put centers in the headstock and tailstock.

.....Cotten

fillibuster
03-04-2015, 09:27 AM
This is a long term dream of mine - to build a engine. I am slowly getting the tools needed, scale, lathe, trueing stand and I have a PP engine under my work bench. Good reading guys, keep it coming.

I built my rod-lapping arbor shaft (whatever you call it) on the little south bend flat belt drive like in Kevin's photos. Also built the shaft and tapered sleeve that I press into a flywheel to check balance with bob-weight.
Strayed from the conventional on the parallel bars, though. I took four small ball bearings, removed the seals, bolted them 2 each into a couple of adjustable stilts, and the balancing shaft rolls in them. If it's accurate within a penny it's good enough for me. .. . A friend trued his Triumph wheels on it too. His Triumph wheels had no centers.
Have to comment though, that a guy has to give up hunting and fishing sometimes, in favor of this labor of love. And many works ended up in the scrap-iron barrel. But it beats bird-watching.

T. Cotten
03-04-2015, 09:45 AM
The advantage of parallel bars, Folks,..

(..or a huge lathe), is that you can hang the real assembly, rods and all, saving a lot of time and effort.
Faking it with bobweights adds error, and a whole lot of math.

I found when dynamic balancing upon a Stewart-Warner, just removing and replacing a bobweight can change things.

....Cotten

Shaky Jake
03-06-2015, 09:09 AM
Originally, the Indian had three compression rings and no oil ring. The new pistons will have grooves for two compression rings and an oil ring. Some people have run old Indians with two compression rings and no oil ring, especially in race motors. I figure that these pistons will give me the option of running an oil ring or not. The upside of running an oil ring is less carbon accumulating in the combustion chambers. I believe that a downside of running an oil ring will be less oil consumption. That may sound funny, but it seems to me like engines with a total loss oil system depend on a certain amount of oil being burnt off, so that it can be replaced with fresh oil, otherwise the engine would end up running on the same few ounces of oil for a long time. Especially with no filtration this might not be good.

So it seems like there are two obvious options. One would be to run two compression rings and no oil ring, and occasionally remove the cylinders to de-carbon them. I think this is the way they did it in the day. The other would be to run two compression rings and an oil ring, and frequently drain the crankcase and replenish it with fresh oil, perhaps as often as every or every other time I fill the gas tank. I would probably also mix two cycle oil or some kind of top end oil in the gas, to lubricate the valve guides.

Thoughts?



Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
03-10-2015, 09:56 AM
One of the guys on another forum mentioned that he had a 1924 Chief that he ran an oil ring on the rear cylinder but not the front. The idea is that the rear cylinder gets plenty of oil slung off of the flywheel, but the front doesn't. That is also why the front cylinder has an oil port and the rear doesn't, on both the Powerplus and the Chief. Anybody else have any experience with using an oil ring on the rear but not the front?



Kevin

.

Spacke2speed
03-11-2015, 12:58 AM
Kevin
Here is a little upper for your Power Plus project!
National Film Preservation Foundation: Beverly Hills Board Track Racing (1921) http://www.filmpreservation.org/preserved-films/screening-room/beverly-hills-board-track-racing-1921

