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gww
10-29-2013, 08:04 AM
Subject: rust

Machinist's Workshop magazine recently published some information on
various penetrating oils that I found very interesting. Some of you
might appreciate this. The magazine reports they tested penetrates for
break out torque on rusted nuts. They are below, as forwarded by an
ex-student and professional machinist. They arranged a subjective test
of all the popular penetrates with the control being the torque required
to remove the nut from a "scientifically rusted" environment.

*Penetrating oils ........... Average torque load to loosen*
No Oil used ................... 516 pounds
WD-40 ..................... ... 238 pounds
PB Blaster .................... 214 pounds
Liquid Wrench ...............127 pounds
Kano Kroil .................... 106 pounds
ATF*-Acetone mix. ...........53 pounds

The ATF-Acetone mix is a "home brew" mix of 50 - 50 automatic
transmission fluid and acetone. Note this "home brew" released bolts
better than any commercial product in this one particular test. Our
local machinist group mixed up a batch and we all now use it with
equally good results. Note also that "Liquid Wrench" is almost as good
as "Kroil" for about 20% of the price. Steve from Godwin-Singer says
that ATF-Acetone mix is best, but you can also use ATF and lacquer
thinner in a 50-50 mix.

*ATF=Automatic Transmission Fluid

koanes
10-29-2013, 08:30 AM
Thanks for throwing that out there Gary. I have been using Kroil for many years, but prior to that my favorite was Mouse Milk. I don't know if MM is still available, the only source I ever had was an old time salesman that stopped at the shop a couple of times a year. Good to know I can mix my own penetrating lube at a fraction of the cost of AeroKroil.

BoschZEV
10-29-2013, 11:00 AM
Machinist's Workshop magazine recently published some information on various penetrating oils that I found very interesting...This "study" has been copied many places on the web since the magazine published it in 2007. Unfortunately, the author's attempt to "scientifically rust" and then reproducibly measure the torque required to loosen the bolts is seriously flawed by the artificial rusting technique he used, the small number of test bolts use used (3), and the averaging to produce the table. At very best, the only thing that might be inferred from the study is that oil of some kind is better than no oil.

I have a large quantity of Sili-Kroil ("The oil that creeps, plus silicone") so it is the one I always use. But, in no way have I done a study of penetrating oils myself. All I can say about it is that in a half-dozen or so side-by-side comparisons I've done over the past 20 years of similarly rusted fasteners in the same component, Sili-Kroil definitely works a lot better than having used no penetrating oil at all.

c.o.
10-30-2013, 11:04 PM
I've used Liquid Wrench on some rusted nuts on a 99 year old Harley engine with no luck. I will admit though that I couldn't bring myself to try anything near 127 pounds!!! Interesting thread Gary.. thanks for starting the discussion.

exeric
10-31-2013, 08:25 AM
Perhaps my favorite part of messing with rusty old contraptions, is getting them apart and the challenges associated with that. I have to say that from my empirical observations, oil is rarely the primary source of success in getting a badly rusted assembly apart. However, as BoschZEV said, 'oil works better than no oil.' In my experience, you better have access to heat, every wrench known to man, hammers, a milling machine, a lathe, and understanding neighbors that don't call the police when they hear screaming profanities. Lately, I've been using beeswax as a penetrant, as I've heard more than one old timer recommend it. It works okay, but I wouldn't say it's a miracle lubricant. When I have looked at the threads of a stubborn assembly that I've used beeswax on; I can see that the beeswax did get there. Also, heat is the vehicle that makes it viscous, and unlike petroleum based penetrants, beeswax doesn't burn off. Still, no oil is going to substitute for resolute determination, muscle, and the will to get some rusty piece of crap apart.

BoschZEV
10-31-2013, 10:20 AM
To be effective a penetrating oil needs three properties. The first is a combination of low surface tension and high adhesion to the rust, in order to maximize the capillary force drawing the oil into the microscopic channels in the rust. The second is low viscosity, in order for the oil to be able to insinuate itself through the channels in the rust as rapidly as possible. The third is chemical reactivity with the rust itself. Even if all the channels are rapidly filled with oil, at that point you are still no better off than before, since what is holding the rusty bolt in place are the iron oxide connections between it and the housing where there are no channels, i.e. where oil could not penetrate. Whether the voids between the rust are filled with air or with oil makes no difference to the binding strength of the rust.

The surface area of the rust gives the bolt an effective surface area very much larger than the simple geometrical area of the threads so even though the strength of the rust is less than that of steel (say, 10x less, to make up a number), the total binding force is very much greater (if the surface area is 100x larger, which again is a made up number, but a perfectly reasonable one, then the holding force is 1/10 x 100 = 10x greater). Once the fastener can move slightly the lubrication from the oil will be able to do good, so what is needed is an additive in the oil that chemically dissolves the rust.

The reason heat in combination with a penetrating oil works is the differential thermal expansion/contraction between the housing and the bolt alters the microscopic landscape ever so slightly, opening up new voids that now can fill with penetrating oil, and closing up old ones that already have penetrating oil in them so they are left with a low friction lubrication layer.

Chris Haynes
10-31-2013, 12:50 PM
I love AeroKroil. I buy it by the case.

T. Cotten
10-31-2013, 01:47 PM
I did too, Chris!

But the last case of spray cans all have faulty nozzles, and customers brought them all back.
(And too late for me to complain to Kano....)

Now I have a lifetime supply in bottles with an eyedropper, and a wall display of the rest of the case.

