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Bill Pedalino
03-25-2012, 05:57 PM
I've been toying around with possible fixes for leaking Harley knucklehead and panhead oil pump inlet check valves. When these cast iron pumps age, many develope what appear to be corrosion-related pockets in the cast iron seat that the spring-loaded inlet check ball rests upon. This seat/ball seal is important as improper sealing allows the old from the oil tank to leak through the oil pump into the motor's lower end when the motor is not running.

I first used a 3/8" ball bearing that I brazed to a rod as a lapping tool. I would use this tool with valve grinding compound in an atempt to lap the old seat smooth again. Aside from providing a very good cleaning of the seat area, this generally does not work, as many pitted seats need a deeper cut to get them smooth again.

Next attempt was to use the commercailly-available aftermarket inlet seat cutter. Again, very little success. Unless mine was mis-manufactured, even when lightly turning the cutter against the inlet set manually, the cutting surfaces go dull after one use (at best). Maybe they're only supposed to be used on aluminum pumps? If so, they don't tell you that. One would also think that the cutters would be hardened - even slightly?? More hard-earned money down the drain. Very frustrating.

Tom Cotton then suggested a burnishing tool of his own making that has worked out well for him. A very interesting concept that uses a hardened ball that is forced and twisted onto the inlet seat thereby burnishing the cast iron seat material smooth again. I tried it on my '47 FL pump with no success. Knowing of Cotton's abilities, I'm sure it works in most cases. But I must have a really damaged pump body, as the lower end still fills up with oil when it sits for a week or so and the pump shaft-to-bushing clearance isn't excessive. Unacceptable.

I am now consdiering contacting a tool Manufacturer to cut a piloted cutter similar to the one that is currently available, but with three removable carbide blades similar to those that one might use on a boring bar.

Another possibility is having a removable 3/8" wide, 45-degree cutting stone mounted on the piloted shaft with an upper handle that one would spin manually (similar to a valve lapping tool), thereby slowly grinding in and smoothing a new seat surface. This surface would have to be lapped afterward, as describe above. I really like this idea, but making the small stone would probably be a problem. Maybe a permanent stone using a diamond grade abrasive for long use?

Third possibility might be to machine a pocket into the pump body and press in a seal or O-Ring upon which the spring-loaded inlet ball would sit and provide the necessary oil sealing.

After rambling above ad-nausia, I finally get to ask my question - do any of you know of a good (and affordable) tool house that might make the tooling proposed above? Do any of you have other suggestions. No ego here - I'll experiment with whatever works.

T. Cotten
03-25-2012, 09:18 PM
Folks!

Please spread the word far and wide that Liberty no longer offers oilpump ballcheck burnishers,
as the prospect of damage from application by the general public has proven to outweigh its benefits.

....Cotten

Knotthed
03-25-2012, 10:20 PM
Same problem on my dad's servi-car.

If your cases are sealed well - don't think it would matter - upon startup, it would refill the oil tank. Unfortunately on my Dad's the cases are not sealed and the oil is gone after it sits for a while. Never measured how long, but it is very annoying and oil is not getting any cheaper!

The best answer and probably the most dangerous I have heard is to install a shutoff in the oil line. That was suggested to me when I was searching for answers to it draining down. Needless to say It still has the big catch pan under it.

MMasa
03-26-2012, 06:39 AM
Folks!

Please spread the word far and wide that Liberty no longer offers oilpump ballcheck burnishers,
as the prospect of damage from application by the general public has proven to outweigh its benefits.

....Cotten

Cotten
Do you have a picture of the Liberty burnishing tool you can post?
Mark Masa

T. Cotten
03-26-2012, 09:08 AM
Cotten
Do you have a picture of the Liberty burnishing tool you can post?
Mark MasaMark!

Even though the attachment manager shows a photo I have previously uploaded,
it will not let me "drag" it for attachment to this post. And that is the only method of selecting a photo that this site's bizarre format allows.
And it will not upload a fresh .jpg: it just sits and spins and spins.

The problem is not in my computer, it is in the design of this site.

....Cotten

MMasa
03-26-2012, 09:18 PM
Could you email me the picture directly? Mark@linkcycles.com

kg993
03-26-2012, 10:47 PM
The only way I've found to post certain pictures is take a picture of the computer image then load that from the camera into the computer then it will post.
If a cutter was made should it be 45* and should there be another angle like 30* to bring the seat off a possibly erroded area? Thinking the larger radius of the ball would set in the highest point of the seat.
Kerry


Mark!

Even though the attachment manager shows a photo I have previously uploaded,
it will not let me "drag" it for attachment to this post. And that is the only method of selecting a photo that this site's bizarre format allows.
And it will not upload a fresh .jpg: it just sits and spins and spins.

