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Robert Luland
09-23-2013, 04:41 PM
Good afternoon Gentlemen (and Ladies if Denise tunes in?), Well with this new category, I decided to get my 22JD project back on line. This also has to do with one 1922 loop frame being delivered today. After four years almost to the date. I have searched for what I call the holy grail. A frame for my baby, I won it on Fleese-Bay from Australia three weeks ago and did everything I could not to fall into the same nightmare Dewey was forced to endure. Let me tell ya. When the USPS says air mail, they mean it. Frame went from down under to LAX in one hop, was released out of customs Sunday morning the 22nd and was ready for pick up in Hoboken at 7:00am the 23rd on the other end of the USA. It’s back where it belongs but with a very sad tale to tell. If you look at the picture of the rear lower motor mount. You will see a piece of the engine case still attached. Whoever did the damage to this frame, did it with a sledge hammer. The engine was beat out of the frame, most likely for aluminum scrape. So in the end my work is cut out for me. The upper motor mount tube has to be replaced. I think I will do it in two pieces to avoid having to disassemble the whole frame. All the rivet studs in the rear axle carriers also have to be replaced. But tomorrows task will be to locate a 2’X5’X1” steel plate to fabricate a frame table. This is going to be a lot of work but it’s fun work! No stress here. I feel like a kid in a candy shop right now.
Bob L

Robert Luland
09-23-2013, 04:43 PM
And then there's more.

exeric
09-23-2013, 05:31 PM
I'm glad you got a frame Bob, and I think the frame you got was destined to go to someone like you, that can take it back from it's long sleep. My 1916 J frame was pretty nasty too, but I have to say that the challenge was enjoyable, and I always feel good when I can rescue something that somehow survived the smelter. I envy the guys that find these perfect frames, but they miss out on the bond you make with a frame that has to be beat, ground, brazed, and finessed. I really think that is what gives your bike it's heart. . . . I'm getting kinda' misty eyed.

By the way, I hope you go to Denton in '14. I think I'm going to make an effort to camp there, and bring 1, or 2 bikes. I think you will like that meet, and the people that put it on.

alanc48
09-23-2013, 07:02 PM
I'm glad you got a frame Bob, and I think the frame you got was destined to go to someone like you, that can take it back from it's long sleep. My 1916 J frame was pretty nasty too, but I have to say that the challenge was enjoyable, and I always feel good when I can rescue something that somehow survived the smelter. I envy the guys that find these perfect frames, but they miss out on the bond you make with a frame that has to be beat, ground, brazed, and finessed. I really think that is what gives your bike it's heart. . . . I'm getting kinda' misty eyed.

By the way, I hope you go to Denton in '14. I think I'm going to make an effort to camp there, and bring 1, or 2 bikes. I think you will like that meet, and the people that put it on.

Exactly Eric, there is nothing more satisfying that taking what some people say is junk or not salvageable and giving it a new lease on life. It's a lot more work, but I think it's a lot more satisfying. Good luck on the build Bob, it looks like a great one.

c.o.
09-23-2013, 11:08 PM
Right on Bob! I look forward to watching you work the magic!

Slojo
09-24-2013, 08:29 AM
Bob

Not to pop your bubble, does your frame have a steering neck reinforcement plate , should it? By 1922 I think it should have the plate that wraps around the lower gusset of the steering head?

joe

MMasa
09-24-2013, 12:51 PM
Joe
That reinforcement was started in 1920 and ran thru 1924 frames.
Mark


Bob

Not to pop your bubble, does your frame have a steering neck reinforcement plate , should it? By 1922 I think it should have the plate that wraps around the lower gusset of the steering head?

joe

servicardenise
09-24-2013, 08:43 PM
Bob,
Best wishes on a trouble free assembly. I hope you enjoy the process of the restoration and always make sure to document, document, document. What you know should be preserved for future generations to attempt to replicate. What a trip either way. You are forced into learning all about your little pieces parts. I look forward to your updates.
Denise

bob43wlc
09-24-2013, 09:15 PM
Good luck with the build Bob. I will be following each step with great interest.