Lesson: Buy it in the jug.

....Cotten

BoschZEV
10-31-2013, 02:22 PM
Now I have a lifetime supply... Even though I have a lifetime supply of Silikroil I just checked to remind myself of the differences:

Kroil -- their penetrating oil
AeroKroil -- the identical Kroil, but in an aerosol can
SiliKroil -- the identical Kroil with the addition of dimethyl silicone, claimed to have longer protection against additional rust

So, as far as your rusty nuts are concerned, all three should be functionally identical.

Rodger Brandstatter
11-03-2013, 09:08 AM
A few years ago, I was looking for a product to clean antique motorcycle sheet metal with, in lieu of using any water on these usually rusted parts. I ran into the Strong Arm Spray guy at the Davenport meet. After a brief demonstration, I bought a can to try. Since then, I have been buying it by the case. It never ceases to amaze me how easily things will come apart a few minutes after using. I am in the plumbing and heating business, and keep a can in my toolbox at all times. I use it on everything from rusted boiler fittings to corroded trap connections under the kitchen sink. It probably isn't the best method for getting something apart that would take months of reapplication and tapping with a hammer, but for everyday use it's great. As far as cleaning parts goes, it works well and gives the metal a natural patina (it does the same thing for cleaning antiques made of wood). On motorcycle restoration, I like to use it in conjunction with rethreaders (not taps and dies). I use drop or two on the bolt or threaded hole and run the rethreader the clean up and lubricate all the threads on all the bikes I work on. This may sound like an infomercial, but for the kind of work I do, I have never found anything like it.

jim d
11-03-2013, 06:06 PM
How long is the ATF and the acetone or lacquer going to be effective when both of these items evaporate very quickly. I would also think the the flashpoint would be much lower with these than Kroil when dealing with the fumes and adding heat to the mix. But I may be missing something.
Jim D.

DanM
11-04-2013, 12:59 PM
Jim d-[ you are right- I made up this mix to try to get spokes and nipples apart. After a few days, you only have ATF. I learned to add the acetone to the jar each day and kept applying. I normally use Kroil, (and have gotten some terrible things apart with it) and came to these particularly stubborn spokes, and decided to try the Acetone/ATF. In this single case it did not perform any miracles for me!

When I use the Kroil, I can see the corrosion break down- its in the run off, or if i soak parts in a jar, its in the bottom of the jar. I did not see this occur with the ATF mix.

Dan

Coolbreeze
02-17-2014, 03:01 AM
I have given up on Liquid Wrench. Instead of throwing it away, I found a new use: it makes a decent cutting oil when I am machining steel.

sirhrmechanic
02-17-2014, 05:14 PM
BTW, we've been playing with a new method for extracting studs, etc. and so far it is working brilliantly. Still use penetrating oil, but we have set up a little vibrator on the end of the stud. (No, it's not pink)... it's basically a diode that runs at high frequency. Available off eBay for peanuts. The vibrator can sit for days as necessary. When we go to extract the studs, they come right out. The combination of penetrating oil and high-frequency vibration is amazing. More to follow. Right now, we've only used it a half-dozen times. But it is showing great promise.

If someone has more time to try it on a more 'scientific' level, input appreciated.

Cheers,

Sirhr

ricmoran
02-18-2014, 12:02 AM
CarWell CP-90. It's an ultra thin film inhibitor which penetrates rust and scale. The only failure encountered in use and selling the product over 20 years was a 10-32 stainless set screw that is used to hold the visor shields on aluminum traffic lights as well as cross walk assemblies where the hand lights up with timer.

I've had 1", 1-1/4" and 1-1/2" fasteners that were left in a 55 gallon drum, filled near the top, the drum filled with 4.5 pH rain water and sat over the years. The drum did not have drainage holes punched in it.

The drum sat in various wet filled stages in the tropical heat of day and cool beach side evenings.

The fasteners are used to put concrete forms together and another project was coming up where these were needed.

When we tried to get them to work straight from the drum, total failure as the assemblies were frozen in place and heavily scaled. Sprayed the drum from the top down twice then let it sit for a couple of days. The first 6" - 8" layer of fasteners in the drum came apart without issue, other than a vice and crescent wrench.

Surfaces where the product did not migrate to had to be treated, but all fasteners were used

Used on exhaust studs on my 89 Sportster. After 10 or 12 years of age and misuse with the bike, removing one exhaust stud had it break off in
the head. Treated the other studs to remove them as they all had been butchered over the years from several ex pipe change outs.

Treated the remaining three, then ate a plate of spaghetti and went back to work removing the remaining studs to replace them without a hitch.

The product migrates better than anything I've ever seen and we are advised this by several end users, including fed, state and county governments repair shops.

This product works well to refresh old paint machines without hurting the paint and parkerized parts love the bath with it.

This product can be painted over as well as body fillers stick to surfaces treated with it. of course, sensible surface prep is done prior, such as tack rag or prep solvent.

rdillon
02-18-2014, 06:14 AM
Where can you buy a small quantity of the CP-90? I am in VA. Just did a quick search, no help. Thanks, Randy

T. Cotten
02-18-2014, 04:46 PM
There's a time and place for everything, Folks,..

And for most weather'd scroungings, I rely upon bees'wax from a toilet seal ring, and a low flame.

Must save the Kroil for the customers.