I have just recently come across one of my old swap meet boxes which have a bunch of early Indian motorcycle cast iron pistons in it. Attached are two pictures of just the 1916 pistons. One 1916 set was used in the 1917 stroker motor I use to have (note the bottom skirt has been trimmed shorter), the other set is out of a regular 1916 motor.
Interesting sizes varies within each set:
3.108, 3.127 strokers, and 3.105, 3.111 regular
Interesting on their weights:
19.2oz, 19.5oz strokers and 23.2oz, 23.5oz regular
Because I use to have them around, I always ran original piston and original wide rings in my early Indians back then, so I did not have to deal with the issues you are dealing with, at least not yet. When the time comes, I will consult my local early motorcycle engine building shops. They know what the correct clearance for everything that will work with no problems.
I do not know about other people, but a friend ran oil control rings in his 1914 Indian, with no problems on tours for many years. When you run oil control rings on a motorcycle motor original using a total loss system, you will need to reduce the oil pump output to very low. That way you still get the “fresh” oil. Not too much to flood the motor with oil, causing it to overheat. And too little will starve the motor for oil. Depending on the oil pump adjustment, if too much at first, you just need to drain the crankcase every so many miles until you get it dialed in. The amount of oil needs to reflect the type of driving, such as the higher speeds on the Cannonball. You also have the hand oil pump on the side of the oil tank if you need a little extra oil while going down the road.
If you are concerned about getting oil to the valve guides, you could reduce the oil control ring pressure (if you use 3 piece oil control rings) which will allow some oil to bypass the oil control ring (amount depending on the tension).
Also it is my understanding that cast iron valve guides will help with the reduced oil issues at the valve guides.
Hope a little of this helps
Spacke2speed
1476714768

Shaky Jake
03-12-2015, 04:16 PM
Thanks for that little upper, Spacke. That was great.
I'm a little embarrassed to ask, but does the term "pocket valve" refer to the Powerplus style side-valve configuration, where to valves drop in from the top? For some reason I always thought pocket valve referred to the Hedstrom style intake valve configuration, with the cone (pocket?) over the intake valve. In your video they used the term "Powerplus pocket valve Indian" so now I think I must have been wrong about that.


Kevin

.

Spacke2speed
03-13-2015, 02:45 AM
Do not feel bad, I am also a little embarrassed to admit I did not notice or question the comment. Good ear for detail. I do not know 100%, I can only assume it has to do with the side valve configuration, being the valve(s) is in a “pocket” alongside the compression chamber. The original “pocket valve” term most likely being changed to “side valve” at a later time. Hedstrom are “F” heads, if I remember the terms correctly, because of the intake over exhaust configuration.
Now that I have been demoted a couple of notches. What I did notice was when they showed the first winner, his bike was an 8-valve Indian with rider leg shielding from the head porting on the rear cylinder, not a PowerPlus. It was interesting to notice that they were still running 8-valves that late, being that the PowerPlus has been out in production for 6 years. As well as raced, friend had a rigid frame 1916 PP racer (it had a big intake manifold) that we converted back to street bike, with fenders, street front fork, street seat, and such (a fast street bike).
I did notice that the front exhaust pipe is missing, but the front pipe nut is still there. The lower part of the valve spring covers are missing, for ease of adjusting the valve, but why keep the tops on? The intake manifold looks big for a “stock” PowerPlus. The exhaust port area looks different then a “stock” PowerPlus. It has two different types of sparkplugs powered by an early style Bosch magneto. The little bit of frame showing appears to have Daytona frame features. Sections of the two oil line have been cut out and replaced with rubber lines, signs of vibration issues? There appears to be a knurled knob coming out of the top of the carburetor, not “stock”.
It is interesting to see what the Indian’s Ad man version of a “stock” engine is.
Hopefully that will bring me back up a few notches?
Spake2speed

kneesinthebreeze
03-14-2015, 04:57 PM
Thanks Kevin for your documenting your motor mount plate discoveries. I went through a similar process today, with my '16 and remembered your post and found the answer to my question.
Pretty basic stuff, but fundamentally very important.
Nice weekend. Brad

Shaky Jake
03-24-2015, 06:15 PM
Thanks Kevin for your documenting your motor mount plate discoveries. I went through a similar process today, with my '16 and remembered your post and found the answer to my question.
Pretty basic stuff, but fundamentally very important.
Nice weekend. Brad

Glad it helped, Brad. Makes the effort worthwhile.


Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
03-24-2015, 06:17 PM
It's fun to get a bunch of parts back from nickel plating:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-kmDDTks/0/L/2015-03-23%2014.35.01-L.jpg


Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
03-27-2015, 10:50 AM
I got a box from the UPS man this week... I wonder what it could be?