BigLakeBob
09-25-2013, 11:34 AM
Bob, would this work for your table? http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001EUvsY7zmilkV6SdkQlFGtsmYWwgvbujCAWorEe Bf1C-fUSjfIETCP87iDBYLWoZ6cRdBa8i9QIFmXLRwOdffqwyqmFerd roY1Ae2nQl_U08ayC8Vi46zwPgRX-Yl-WpNTNd9osrtTXJJFODCIPL4L8JYmrBoEZxujMC8XmjlXmcvex-Vbpo9HA== Bob

Robert Luland
09-25-2013, 04:01 PM
Bob, because of the slot nut tracks. That would make a great frame table. It would make a great mock up table for just about anything. Just two problems. 1. They want $700 claims. 2. That thing probably weighs in at about a 1000lbs. It would cost me easy $500 clams to ship it. Thanks for keeping me in your sights though. Bob L

BigLakeBob
09-25-2013, 06:32 PM
Looks like a business deduction to me Bob, this would work good as a table to bend sheet metal, wouldn't it?? Just swing by Cleveland from Jersey on your way to Jefferson and pick it up yourself!;) In all seriousness, this company is great to deal with and very helpful in arranging shipments. I have dealt with them numerous times. Good luck and looking forward to seeing your project. Bob

Robert Luland
10-12-2013, 06:30 PM
Well I finally got some time to dive into the frame. The first line of business today was to strip the axle carries of rotted studs, a broken screw in one of the fender mounts and a broken tap in the axle adjusting screw hole. The 7/16X1/2” (6 In total) studs had a #6 hole drill into them at the factory to aid in centering the orbital riveter which flattened them on the inside of the axle carrier so they wouldn’t come out when you went to loosen the nut on the other side. Obviously this was done before the frame was put together as Mark Masa pointed out to me. So before ya attempt to unscrew these puppies, you got to get the ridge off first. Stated out with a 3/8 counter sink and worked up to a ½ carbide ball just deep enough without cutting into the thread. Then I just tapped the side with a center punch and the lips just popped off. I tried the old Vise-Grip with a mallet which got a couple out but the other four had a different idea. Look at it this way. If you had been stuck in a hole for 90 plus years, you wouldn’t come out ether. So onto plan B. 1/2” nut welded to stud and the impack took’em right out. Chased the threads and all is good and yes it’s a special thread. ½-18, this is one of the reasons I haven’t touched the frame as I’ve been waiting for the tooling arsenal to show up in the mail. Drilled out the broken screw and chased that. Now for the one I’ve been procrastinating on, the broken tap. The area that the chain adjuster screw goes though amounts to nothing. The only thing going through my head was am I going to break the casting. In the tooling world you have cheap taps and real good taps, nothing in between. I had a hunch I was going to get lucky here and I did. Two good shots with a small center punch and the tap broke into a zillion pieces. I chased both chain adjuster holes but the threads are weak. The casting is too thin to drill for a Heli-Coil or Cert. So it looks like I’m going to plan C. I have to replace the two lower tubes any way. So it wouldn’t be a big deal to remove the axle carriers completely and weld them up, drill and retap. On Dewey’s advice I flipped the frame on its side to do the “Am I Screwed Test”. For the most part these frames rot from the inside out. I found this out real quick with the side car frame. I ended up replacing a good chunk of tube. Well I won. I took a center punch and gave a good shot in six different places on the bottom of the main tube and didn’t break though. So I’m just going to Tig up the pitting and put it to bed. That’s all for now until I build some kind of frame table. Any one got a 16”X60”X1” piece of plate in their living room they don’t need? Bob L
http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae1/RobertLuland/IM002362_zpsa1a530f4.jpg (http://s952.photobucket.com/user/RobertLuland/media/IM002362_zpsa1a530f4.jpg.html)
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exeric
10-12-2013, 07:37 PM
Great pictures Bob. I went through the same ordeal on my 1916 frame. For sentimental reasons I saved all the old studs and look at them as trophies.