The problem is not in my computer, it is in the design of this site.

....Cotten

Rubone
03-26-2012, 11:56 PM
You guys do know that using a hosting site eliminates all those issues, right. You just copy and paste and it is here, and in full size!
I can download a photo to my computer, access it from the host site, copy ad paste it here, and done, in about two minutes!
Robbie

T. Cotten
03-27-2012, 07:59 AM
Here's the wonderful thing about external photohosting, Folks.

.....Cotten

kg993
03-27-2012, 10:01 AM
That and this site is no longer available is what happens to my manuels and tech info files. When I finally learn the tricks to operating a computer they will be obsolete.
Kerry

T. Cotten
03-27-2012, 10:07 PM
Mark!

It took a while with a back-up WIN98 computer to get the site to accept it, but here is a photo of the system of tools that are required when a pump is badly damaged, or of a metal so "chilled" that only grinding will produce an accurate surface.

The years of applying the standard burnisher, as shown at the far right, to modern aluminum pumps gave me a false sense of security on the earlier productions, and I deeply regret ever encouraging the use of a burnisher on an installed pump.

Only on the bench, and with optical enhancement for inspection, can a quality seat be assured.

The stones pictured have all been reduced in diameter to just clear the cap threads in the pump bodies.
Piloted as shown on the far left, the top of the seat is taken down with a 90 degree stone, much as a motorvalve in a cylinderhead would be.
The course and fine stones next to it are dressed to an arbitrary 60 degrees, as is the conical burnisher.

The finish of the burnishers must be of a high luster to produce a perfect seal, and I found a few castings that blemished the ball immediately, for lack of malleability. Ordinarily, the ball remained effective for several pumps, and a polish would put them back into service.

Further complications arose when original seats were not drilled concentric to the cap threads that I so diligently attempted to use for my pilots.
It turns out that the sloppier the burnisher, the better.

I have already lost enormous R&D energy on this problem,
and have reaped mostly embarrassment.
But I encourage anyone who sees the importance of this problem to pick up the ball and run with it.

....Cotten

Chris Haynes
03-28-2012, 01:02 PM
That and this site is no longer available is what happens to my manuels and tech info files. When I finally learn the tricks to operating a computer they will be obsolete.
Kerry

You should immediately download file or a manual when you find it. That way it won't get lost. Perhaps your Manuels got deported. :D

Bill Pedalino
03-28-2012, 05:46 PM
Cotton, - I made one of your burnishing tools, as per your instruction. You're absolutely correct in that a loose thread fit between the cap screw and the 'jack' screw allows a concentric seating of the ball onto the seat. Unfortunately, the seat in my pump body needs to be ground down to good material, lapped and then burnished. I would like to make or purchase the piloted stones that you show in your pic. How, and from where did you acquire them? Did you turn the pilot shafts on your lathe, install the stones and dress them afterward? Also, I noticed that you are using a 60 degree seat angle. I guess the steeper angle allows more horizontal pressure against the ball. Any additional information would be greatly appreciated...

T. Cotten
03-28-2012, 08:40 PM
Bill!

The stones are common 1/4" shank, 1/2" diameter turned down with a diamond.
60 degrees was arbitrary on my part.
The pilot and driver for all is upon the cylindrical stone on the far left, which is the first to be applied.

And I confess that I have made a piloted lap at the same angle as well, but forgot to get it into the photo. Its material proved too soft.

....Cotten

Bill Pedalino
03-31-2012, 08:15 AM
Cotton,

If I read your photo and previous posts correctly, it looks like you use the cylindrical stone (on the left) to initially cut down (relieve) the top of the existing seat area, then the course 60 degree stone to remove the corroded material, then what appears to be the fine 60 degree stone for a finer ground finish. The fourth fixture looks like a 60 degree steel lapping mandrel followed by the burnishing tool. Am I seeing this correctly?

As always, thanks for sharing this stuff (again).

Bill

T. Cotten
03-31-2012, 09:04 AM
Bill!

Yes, basically.

There are probably better abrasives that could be shaped, like "Kratex" or whatever such polishing tools are called, but I'm a little fatigued with oil pumps now, and the Schebler Wars have people extremely anxious with me on three continents.

...Cotten

Bill Pedalino
04-06-2012, 04:28 PM
Cotton,

I found what appears to be a good source for the mounted abrasive points - Western Abrasives (Google search). I spoke with a very good technical guy who made some suggestions as to the best products for the old cast iron bodies. I ordered a couple of different types of material and I'll dress them down and see how each abrasive material works. Now all I need to do is get the cross shaft back and installed into my South Bend 9A so I can dress the stones, so I can grind the oil pump seat, so I can get the '47 fixed, so I can.....etc...etc...etc...