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-QcGRvpC/0/L/2015-03-25%2014.51.36-L.jpg






There's another box inside!

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-RpZkPrC/0/L/2015-03-25%2014.51.47-L.jpg






It has my name on it...

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-B7mGcFb/0/L/2015-03-25%2014.52.11-L.jpg






There's lots of pretty stuff inside:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-PRbc74m/0/L/2015-03-25%2014.52.40-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-85NZt3J/0/L/2015-03-25%2014.53.05-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-g4T2KtF/0/L/2015-03-25%2014.53.39-L.jpg






Shiny stuff!

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-tZdzSMG/0/L/2015-03-25%2014.55.07-L.jpg

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-CxPVcGv/0/L/2015-03-25%2014.55.21-L.jpg




:cool:




Kevin

.

exeric
03-27-2015, 11:06 AM
So Kevin, have you bored the cylinders yet? Until I was lucky enough to get a set of cylinders with mated pistons for my '16J, I had the chicken, or the egg scenario going. In other words, should I have the pistons made to a finished bore, or vice/versa? I am curious what the procedure is in such a case. Regardless, those pistons look beautiful.

Shaky Jake
03-27-2015, 11:36 AM
So Kevin, have you bored the cylinders yet? Until I was lucky enough to get a set of cylinders with mated pistons for my '16J, I had the chicken, or the egg scenario going. In other words, should I have the pistons made to a finished bore, or vice/versa? I am curious what the procedure is in such a case. Regardless, those pistons look beautiful.

I haven't bored the cylinders yet. The way I do it is to measure the cylinders and decide how far I'm going to have bore them to remove all of the wear. Then buy pistons based on that desired bore, accounting for the desired clearance. Once the pistons are in hand, bore and hone the cylinders to fit the pistons, using the piston and a feeler gauge to measure the final bore. I'm sure you could do it the other way around, but I've always done it this way since I have more control over the boring and honing operation than over the piston machining.



Kevin

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exeric
03-27-2015, 01:18 PM
I had the cylinders for my '24 Big Chief done by an outboard boat motor machinist as they are adept at blind bore cylinders. I'm just curious about this stuff as I am lost when it comes to top end work, and particularly blind bores as 6 of my bikes are afflicted with that condition:)

Shaky Jake
03-27-2015, 01:39 PM
I had the cylinders for my '24 Big Chief done by an outboard boat motor machinist as they are adept at blind bore cylinders. I'm just curious about this stuff as I am lost when it comes to top end work, and particularly blind bores as 6 of my bikes are afflicted with that condition:)

Good tip on using a boat machinist, I hadn't thought of that. I use Joe's machine shop in Omaha, he has experience with blind cylinders from old motorcycles.

Kevin

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Shaky Jake
03-28-2015, 12:13 PM
The Arias Engineers are recommending a cold piston clearance of 0.0030 inches, +0.0005/-0.0000. It sounded a little too tight to me, so I asked about it. They explained that it is because the pistons are made of 4032 high silicon aluminum alloy (some people also call it hypereutectic). The high silicon alloy has a lower coefficient of thermal expansion than, for example, 2618 non-silicon aluminum alloy. They also recognize that people vary from this recommendation, based on their experience.

I'm still considering giving the pistons a little more clearance than the specified three thousandths. The tighter clearance wouldn't slap as much, but I'm also worried about seizing a piston. If anyone has any input on this, I would be interested.

Otherwise, I'm now reading through all the info and links that you guys sent me about crankshaft balancing, so I can formulate a plan.

Thanks!


Kevin

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T. Cotten
03-28-2015, 01:15 PM
Kevin!

I'm ignorant of your cylinders, as the only blind ones that I have honed oversize were Lycomings.

But metal moves.
The thinner a casting becomes, the more fastener stress will distort the bore.

I suggest making a stressplate to simulate the motorcase, and install the cylinders at the same torque as when the piston is fitted.