....Cotten

rwm
02-18-2014, 06:58 PM
sirhr. i use an old vibrating football game. place the part in a bucket on top of the game. whenever i'm in the shop i just plug the game in and watch the bucket move around.

fillibuster
02-23-2014, 12:40 PM
sirhr. i use an old vibrating football game. place the part in a bucket on top of the game. whenever i'm in the shop i just plug the game in and watch the bucket move around.

A couple of weeks ago the little mate told me she submerged an old rusted up pliers in WHITE VINEGAR. Next day she pulled them out, the rust was gone, and they worked freely. ..... Last week I finally tried for myself, a crescent wrench, and a similar adjustable wrench with the "magic word" on it, both subjects having been rusted or "frozen" long ago and had resisted my attempts at free-ing with vice grips on the knurled turn screw while tool was gripped in the vice. I submerged them in a peanut butter jar full of the vinegar I had intended to clean my coffee pot with. A day later, in front of 2 good friends as witnesses, I had them both freed up with only a little movement from the vice grip.

So next time you clean your coffee pot, save that stuff for something "frozen". And when you little mate tells you of an old woman's remedy, .. try it.

Bill Pedalino
02-23-2014, 04:56 PM
Ricmoran,

As an American of strong Queens, N.Y./ italian heritage, I best liked the part about eating a plate of spaghetti!

If for no other reason, I'll try the CP-90...

BoschZEV
02-23-2014, 06:38 PM
I best liked the part about eating a plate of spaghetti!
If for no other reason, I'll try the CP-90...I'm afraid that may be the only reason for trying it. If you look at the MSDS for Kroil, which we know actually does work, you will find it is roughly half petroleum hydrocarbons, but also 1-5% alcohols, 1-5% glycol, and 5-15% proprietary ingredients. However, CP-90 is only a "mixture of petroleum hydrocarbons."

There are two things an effective penetrating oil needs. One is low viscosity, to penetrate through the microcracks. However, whether those microcracks are filled with air or filled with low viscosity petroleum hydrocarbons, the fastener still will be just as frozen. So, the second thing needed is a "proprietary ingredient" that dissolves rust.

These work together. The further the solution penetrates, the more rust that is exposed to the ingredient that chemically attacks it, and the weaker the hold on the fastener. However, without an ingredient to attack the rust it doesn't matter how low the viscosity of the hydrocarbon is, because only once the fastener actually starts moving does the lubricant filling the microcracks help in any way.

I like spaghetti as well, but I'm sticking with Kroil. Because it actually works.

ricmoran
02-25-2014, 11:06 PM
I'm afraid that may be the only reason for trying it. If you look at the MSDS for Kroil, which we know actually does work, you will find it is roughly half petroleum hydrocarbons, but also 1-5% alcohols, 1-5% glycol, and 5-15% proprietary ingredients. However, CP-90 is only a "mixture of petroleum hydrocarbons."

There are two things an effective penetrating oil needs. One is low viscosity, to penetrate through the microcracks. However, whether those microcracks are filled with air or filled with low viscosity petroleum hydrocarbons, the fastener still will be just as frozen. So, the second thing needed is a "proprietary ingredient" that dissolves rust.

These work together. The further the solution penetrates, the more rust that is exposed to the ingredient that chemically attacks it, and the weaker the hold on the fastener. However, without an ingredient to attack the rust it doesn't matter how low the viscosity of the hydrocarbon is, because only once the fastener actually starts moving does the lubricant filling the microcracks help in any way.

I like spaghetti as well, but I'm sticking with Kroil. Because it actually works.



BTW, CarWell also is a proprietary product, where the formulation is held close.

From what you wrote: I'm afraid that may be the only reason for trying it. Oh come on, don't be closed minded, where is the open mind? Yeah, I know, tried proven and it works for me so why bother?

You wrote - If you look at the MSDS for Kroil, which we (I don't use it as you'll discover why if you read on) know actually does work, you will find it is roughly half petroleum hydrocarbons, but also 1-5% alcohols, 1-5% glycol, and 5-15% proprietary ingredients. However, CP-90 is only a "mixture of petroleum hydrocarbons." & added by me in this reply and with proprietary ingredients"

Further, what you wrote of the "proprietary ingredient" that breaks rust, KROIL is not the only product out there with a formulation as Cp-90 has their proprietary ingredients as your now are aware of.

Further, review of hazards in KROIL I know I don't want it in my shop as I have too many VOC chemicals already. CarWell lists nothing in hazardous ingredients.

KROIL at 150 for flash point, you might as well use kerosene, auto trans fluid and maybe xylene or toluene.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with you using KROIL, but not for me.

After near 2 decades of having heard people who spin wrenches every day of the week who tried & then went on to continually use CarWell, their favorite words are "never seen anything like it"

Tonight is Lasagna!!

BoschZEV
02-26-2014, 12:41 AM
BTW, CarWell also is a proprietary product, where the formulation is held close.
... & added by me in this reply and with proprietary ingredients"[I realize you sell the stuff, but that doesn't change the fact the MSDS says it is a proprietary mixture of petroleum hydrocarbons. Unlike Kroil, the MSDS does not say the CP90 has any proprietary ingredients at all, only that the mixture of hydrocarbons is proprietary. A film of hydrocarbons helps prevent rust from forming, but it doesn't dissolve rust that is already there.