Jim
10-13-2013, 08:36 AM
Keep up the good work! and have fun!

Robert Luland
12-25-2013, 07:24 PM
Good afternoon Ladies and Gentlemen figure I’d tune in and give ya an update on what’s going on with the little motorcycle that could! I ended up purchasing a 1”X16”X72” piece of flame cut plate to build a frame table. After putting it on the layout table on two blocks of wood - two days later it was sagging in the center, so it was off to buy some 2X2 square stock to beef it up. It took me two more weeks to score a piece of 6X6X7” bar to make the transmission mount but we’re getting there (man that was a lot of chips). The hockey pucks you see in the tranny plate are there so the rear axle plate carrier indexes properly every time I have to remove the frame. I tigged up the heavy pitting on the bottom tube today. So next week, let the straightening begin. I have one of those cheap ten ton bodywork ram sets that I think will suffice for the job. Keep in mind that I have no clue what I’m doing here. I’m winging it but in this type of scenario, Bob falls back on the number one rule. When in doubt, completely over kill. Over kill is a good thing for two reasons: first, it limits your chance of failure by 90% and second, nobody could ever accuse you of being lazy. Bob L
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Tom Lovejoy
12-25-2013, 11:33 PM
very cool, interesting - looking good,thanks for posting.

exeric
12-26-2013, 09:06 AM
Very nice Bob. I think I like seeing the fixtures you, and Jerry come up with, more than the parts you're going to fix.

duffeycycles
12-26-2013, 09:44 AM
I second what Eric said ,Thanx for sharing

Robert Luland
11-16-2014, 02:38 PM
Well Ladies and Gentlemen, It’s time to start posting again about the little motorcycle that could. So much has been accomplished since the last time I posted almost a year to date. I just haven’t had the time but I have been busy making parts and that’s a good thing. Anytime someone adds a quality part to the 1929 and down pool. It’s a great thing, for me it’s an anti-depressant. Who needs pills? I got beer and the AMCA! I’m going to do this in mini-time capsules since they only allow me five pictures per post. To pick up where we left off. The next thing in line was replacing the cross tube. We are going to take the trap door approach (Thank you very much Marty) Basically I found the casting pins at both ends and drilled them out. Heated up the casting and got what was left of the tube out. I then took a chucking reamer I modified to ream out any bronze that was left in the sockets (Could I have made the tool any shorter? Yes but I figured that out after I was done. Dumb! You will see this contraption in a following post). The whole idea here is to cut a trap door in the casting, insert you new tube and tig the trap door shut. Plug weld and braze for effect. Does it work? Damm right it does! Beats taking the whole frame apart. Bob L

painterdale
11-16-2014, 02:51 PM
Bob, very interesting! Can't wait to see more! Love the frame bench, too. Dale

Robert Luland
11-30-2014, 08:01 PM
Good day Gentleman, Here’s the next installment of the little motorcycle that could. After getting the upper motor mount cross tube installed it was time to really start fabricating right angle plates and a center post for the neck before I went any further with anymore repairs. It was just a case of locking the frame where ever I could to measure off the center line. At this point the frame itself checks good. The neck casting is a different story. You can also see in the pictures that I finished tigging up all the rot on the lower tube. Next post, I’ll really start digging into the repairs. This is the part were I finally felt like I was getting some where. Bob L

exeric
11-30-2014, 09:00 PM
Very nice Bob. That is one helluva' frame table and sure takes the guess work out of establishing datum's, and centerlines. How many frames are going to have to fix to pay for the table:)

Shaky Jake
11-30-2014, 09:00 PM
This is quite an ambitious project Robert. I'm enjoying your write-up very much. I wish I had your welding skills!


Kevin

.