....Cotten
PS: I am also ignorant of your chassis; Is there a top motormount?
This would weigh heavily (sorry for the pun) in a choice of balance factor.

Shaky Jake
03-28-2015, 03:02 PM
Kevin!

I'm ignorant of your cylinders, as the only blind ones that I have honed oversize were Lycomings.

But metal moves.
The thinner a casting becomes, the more fastener stress will distort the bore.

I suggest making a stressplate to simulate the motorcase, and install the cylinders at the same torque as when the piston is fitted.

....Cotten
PS: I am also ignorant of your chassis; Is there a top motormount?
This would weigh heavily (sorry for the pun) in a choice of balance factor.

Yes - I agree with using a torque plate. There is no top motor mount. I'm about 3/4 of the way through your VI compositions on crankshafts, then I'll start on Spacke2speed's links. I strained my back earlier this week, so reading is a good activity while I recover.

BTW - I agree with your earlier assessment that the original designers probably knew what they were doing. My plan is to rebuild as closely as I can to stock, because my experience has been that you can't change just one thing without potential unanticipated consequences somewhere else. One possible exception may be the carb.

Kevin

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T. Cotten
03-28-2015, 03:38 PM
Kevin!

Matt E. in the VI discussion put it simply: "A motor with low balance factor thus vibrates up and down a lot and vibrates fore and aft a little."
Without a top motor mount, I would predict you will find an original factor that is quite high.

And you're right, carbs are enormously forgiving!
(But manifolds ain't. If yours is anything like the attachment, they are diabolical.)


....Cotten

Shaky Jake
03-28-2015, 10:45 PM
All of that reading today inspired me to measure the "as found" balance factor of my crankshaft. I would say "original" balance factor, but I don't know what has been done in the last 100 years.

The first thing I needed was a static crankshaft balancer. Since my flywheels are about 8 1/2 inches in diameter my first plan was to put the crankshaft between centers in my 9 inch lathe and use it as my static balancer. Here's the problem I had:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-5PS5PdM/0/L/2015-03-28%2017.01.06-L.jpg






I could go to the trouble of drilling a center in the end of that junk shaft, but I got to thinking, why can't I use my cheapo wheel balancer that I bought on eBay instead?

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-xTRJTfM/0/L/2015-03-28%2016.50.50-L.jpg






The answer to that question is that the bearings in the wheel balancer are too far apart. Each tower is fastened to the base with four screws and there are two positions provided for each tower, but even with both towers bolted to the innermost position they were too far apart. However, I found that if I move them in to the point that each one is only held by two screws like this:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-RdMJv8d/0/L/2015-03-28%2016.59.26-L.jpg






Then the crankshaft fits perfectly in the bearings:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-7tSrKSm/0/L/2015-03-28%2018.07.37-L.jpg






There's a piece of tubing that you put through some holes to make sure the towers are lined up before you tighten the screws:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-Qbzk7sz/0/L/2015-03-28%2016.59.17-L.jpg






It has adjustable feet so you can level it:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-mMQDxHT/0/L/2015-03-28%2017.38.50-L.jpg






So now I have a static crankshaft balancer. In the next post I will take some weight measurements, do some balancing, and see if I know how to calculate the balance factor.






Kevin

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Captk
03-29-2015, 09:10 AM
One way of looking at it is that it is dependant on the rings as they are the true circle item. It is easier to get the bore to match a standard dimension because rings will be available. The people who make the pistons will usually cam grind them to the appropriate clearance. So the bore might be 3", so the rings will be for a 3" bore and the pistons made with (example ) .004" clearance for the bore.