Oh come on, don't be closed minded, where is the open mind? Yeah, I know, tried proven and it works for me so why bother?The reason not to bother is the ingredients listed in the MSDS don't give me a reason to bother. If a chemical test shows a swimming pool needs chlorine and an acid salesman says to use his product instead, it would be a sign of foolishness, not an open mind, to use the acid.

sirhrmechanic
02-26-2014, 07:20 AM
http://i1005.photobucket.com/albums/af177/sirhrmechanic/ducttape_zps7a352117.jpg

I prefer Occam's Razor.

Cheers,

Sirhr

ricmoran
02-26-2014, 01:33 PM
Fine BoschZEV, please.describe how pizza tastes or the color blue to a blind person. Bottom line is without testing your reaching into the bottom of a paper bag without retrieving anything that actually proves the differences of what not only these products do but also others that may work as well.

Regarding selling something to anyone, have not done that for some time now as I am out of the business. Simply providing information on a product that has provided success in aiding shop repair as well as preservation.

Anyone that wants the product gets it from the manufacturer and there is nothing in it for me. From experience, the best education comes ffrom those who provide insight to something where either success or failure from use happens. It then is up to an individual to decide for themselves and with that simply discounting out of hand what was learned from pratical experience is foolish and short sighted.

CarWell has been around a long time, with or without your business which is not my concern, they will continue producing a product that works.

T. Cotten
02-26-2014, 02:00 PM
Bees'wax and a heatlamp worked on this, Folks.

....Cotten

BoschZEV
02-26-2014, 02:59 PM
...simply discounting out of hand what was learned from pratical experience is foolish and short sighted.
Sorry, but that's just not true. The nice thing about understanding chemistry is that it allows claims about chemicals to be accurately evaluated without having to waste time and money. I haven't discounted anything out of hand, I've discounted it based on science.

There are people who make all sorts of claims that are countradicted by scientific knowledge (e.g. that dowsing rods find water, that oiji boards allow communication with the dead, that copper bracelets cure arthritis, that magnets in the shoes help circulation, etc.). Many of the people making these claims could be quite sincere about their beliefs, and may think they are validated by practical experience. However, despite this, discounting claims like these isn't discounting them out of hand, it's discounting them based on science. Sugar pills (placebos) certainly make some people feel better, but if I'm sick I want to be given pills that have been scientifically proven to cure whatever it is I have. It is neither foolish nor short sighted to avoid knowingly taking a placebo even though it might be endorsed by someone with "practical experience" with it and who mistakenly thinks it works better than a proper drug.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are other products on the market that work as well as Kroil, and possibily even better. If there is such a product, I would like to know about it because I definitely would use it instead of Kroil. However, knowledge of chemistry is sufficient to know not to spend my money on ones that contain only petroleum-based hydrocarbons, such as CP90. Chemistry tells us they will lubricate and protect against additional rust, but they won't dissolve rust that already has formed.

fillibuster
02-26-2014, 04:07 PM
Bees'wax and a heatlamp worked on this, Folks.

....Cotten

Winner-winner, chicken dinner! What's it look like after treatment, Cotten? (that isn't after, is it?)

My vinegar didn't finish the job on the old wrenches. I had to cheat. Used heat.
But I got it.

T. Cotten
02-26-2014, 04:12 PM
Uhmmm,.. BoschZEV!

I thought pure Science started with observation, for which most of us would include practical experience.

As far as your mystical examples, it is only a contemporary short-coming of Science to explain them inadequately. Like "Pyramid Power" was credited with sharpening razor blades, they actually can and do regain sharpness, even though the pyramid fancy has nothing to do with it. But without the fancy, the phenomenon is ignored by the dogmatic, and common knowledge of the past lost to the following generations.

Is chemically desolving rust always desireable?
Most of my requests are to conserve as much of the hardware's authenticity as possible.
More than a few of my customer's have chided me for too much cleaning.

Thus I choose the most effective penetrating lubricant with the least chemical action, non-toxic, bio-degradeable, and.... "Period Correct"!

...Cotten
"There is nothing more un-scientific than a mind blinded by science"... Hoosed Datwun

PS: Filibuster!
Sadly, it ended up looking just like any other "restoration".

BoschZEV
02-26-2014, 04:36 PM
I thought pure Science started with observation, for which most of us would include practical experience.Absolutely. But, an essential aspect is it has to be reproducible. If it isn't reproducible, then there are "hidden variables" involved in the phenomenon that you haven't understood as yet. Further, and very important, once a phenomenon has been observed and completely understood (such as how to dissolve iron oxide without attacking the underlieing iron) subsequent people don't have to waste their time repeating experiments. Instead, they can and should spend their time building on the base of scientific knowledge. That's how and why scientific knowledge advances.


Is chemically desolving rust always desireable?
Most of my requests are to conserve as much of the hardware's authenticity as possible.
More than a few of my customer's have chided me for too much cleaning.It's not always desireable, but it often is. The rusty patina on the outside of a gas tank of a 1910 Indian likely should be left in place (but stopped from advancing further, if at all possible), while the rust on the bolts that are keeping you from rebuilding a 1960 BSA engine likely should be removed. However, it should be removed in a way that only removes the rust and doesn't remove any of the metal. Thanks to chemicals like ones that are in Kroil, that is possible to do.

T. Cotten
02-26-2014, 05:44 PM
BoschZev!

If all irreproduceable results are to be discarded, why is one prominent scientific journal called "Journal of Irreproduceable Results"?

(I thought it was funny at first, too.)

You're not going to bite upon how razor blades spontaneously sharpen themselves?

Anybody?

I guess I'm out of step without a beard.