Chris Z
11-30-2014, 10:08 PM
Thanks for posting Robert, I got a really pitted up frame and as well and really like seeing your progress.

BoschZEV
11-30-2014, 10:37 PM
I'm very much enjoying this project. Great work! I have a question, though. I can't forsee all you will be doing with that frame table, but so far it appears you could have used a Bridgeport mill's table (with the ram pushed back and the table extended to provide the necessary vertical clearance) as a "frame table" to make all the measurements. Of course, this would be at the cost of losing use of the mill whenever the frame is attached. Am I right about this? But, even if a mill would have worked for what you have done so far, do you plan to do more types of work with your frame where your table, rather than a commandeered one from a mill, will be essential? I have more than a passing interest in this topic so look forward to knowing more.

Robert Luland
12-01-2014, 06:12 AM
BoshZEV, The idea of using the mill table was brought up by one of my sons when we started. Big Lake Bob even found a T slot top at the beginning of this post but was cost prohibitive. Here's the problem with both. They are not long enough. The neck centering post extends the table to almost 72 inches. You will understand this better in later posts. I didn't want to dick around with trying to extend things with straight edges. I figure this is not going to be the last time I use this thing so decided to get it right in the first place. Bob

BoschZEV
12-01-2014, 10:06 AM
They are not long enough. The neck centering post extends the table to almost 72 inches. You will understand this better in later posts. I didn't want to dick around with trying to extend things with straight edges. That's a good reason and I thought it was the case. However, I wondered if there was even more to it than "only" convenience. Since I couldn't just fold up and put on the shelf a table like yours between uses finding space for one has to be balanced against the convenience of having such a large surface plate. Thanks very much for your answer. I'll definitely be following your future posts making use of it.

rwm
12-01-2014, 11:17 AM
The neck casting is a different story. Bob L Of course it is. it's a stamping

MMasa
12-01-2014, 12:47 PM
Of course it is. it's a stamping

Do you mean it's a forging?

Robert Luland
12-01-2014, 12:59 PM
When I'm done using it, I've already made provisions for a 3/4" I-bolt that gets screwed in the center of the table. I then just pull over the chain fall, lift it off and on to two dolly's on the floor and under the work table it goes for safe keeping. Bob

Tommo
12-01-2014, 01:21 PM
I go with Rob.
If you ever cut one open you will find it's a series of laminations.
A cobber of mine has one cut open. I'll see if he will take a photo of it so I can put it up for all to see

Robert Luland
12-01-2014, 03:26 PM
It's cool that the neck thing came up because when I was working on the frame you could see a clear as day seam running up the back of the neck casting. Seams like a lot of work for the motor company to go through but then again just look at the way they made the handlebars. Bob

rwm
12-01-2014, 03:48 PM
i was told they got stamped like a butterfly then the 2 halves folded together.

exeric
12-01-2014, 04:49 PM
I've been working on my 1916 frame today, and I noticed the same thing about the frame head. It is obviously not a forging and being laminated makes sense. I've said it before, and I'll say it again; I think the J series of Harley-Davidsons are by far the most interesting of all H-Ds. I think H-D was at a point in their development that they were able, and had the will to make components far better than they needed to be. I also think Indian had the same culture of quality under Hedstrom.

Robert Luland
12-07-2014, 03:34 PM
Well folks I wasn’t going to keep ya waiting like the Walking Dead . The first step is to make the studs for the axle carrier plates but the standard threads were way to loose in the plates, so the next plan was to remove the axle plates and fit them to the studs while they were still in the lathe. (For the readers here that are not familiar with making threads in a lathe once I start a thread if I remove the stud you’re screwed. I will never be able to time the cutting tool to pick up the thread were I left off to do another pass. It has to stay put where it is until it’s done. There are some tricks around this but I was in no mood to throw work in the scrap can). So with every pass I would screw the axle carrier on until I got them where I wanted them. The originals were riveted in the rear with an orbital riveter using what I call a spur spreader. I faked it. I tig welded them very lightly and then kissed them with a ¾” mill end, giving them the original look. You can see this in the picture with the axle carriers locked back in the jig. I also tiged up the axle adjuster screw holes, drilled and retapped.