Shaky Jake
03-29-2015, 09:38 AM
The balance factor is defined as the percentage of the reciprocating mass being balanced by the flywheel counterweights. The reciprocating mass is defined as the mass of the pistons, rings, wrist pins, wrist pin retaining devices, and the small ends of the connecting rods. Since this is all taking place on the surface of the earth, we can assume mass and weight are equal, so next I'll measure the weights of the reciprocating masses. I started with the small ends of the connecting rods. I sat the crankshaft on blocks and blocked up the scale as shown so the rod being weighed was level. I used a lamp shade to hold the other rod vertical, so that it wasn't affecting the result:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-gpJm7n6/0/L/2015-03-28%2017.59.32-L.jpg

The weight of the small end of the rear (male) rod was 198.0 grams.
The weight of the small end of the front (female) rod was 193.7 grams.






I weighed each piston together with it's rings, wrist pin, and cotter all in one swell foop:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-kXMW6wW/0/L/2015-03-28%2017.31.42-L.jpg

The rear piston assembly weighed 596.3 grams.
The front piston assembly weighed 594.0 grams.







I put the crankshaft in the parts washer and used mineral spirits to clean the bulk of the carbunckles off of it, that might affect balance. After it dried, I put it on the balancer. I was expecting the crank pin to settle exactly to the top, but I was surprised to see that it was a few degrees off from that. No matter how I rocked it, it settled back to this position:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-sm3MW33/0/L/2015-03-28%2018.07.07-L.jpg






I decided to hang the rear piston, rings, pin, and cotter on the rear rod, but leave all the front piston stuff off, and see if it balanced. It did not (too much weight) as shown in this video:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/JSW2ckp0DvY?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>






Since the front piston was a little lighter I tried it next, but it was still too heavy:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/IhygdoxrY_8?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>






So then I hung the front piston and rings from both rods using a piece of bailing wire of a scientifically calculated length, and it balanced very well. I could turn the crankshaft to any orientation, and it pretty much stayed there as shown in this video:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/iNY-wvHfZ9g?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>






I weighted the piston, rings, and bailing wire that balanced the crankshaft, and they weighed 524.0 grams:

http://knaser.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Powerplus-or-Bust-Eh/i-g9m5vMF/0/L/2015-03-28%2018.30.49-L.jpg






In the next installment we will find out if I can still do math.

Until then,


Kevin

.

T. Cotten
03-29-2015, 10:49 AM
Kevin!

Sounds like you are going to get a Panhead factor..
And I am surprised that the male rod top weighed more than the female.

....Cotten

Shaky Jake
03-29-2015, 10:55 AM
Kevin!

Sounds like you are going to get a Panhead factor..
And I am surprised that the male rod top weighed more than the female.

....Cotten

I was expecting the factor to be higher too. I'll double check the rod end weights after church.


Kevin

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rwm
03-29-2015, 12:55 PM
why do you want the rod end weight? Don't you wont the whole rod weight?

T. Cotten
03-29-2015, 01:13 PM
Rob!

The tops of the rods are arbitrarily considered reciprocating mass, and the bottoms to be rotating mass.
(Please remember that motor balancing is only an applied technique.)

Of course the bottoms also move up and down with the stroke, so that's why it is conventional to "hang" the rods while weighing, as some of the bottom will still affect the scale: One end on the scale weighs one half of the rod.
(As a check, the bottom is weighed to add to the top weight for a total, that should match the whole rod on the scale.)

This is why I would always expect a female rod top to weigh more than a male,... but I'm clueless about the PowerPlus.

Kevin may well get different results after dis-assembly, but probably not significantly.

....Cotten

Shaky Jake
03-29-2015, 03:04 PM
OK. I went back and re-checked the rod end weights, and it turns out I had made an error. It happens. The male rod still weighs in at 198.0 grams, but the female rod weighs in at 198.7 grams. Maybe I wrote the 8 down as a 3 the first time around. I promise I wasn't drinking much when I took the data. The 5 gram error does shift the answer in the expected direction, but only by a few tenths of a percent. To be honest, I think that in this case the difference in rod end weights probably has more to do with the fact that the wrist pin for the male rod is 0.010 inch oversized, so there has been some meat removed from it's bushing. Note that the rear piston assembly is slightly heavier, which you would expect because it includes a slightly larger wrist pin. I also re-checked the weights of the piston assemblies, that check out the same.