....Cotten

BoschZEV
02-26-2014, 05:57 PM
If all irreproduceable results are to be discarded, why is one prominent scientific journal called "Journal of Irreproduceable Results"?It's a scientific journal in the same ironic way as 'Mad Magazine' is a news magazine. Scientists enjoy humor, too, which is why that "journal" exists.


You're not going to bite upon how razor blades spontaneously sharpen themselves?Nope. I don't want to be responsible for triggering a discussion of pyramids, energy vortices, UFOs, radiation from cell phones, or mystical substances like CP90...

T. Cotten
02-26-2014, 06:35 PM
BoschZev!

Please forgive me for exposing your crippling lack of a sense of humour.
I was callous and crude.

But the phenomenon of razor blades regaining sharpness is real, and has real applications in the vintage motorcycle industry.

No joke.

....Cotten

BoschZEV
02-26-2014, 08:40 PM
your crippling lack of a sense of humour.A dull razor blade is no laughing matter...

T. Cotten
02-27-2014, 11:12 AM
The price of quality blades is no laughing matter either, Folks!

I invite the frugal (who shave) to try this simple experiment:
Use a blade as long as you can, until discomfort becomes apparent.
Then, instead of discarding the blade, set it aside for six weeks or so.
Return to it after the next blade (or two) has also reached its limit.

Most of you will be open-minded enough to find that indeed, it has a new "lease on life", although never as long as its first, of course.
The higher the quality of the blade, the more this phenomenon displays itself.

The metal has "memory".
(No pyramid required.)

....Cotten

fillibuster
02-27-2014, 11:22 AM
The price of quality blades is no laughing matter either, Folks!

I invite the frugal (who shave) to try this simple experiment:
Use a blade as long as you can, until discomfort becomes apparent.
Then, instead of discarding the blade, set it aside for six weeks or so.
Return to it after the next blade (or two) has also reached its limit.

Most of you will be open-minded enough to find that indeed, it has a new "lease on life", although never as long as its first, of course.
The higher the quality of the blade, the more this phenomenon displays itself.

The metal has "memory".
(No pyramid required.)

....Cotten

I wonder if John Deere ever figured that one out with his plow blades. ... Cotten, really?
although, file-sharpening could be considered an appropriate subject, and perhaps a similar (to razors) characteristic is at play.
I'm all "ears" to your comments, no slights intended. ...... if I want slights I'll summon up sarge, maybe.

T. Cotten
02-27-2014, 12:23 PM
Filibuster!

As he was a blacksmith, I'm certain John Deere took tempering and the springy-ness of metals seriously. He probably had many insights that were taken for granted, and lost to modern technology.

File teeth are not flexible blades.
The fine edge of a razor dulls first by rolling and bending, not wear.
That's why strops were important, as they were an effective means of bringing the edge back to straight.
Modern high-quality blades spring back to a degree quite naturally, given enough time.

Not only are stress-relieved motorcycle frames imbued with "memory", allowing straightening while cold, but cast iron cylinders stretch and distort under the pressures of combustion. The piston "hydraulically" expands the bore as it passes like a mouse in the belly of a snake.
It the metal did not move, it would shatter.
And the bores stay stretched, but slowy creep back while out of duty.
I have measured torque-plated and power-honed cylinders creep back a quarter of a thou after six months.

A motor is "tighter" in the spring than when it was put away in the fall.

....Cotten
PS: Didn't the John Deere Company produce a motorcycle at one time?
I do know that there was one implement that John Deere would never stand behind.

fillibuster
02-27-2014, 01:56 PM
Filibuster!

As he was a blacksmith, I'm certain John Deere took tempering and the springy-ness of metals seriously. He probably had many insights that were taken for granted, and lost to modern technology.

File teeth are not flexible blades.
The fine edge of a razor dulls first by rolling and bending, not wear.
That's why strops were important, as they were an effective means of bringing the edge back to straight.
Modern high-quality blades spring back to a degree quite naturally, given enough time.

Not only are stress-relieved motorcycle frames imbued with "memory", allowing straightening while cold, but cast iron cylinders stretch and distort under the pressures of combustion. The piston "hydraulically" expands the bore as it passes like a mouse in the belly of a snake.
It the metal did not move, it would shatter.
And the bores stay stretched, but slowy creep back while out of duty.
I have measured torque-plated and power-honed cylinders creep back a quarter of a thou after six months.

A motor is "tighter" in the spring than when it was put away in the fall.

....Cotten
PS: Didn't the John Deere Company produce a motorcycle at one time?

.(...I do know that there was one implement that John Deere would never stand behind. ))

I would not advise standing behind a manure spreader, but they built them anyway.

Interesting on the razors, Cotten, but what about those files? We do use files (a lot), don't we?
I've seen them immersed in water for sharpening, but was never taught what is happening there.

BoschZEV
02-27-2014, 01:59 PM
Then, instead of discarding the blade, set it aside for six weeks or so.
Most of you will be open-minded enough to find that indeed, it has a new "lease on life",
The metal has "memory".
(No pyramid required.)There is simply no physical mechanism that would allow for this so it wouldn't even be worth doing this experiment to demonstrate that you are wrong. Except it took less time to do the measurements than it's going to take to type this post.

I carry Gillette Mach 3 in my traveling shaving kit. These blades come in a plastic case with 6 slots and 5 cartridges, with old cartridges dropped into an empty slot as the next new one is retrieved. Because on average I only use this razor a couple of times/month it is a long time between cartridges. However, last summer I spent a long time overseas so I know the most recent old cartridge has been there since July, while the oldest one is at least several years old. They've had plenty of time to "heal" themselves, and it only took a few minutes to place these, and a new one, in my metallurgical microscope.