The lower rear tubes were toast. I chose tubing that was much thicker than original, now all I got to do is bend them. I have four tubing benders in my facility, one of them CNC. No matter what I did with the tooling I had on hand I could not get that little kink like the original. Pissed off, I went to wash my hands and head for the office. Just as I turned around I spotted the Holy Grail, a rack of EMT benders. Down and dirty I had the job done in ten minutes. I mean perfect! Now the mistake, in all my glory with the bender I forgot to put the tubes in the lathe and bore them out to fit the frame castings. So it was back to the lathe to make an indexing plug for the mill. As in the picture I just put the tubes in the mill vice and adjusted the head until the indexer plug slides in and out freely and then put in a drill/mill bit and bore them out. This machining thing never ends with this frame as you will see as this goes on. I lost count of the man hours I put in making jigs for this albatross. After getting the tubes on and the axle carriers in (they just don’t fit in, It took a whack or two with a 4X4 to convince them where I wanted them to go). I used the holes that were drilled to get the original assembly pins out to plug weld everything in place and then brazed them up. A little note about the factory assembly pins. These were drilled and inserted any way the frame man wanted. I mean at all angles, Not one was like the last. Next week I’ll tackle the muffler brackets. Bob L
http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae1/RobertLuland/01_zps77c1acae.jpg (http://s952.photobucket.com/user/RobertLuland/media/01_zps77c1acae.jpg.html)
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Robert Luland
12-07-2014, 03:41 PM
And more!
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Robert Luland
12-07-2014, 03:44 PM
And more yet!
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duffeycycles
12-08-2014, 01:56 PM
Nice work Bob.I really enjoy these in depth build threads of early bikes.INSPIRING!Thanx for posting,
Roger

Robert Luland
01-18-2015, 04:14 PM
Good rainy afternoon Lads, Sitting here bored out of my mind watching Georgie Girl on the tube and knew immediately that I had to find something else to do. The film was a loser 50 years ago and nothing changed so it’s time for my next installment of the little motorcycle that could. We left off in the last post with our hero finishing the rear axle carriers. Today we tackle the backbone and muffler hanger brackets. A lot of thought has gone into this frame and a lot of change if I found anything that would work better than the factory did. My only hope is that someone here can benefit from these posts. The backbone was slightly bent and I couldn’t straighten it after a multitude of tries. So if I got to replace it I might as well fix everything the factory didn’t. The first thing was to solve the gas tank striped thread thing. I machined screw in bushings and brazed them in. I figured that I need to make new bolts anyway so I tapped them #12-24 instead of the Harley bastard thread. I included a picture of my socket reamer that I talked about in an earlier post. Like I said, I could have made it shorter by about 10 inches but in the end it worked. I installed the backbone the same way as the motor mount tube, trapdoor style. I got tired of screwing with the tubes and moved onto the muffler hangers. The rear one is easy pick’ens but the front was going to be a pain in the ass. I couldn’t get a bucking bar into the tight space on the back of the tranny plate so it was off to the mill to make more jigs and tools. I cheated here and borrowed the screw from one of my OTC gear pullers. In the end folks I developed the JD super rivet squisher. I included a picture of me playing mock up. Till the next time, Bob L
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http://ihttp://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae1/RobertLuland/Backbone3_zpsc37eaf62.jpg (http://s952.photobucket.com/user/RobertLuland/media/Gastankscrewbushing1_zps9da06f05.jpg.html)952.phot obucket.com/albums/ae1/RobertLuland/Gastankscrewbushing1_zps9da06f05.jpg
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c.o.
01-18-2015, 11:42 PM
"Overkill" is awesome!!! As always Bob... nice work!!!