Here is the math, way I see it:

The amount of reciprocating mass that is being balanced by the flywheel counterweights is equal to the mass of both small rod ends plus the amount of weight I had to add to get it to balance in the third video. Arithmetically, that is 198.0 grams + 198.7 grams + 524.0 grams = 920.7 grams.

The total reciprocating mass is equal to the sum of both piston assemblies plus both small rod ends, or 596.3 grams + 594.0 grams + 198.0 grams + 198.7 grams = 1587 grams.

The percentage of the reciprocating mass being balanced by the flywheel counterweights is 920.7 grams / 1587 grams = 0.580

My as found balance factor is 58%.


Discussion and corrections are welcomed!




Kevin

.

T. Cotten
03-29-2015, 03:18 PM
Like I posted, Kevin,

It wouldn't be significant.
With nearly 1600g of reciprocating mass, you would have to error by sixteen grams to make a point of factor.

And upon assembly, the factor could vary as much as eight points without notice (based upon H-D's ever-changing dogma.)

Balancing is fun, but its often flatulating in a hailstorm.

....Cotten
PS: Are there any balancing holes in the flywheels?

Shaky Jake
03-29-2015, 03:30 PM
...

PS: Are there any balancing holes in the flywheels?

No, there are no existing balancing holes. I guess I'm going to have to make some though; the new piston assemblies are about 215 grams lighter. Man, I hate drilling on old parts.



Kevin

.

T. Cotten
03-29-2015, 04:35 PM
Ooh, that's a lot...

(...but it would get you up only slightly higher than the 64% range of Chiefs with 67%!)

Perhaps it would be easier to slug weight within the wristpins; Top end parts are temporary, the flywheels are not.

It would still be prudent if we had other samplings of original PPs' existing factors.

....Cotten

rwm
03-29-2015, 04:51 PM
. Man, I hate drilling on old parts.



Kevin

.
then make the wrist pins heavier

T. Cotten
03-29-2015, 05:53 PM
then make the wrist pins heavier
Kevin!

Many folks are using PEEK for wristpin "buttons" instead of the usual retainers, and it would enable you to retain slugs without pressing them and distorting the pin.
(It isn't heavy enough by itself, as filling the whole pin wouldn't be even 30g at most.)

Determining a choice of factor remains the first concern.

....Cotten

Shaky Jake
03-29-2015, 08:01 PM
Ooh, that's a lot...

(...but it would get you up only slightly higher than the 64% range of Chiefs with 67%!)

Perhaps it would be easier to slug weight within the wristpins; Top end parts are temporary, the flywheels are not.

It would still be prudent if we had other samplings of original PPs' existing factors.

....Cotten


I could almost talk myself into giving 67% a try, but I might not have been clear; each piston assembly is 215 grams lighter. I think that would put it more in the range of 79.5% (I'm hoping my math is wrong).

The holes in the wrist pins are 2.35 inches long by 0.375 inches diameter. If I slug the pins, that gives me a volume of 0.260 cubic inches, or 4.26 mL, in each pin to gain back the 215 grams. The density of steel is 7.8 g/mL, so if I slug them with steel I can gain 4.26 mL X 7.8 g/mL = 33 grams per pin of the needed 215 grams per pin. Lead weighs 11.35 g/mL, so that would get me a little over 48 grams per pin. It was a good idea, but it's not enough in this case. Remember, the original pistons were made of cast iron.

Based on that, I think I'm going to have to remove some cast iron from the counterweights on my flywheels. I agree with Tom, the first thing to do is decide on a target balance factor. I need to find out if anyone else has determined the balance factor of a Powerplus engine. I wonder if I would get any responses on the AMCA Facebook page? Giving it a try...

Thanks for your input!