The new blade is sharp at the highest magnification of my Zeiss microscope, which resolves ~0.5 microns. Unfortunately, my microscope isn't open-minded enough to find the effect T. Cotten claims. The microscope simply reports exactly what it sees. The new blade is sharp at the highest magnification, while the two used blades are indistinguishable from each other with chips in their edges of many microns in size. These blades haven't gone bad because metal was somehow displaced, they've gone bad because metal is missing. In order to heal themselves it would require them to have a "memory" of where the metal used to be, and then for them to grow new metal there. Obviously, this is impossible.

There is an alternative explanation, but it would require assuming the steel in T. Cotten's razor blades is both less brittle and has a lower yield strength than in mine, and that his whiskers have become stronger than steel as a result of his years' of dumpster diving. But, absent evidence to the contrary, I'm going with the simpler explanation, i.e. that he has fooled himself when reporting his old blades work better after sitting for a few months.

But, this nicely illustrates an important point relevant to this thread on penetrating oils. T. Cotten believes his razor blades heal themselves, and as a result he offers his personal observation that he gets a better shave from them after letting them rest a couple of months. Ricmoran believes CP90 works better than other penetrating oils to loosen fasteners, and as a result he offers his personal observation the stuff works despite not having any chemical in it that dissolves rust. The lesson to take from this is that where personal observation is contradicted by known science, you should go with the known science over personal testamonials.

T. Cotten
02-27-2014, 02:56 PM
Filibuster!

Files are commonly sharpened by blasting with ALOX, or etching with muriatic acid.

Or both if it is a useful bastard.

....Cotten

T. Cotten
02-27-2014, 03:17 PM
BoschZev wrote: "There is simply no physical mechanism that would allow for this so it wouldn't even be worth doing this experiment to demonstrate that you are wrong."

Is there anybody else on this forum that has never heard of a common spring?
Anyone with a vintage motorcycle that does not use any?

Thanks in advance,

....Cotten

BoschZEV
02-27-2014, 03:21 PM
Is there anybody else on this forum that has never heard of a common spring?I've heard of lots of things, including springs, but a microscope showed that my razor blades didn't fail because they were sprung springs that were able to unsprung themselves.

BoschZEV
02-27-2014, 04:02 PM
p.s. I searched an academic database for technical articles or book chapters on the wear mechanisms for razor blades. Trying to filter out hits from non-technical magazines almost certainly eliminated relevant technical material as well, and I would have to go to the library to read the actual articles. But, the on-line abstract of one that appeared in the Proceedings of the 25th Annual Conference on Composites, Advanced Ceramics, Materials, and Structures succinctly describes how the razor blades they tested wear:

Blade wear occurred by the formation of edge chips

Since missing chips can't heal themselves, the "improvement" T. Cotten reported that he felt with his used razor after letting it rest for six weeks was psychological. However, it will be better if he continues to believe in healing because if he accepts the scientific evidence he will have to spend money on new blades. It will be cheaper if he denies the science.

T. Cotten
02-27-2014, 06:23 PM
Please consider for a minute, Folks,..

Chipping an edge requires either hitting a very hard object, or embrittlement from work-hardening.

Work-hardening is of course, part of the process of producing an edge, and intrinsic to the stropping process.
If the palm of the hand can be a strop, the face is not that different.

Just like breaking a steel wire by bending it repeatedly until micro-cracks oxidize so the metal no longer has affinity with itself, a precise edge that has rolled and sprung back is going to eventually fatigue, and repeats accelerate it.

I never said the edges were immortal, just that there was little reason to toss them before they were actually exhausted.
Like a motorcycle, there is little economy in discarding them before their time.

Little is lost by experimenting.
Unless you fear it will shake the foundations of your faith.

....Cotten

BoschZEV
02-27-2014, 06:44 PM
Little is lost by experimenting.
Unless you fear it will shake the foundations of your faith.I disagree on both counts. The information I posted has nothing to do with faith, and time is lost by doing experiments for which the answers are already known.

I've lost as much time on razor blades as I care to so the floor is now all yours to continue this as a monologue if you wish.

ricmoran
02-27-2014, 06:57 PM
Well, a frozen speedo core to it's casing sat for a few hours that was treated with CP-90 ended up becoming usable and free to be removed from the casing. The cable sat in a shed and had been exposed to acid rain for only who knows how long.

Guess I can chuck that up to another failure as I think someone is writing from the Matrix and it is not me.

Relying on white papers and scientific goobly **** does not hold a candle to real life experience, but I know I am wrong with that thesis as well.

Just wondering if writing on paper and sending snail mail worked, why bother with a computer? After all the web was invented by Al Gore and is just another unimaginable thorn in old beliefs!!

T. Cotten
02-27-2014, 07:11 PM
BoschZev posted: "and time is lost by doing experiments for which the answers are already known."

So much for reproduceable results....

.....Cotten
PS: Damned if I don't use Gillette Mach3 myself!

BoschZEV
02-27-2014, 07:15 PM
Relying on white papers and scientific goobly **** does not hold a candle to real life experience, but I know I am wrong with that thesis as well.

Just wondering if writing on paper and sending snail mail worked, why bother with a computer? After all the web was invented by Al Gore and is just another unimaginable thorn in old beliefs!!Yes, of course you're right. The internet and the computer were invented by regular people relying on real life experiences, not technically educated people and scientific goobly****. How could I have thought otherwise?

c.o.
02-28-2014, 01:10 AM
This has been the most civil debate I have witnessed on this board in quite sometime. I have enjoyed it thus far... as far as razor blades go..... after two or three shaves, it's discard time. I just can't stand scraping until my face is raw! Good thing I leave them in the drawer from September to April or May..... Having said that, just for giggles, the next time I go on a stint of making myself respectable I might just save one back for awhile and do a little "experimenting".

T. Cotten
02-28-2014, 09:15 AM
Cory!

Please note that I used the term "quality" razors; BICs and other dimestore disposables will show regeneration proportionally less to match their initial short life.
Those who see me bleeding at D-port see the results of a brand new one!
I am a horrible cheapskate, and have found proper use of quality razors make them much more economical in the long run, inspite of the initial high cost.

Many of you know that a razor should never be rinsed with hot water.
The metallurgical reasons for this are genuine.

....Cotten
PS: This enormous edit window is great! (too bad it only works on one of my old PCs.)

Back closer to original topic, Folks,

How many of you have actually tried the molasses soak?
(One fellow suggested that it must have sulfur in it.)
Since feedstores are now extinct even in my agricultural region, I haven't investigated.
(I'm too cheap to buy it at the grocery...)

Thanks in advance as always,

....Cotten

ricmoran
02-28-2014, 03:48 PM
For razor blades I insert mine after drying into a CORTEC VpCI 126 zip bag. Typically get 6 months out of one blade shaving daily. The best was one year with a freshly produced bag.

In the left hand you have a green pill, and in the right hand is a red......choose wisely because once taken your life will drastcally change. More Matrix funnies.

BoschZEV
02-28-2014, 04:28 PM
How many of you have actually tried the molasses soak?I may have. About 20 years ago someone gave me 5 gal. of something called Rusteco that I strongly suspect is just molasses. They're still in business and the MSDS for it says its only ingredient is "Liquid Extract from organically grown plants." The results from it are just like people describe as the results from molasses (or treacle, as the English call it, also used for de-rusting).

In any case, whatever is in it the Rusteco it works great for removing rust without any damage to the base metal. I've used it on the insides of motorcycle gas and oil tanks (after first using a solvent to remove the oil from the inner surface), surface rust on a vise for my mill, rust on the slide bar for a taper attachment for my lathe, and no doubt a few other things. In the case of light rust on a complex object (e.g. a tilting mill vise) I soaked a thin rag in the stuff and stuck it to the contours of the rusty piece. It only took a few minutes to remove the rust, after which I slid the rag over other contours.

T. Cotten
02-28-2014, 04:57 PM
BoschZev!

My sample of Rusteco worked every bit as well as white vinegar (which I use daily for many tasks.)
But no better to my observations; Certainly not as re-useable as claimed.

And Ricmoran!

Six months!
I have a relatively light beard myself, but....
Is this CORTEC VpCI like dry ice?

....Cotten

BoschZEV
02-28-2014, 05:12 PM
My sample of Rusteco worked every bit as well as white vinegar (which I use daily for many tasks.)
But no better to my observations; Certainly not as re-useable as claimed.My Rusteco was given to me for free. I suspect someone like you will appreciate that because of that fact alone it works 25% better than it would had I paid for it...

I've used a few gal. at a time in gas tanks after which I returned the remainder to the 5 gal. container. Other than that I used smaller quantities (also returned to the main container). It still works fine after 20 years but because of this type of usage I can't say myself how reuseable it is. That is, if the amounts I used lost, say, 25% of their effectiveness before I returned it to the main container, the overall drop of effectiveness wouldn't be noticeable to me because of the way I use it.

T. Cotten
02-28-2014, 05:29 PM
BoschZev!

I make a distinction between "free" and "effective".
(Can't believe I would have paid for it, but I might have...)

It is true that white vinegar is not free on the market, but cheaper, and multipurpose;
Not bad on a salad mixed with a little canola oil as well. (Spices help too.)
It enhances the other flavors without interference.

Molasses may prove even better.

But we will need reproduceable experimentation to be certain.

As they say on TV: "Results may vary."

....Cotten

BoschZEV
02-28-2014, 07:55 PM
I make a distinction between "free" and "effective".I completely agree. All I'm saying about Rusteco is that it was free and is effective. Whether or not there are other substances that are even more effective, faster, more reusable, etc. hasn't been an issue with me, because the stuff certainly has been effective enough for my needs.

T. Cotten
02-28-2014, 10:24 PM
BoschZEV!

And just to make my posts clear,
Rusteco did not meet my needs.
I was disappointed.
(Even though I probably received it free as a sample,.. I have to call it as I see it.
Internal tank cleaning is always a big bite to chew, I admit.)

....Cotten

c.o.
03-01-2014, 12:10 AM
Cory!

Please note that I used the term "quality" razors



....Cotten


I did note that you meant "quality" Cotten. I couldn't shave with a "BIC" if I tried. I'm forced to pay for the good stuff. After further reading this thread, perhaps their downfall is partially due to my method of caring for them.