Kevin

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rwm
03-30-2015, 03:50 PM
i think you going to make the whole thing to light. your pistons each, are almost half a pound lighter then stock. then your going to lighten up the fly wheels. your not building a race motor.

ps. i have none of the answers just some thoughts.

T. Cotten
03-30-2015, 04:24 PM
Golly Kevin,

That's twice as much as I could imagine!

I just dug out the sheet from the last Chief I balanced (2001), and a piston assembly was 667g.

Methinks the eutectics are an issue.

....Cotten

fillibuster
03-30-2015, 10:13 PM
i think you going to make the whole thing to light. your pistons each, are almost half a pound lighter then stock. then your going to lighten up the fly wheels. your not building a race motor.

ps. i have none of the answers just some thoughts.

Okay, if this is a 61" motor (ya? no?) it might be reasonable to consider a higher balance factor, as scouts have been balanced in the upper 70's according to VI. ...... Where's the 45 HD balance? on average

Shaky Jake
03-31-2015, 10:44 AM
i think you going to make the whole thing to light. your pistons each, are almost half a pound lighter then stock. then your going to lighten up the fly wheels. your not building a race motor.

ps. i have none of the answers just some thoughts.


I agree. For the kind of riding I'm going to do, I want to keep the flywheels heavy. I finally got around to counting the teeth on my sprockets. At my target speed of 50 mph, the engine will be turning about 2170 RPM. I'm not looking for quick acceleration. There are ways to make the other side of the flywheels heavier; tungsten, Mallory, heavy metal, whatever, I'm looking into that. I'll figure it out.



Kevin

.

Shaky Jake
03-31-2015, 10:55 AM
Golly Kevin,

That's twice as much as I could imagine!

I just dug out the sheet from the last Chief I balanced (2001), and a piston assembly was 667g.

Methinks the eutectics are an issue.

....Cotten

I hear you, but I'm not sure what to do with that information. My original cast iron piston assemblies are less than 600 grams. At my request, Arias made the new pistons heavier than normal my machining less material off of the pin bosses and the underside of the dome, but in the end aluminum weighs almost a third of what cast iron does.



Kevin

.

T. Cotten
03-31-2015, 11:06 AM
Its a shame Folks,

That we left all that depleted uranium on the battlefield.
Or did we?

I'll never forget cracking a 101 flywheel; cast Indian flywheels were probably not so brittle a century ago.

....Cotten

Shaky Jake
03-31-2015, 11:09 AM
Okay, if this is a 61" motor (ya? no?) it might be reasonable to consider a higher balance factor, as scouts have been balanced in the upper 70's according to VI. ...... Where's the 45 HD balance? on average

Yes, 61ci. My understanding is that higher balance factors are generally used for higher RPM motors. Some people are telling me I should use a 52% balance factor. I'd be most comfortable if I could get back down around the original 58%.


Thanks everyone for all the thoughts and input on balance factor. Keep them coming if you've got more. In the end, I'll do what I can to balance it the best I can, but I don't think it would be a deal breaker if I have to build it with a higher balance factor. It'll work out.

Also; tell me if I'm off base here, but I think that longer rods make the balance factor less critical, because of lower peak piston speeds, correct? The rods on the Powerplus are 8 inches center to center...



Kevin


.

Shaky Jake
03-31-2015, 11:16 AM
One way of looking at it is that it is dependant on the rings as they are the true circle item. It is easier to get the bore to match a standard dimension because rings will be available. The people who make the pistons will usually cam grind them to the appropriate clearance. So the bore might be 3", so the rings will be for a 3" bore and the pistons made with (example ) .004" clearance for the bore.

I almost missed your post Captk, in the middle of all the balancing discussion. There is some room for variance in ring sizes, as long as you set the gap right. In this case I'm using 80mm rings that were commercially available. My 3.125 + 0.020 inch cylinders work out to 79.88mm, so I'll have to file the rings to get the correct end gap.



Kevin

.