BoschZEV
03-01-2014, 12:29 PM
I make a distinction between "free" and "effective".An important corollary to this is that there also is a distinction between expensive and effective. For no good reason I searched eBay for Rusteco and I got only one hit -- someone selling a qt. bottle of the stuff for $75(!). As I wrote earlier, the stuff has worked fine for my purposes, but no way is it worth $75.

rwm
03-01-2014, 09:27 PM
i have used coke a cola to free up stuck hardware. it works good for steel studs or bolts that thread into aluminium.

ricmoran
03-03-2014, 01:56 PM
And Ricmoran!

Six months!
I have a relatively light beard myself, but....
Is this CORTEC VpCI like dry ice?

....Cotten

Tom, Cortec VpCI is a friendly salt, 5,000 time less lethal than table salt. The chemical name is amine carboxylate. The chemical has the ability to hold an anodic and cathodic charge and is chemelion like in application. Works as a crystal in it's non activated format. Because of the small charge held by the chemical, the chemical has a magnetic attraction to metals.

The chemilion part is if oxygen/moisture are introduced once bound to the metal, the chemical converts from crystal to film and then is absorbed into the metal substrate @ 90 nanometers whice surpasses travel of contaminants that cause corrosion or in the case of enriched electrolyres keeps the solution away from the substrate.

This in turn lowers the corrosion rate 5 to 7 times and in this case is enough to feel the difference when shaving with an aged blade.

T. Cotten
03-03-2014, 02:28 PM
Ric!

It flip-flops like a chameleon?
I still haven't found the CP-90, or Roger Brandstatter's "Strong Arm" locally.

My studies may have to wait until it isn't -7F, and the 53+ inches of this winter's snowfall has subsided.

Dipping steel in brine sounds familar, though.

.....Cotten

Rodger Brandstatter
03-09-2014, 09:45 AM
Tom- After I bought some Strong Arm Spray at the Davenport Meet a few years ago, I have always ordered it by phone. The number is on their website strongarmbrand.com. I believe it ships out of of Iowa. I'll drop some off to you next time I'm in your area.

ricmoran
03-09-2014, 06:08 PM
To order cp-90 - 1- 800-856-6798

Yes Tom, VpCI goes from crystal to film then sinks into the substrate and as it does this the anode and cathode charged inhibitor molecules prevent the electrolyte from contacting the metal.

The process reduces the corrosion rate 5 to 7 times.

VpCI was invented for the US Navy in the 40's, but over the last 2 decades, CORTEC found a way to use environmentally friendly amine carboxylate for the active compound that controls corrosion. Formulation was tweaked to be able to apply the VpCI to extruded films as well as other products from coatings, penetrating compounds, cutting fluids, oil process industry and other categories in the MRO business.

Shaky Jake
06-10-2014, 11:16 AM
I stumbled on this thread while looking for information about 'Strongarm' after talking to the Strongarm guy at the Anamosa, IA swap meet last weekend. He's very passionate about his product. There were a couple of good comments about Strongarm, but mostly I enjoyed the razor blade discussion. The concept of putting a razor blade aside until you've dulled a couple more, and then reusing it and finding it sharper reminded me of how I handle my laundry on a long motorcycle trip. I always fold my dirty shirts neatly and put them back in my saddle bags because I find that, after about a week, my dirtiest shirt has somehow become my cleanest shirt. This phenomenon has been repeatable many times over.

Strange but true.

As for the Strongarm, I was am interested more in using it as a preservative than a penetrant. If anybody has experience with this I would be interested. Up to now I've been using Gibbs oil for preserving rusty metal, with fairly good results if it is reapplied every couple of years. I'm wondering if the Strongarm performs better, worse, or similar to the Gibbs.

Thanks.

Steve Swan
06-12-2014, 10:44 AM
I did too, Chris!

But the last case of spray cans all have faulty nozzles, and customers brought them all back.
(And too late for me to complain to Kano....)

Now I have a lifetime supply in bottles with an eyedropper, and a wall display of the rest of the case.

Lesson: Buy it in the jug.

....Cotten

yep, my last case the nozzles were defective too.

Chris Haynes
06-12-2014, 03:32 PM
yep, my last case the nozzles were defective too.

All of mine have been troublefree.

Steve Swan
06-12-2014, 04:06 PM
i just bought a new case of Kroil, the first nozzle works fine.

the last case i bought probably 2-3 years ago, every nozzle was defective. A friend of mine bought a case at the same time; all his nozzles were defective too.

Coolbreeze
09-02-2014, 11:06 PM
I have had such poor results with Liquid Wrench that I now use what I have left as a cutting lubricate when machining or drilling steel. It works pretty good in that application. I have fair results with PB Blaster.
Whatever is used, it must be given time to soak and penetrate.

Steve Swan
09-02-2014, 11:55 PM
I'm intrigued by the gentle but effective nature of this Strongarm stuff. Has any body used it to remove gas tank rust ? if it has to be rubbed on, why couldn't a person put some Strongarm with steel shot in the tank, agitate by shaking and wa-la !?? i've never tried molasses, but i am really tempted to give it a whirl until i just did a brief study on Strongarm. i've always used 3% solution phosphoric acid until the past couple tanks when i switched to electrolysis and washing soda solution. I'm intrigued by the idea of trying Strongarm in my JD tanks since Strongarm is apparently a rust remover and inhibitor.... no flash rust.... ?!

Dablaze
09-05-2014, 01:11 AM
Hunt up some CorrosionX if you can find it. It's military spec.

Craig

23JDCA 808
09-05-2014, 08:26 AM
I had a window winder whose chromed brass knob was rusted to the steel pin. I soaked it in vinegar and worked it by hand for a day; freed right up.
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