Vegas Auctions

[BPK!!]

After spending much time viewing the three different auction companies who were doing three different auctions basicly at the same time-heres my 2 cents!
Bonhams auction was Thursday evening and they hit most items out of the park. Where they find the folks who spent that amount of money?
Mid-America auctions seemed to be working hard at thier 3 day event as always, some bikes thru the roof, others flat, actually if I remember correctly most were flat.
But, the biggest surprise to me was RM-Auctions America, they couldn't sell anything, and if I had a m/c consigned with them, I'd be pissed! Reason, they were pushing the bikes thru like crazy fast, and to me it looked like they weren't even trying or cared if they sold? And what the heck is the term, sold on a "if"? They couldn't get it done on the stage, so they leave the high bidder hanging until they work out what ever angles they can? I wasn't impressed!
Curious how others saw it? I could go on, but that would be "my 3 cents'-BPK!!

[sirhrmechanic]

Interesting about RM.... because they are really hitting it out of the park on car stuff these days. RM and Gooding are really the up-and-comers in the auction market. Christies is gone since Miles Morris left and Bonhams is 'old' auction house, but can be very staid and conservative. That said, they do bring out the big $.

The "If" means that the buyer and seller are close and, as you said, they can't close the deal on the stage. They will go into off-line negotiations and often the auction house will cut into their buyers/sellers premiums in order to bring the buyer/seller together. Sometimes items sell 'below' reserve, but the auction house knows they can make up the difference by lowering their commissions, and a sale with some commission is an inherent win for their pocket book and for their all-important 'sale percentages.'

I noted in Bonhams online that they were showing sale prices 'INCLUSIVE of buyers premium.' That's unusual, because they usually kind of down play that. The buyers premiums can be as high as 17 percent (on top of your bid price.) Add to that a sellers premium, which can be double digits. And no-sale premiums (reserve fees) that can be equal to the sellers premium of the amount reached on stage and there is a lot of money made by auction houses. Note that for sellers... everything is negotiable. Especially if you have a collection. "Anchor" collections can negotiate sellers fees down to a very small amount if the items will be draws.

Also, can't speak for mid-America and RM. But I always found the prices in the Bonhams catalogs to be low. Their estimates are almost always exceeded. Not just in Bikes, but in arms, watches, etc. This both makes the sellers feel like they got more than the expect... and it draws buyers in looking for a bargain.

It's an interesting game.

I've always contended that the best bikes (and cars and watches and guns) change hands quietly, with no fanfare on word of mouth and handshakes. The auctions (especially Barrett-Jackson) are the last refuge of the scoundral car/bike. If it's shiny pretty and looks good on a stage, it's gone w. high fever-pitched bidding price and 'no comebacks' against the seller. The good stuff, trades between gentlemen and enthusiasts on a handshake. Certainly, the best cars change hands that way. Probably true for the best bikes.

Just some random coffee-fueled ramblings. Back to my java.

Cheers,

Sirhr

[rwm]

some auction houses get 22% if you bid online. and some will take 3% more if you use a credit card.auction houses have a lot of fees most folks don't know about.(photo, no sale, insurance, and online can all be added fees) i deal with auctions almost every day.and i cant say any thing nice about any of them.

[Tom Lovejoy]

I went to see two antique friends this weekend, tried calling two more. All were at the auction's in Vegas, seems like they are attracting allot of folks. Kind of sounded like, some are enjoying the gitogether too. Even though their not there to bid on anything, I was surprised.

[Tom McBride]

I attended the LV auction last year (1st and last) and found it to be too Loud, too Overpriced, & too Pretentious, and not at all a representation of the sport and people that I have enjoied all these years.
Hell, I enjoied the ride there and back better than attending having gone thru Joshua Tree and taken Route 66 turu Amboy and stopping off at the evaporative salt ponds in the Mojave!
....Never Again~

[c.o.]

Meanwhile in Gettysburg... http://www.reddingauction.com/

[silentgreyfello]

I attended the LV auction last year (1st and last) and found it to be too Loud, too Overpriced, & too

Tom, Maybe you are getting too old? :) Seriously though, it's not for everyone. It's a show, but also a place where you get to see lots of neat stuff in one place. If your expectations are that it's going to be an atmosphere like a swap meet, you'll walk away disappointed. If your expectations are to see some cool stuff, then it may be for you. It is what you make it.

[amsracing]

I have been to the Mid America auction last year and the year before...sold 3 bikes the 1st time and 6 bikes the 2nd time.. all sold at or above reserve's ,but this year AMA Supercross was in our home town on the same weekend.....I'm a MX'r at heart so... sorry can't miss it...1 modern race a year is all I go to and it's Phx....they moved the weekend to put them selfs inline with the Barrett Jackson auto auction in Scottsdale,Az. this weekend for the oversea bidders........oh well...see about next year...but I must say that it is very well run (the M/A auction) it's not a swap meet.....what it is a great place to take the wife or your best friend and look at a wonderful assortment of machines under 3 roofs! and not only that I have seen friend sI have lost contact with for over 20 years there also......70's bumper sticker...."Different Stokes for Different Folks" I wish I have a clone..he would have been in Vegas Dave Boydstun

[Tom McBride]

Tom, Maybe you are getting too old? :) Seriously though, it's not for everyone. It's a show, but also a place where you get to see lots of neat stuff in one place. If your expectations are that it's going to be an atmosphere like a swap meet, you'll walk away disappointed. If your expectations are to see some cool stuff, then it may be for you. It is what you make it.
Point taken. ;-)

[Chris Haynes]

I don't understand having auctions on Thursday. Most folks get there on Friday.

[Rub]

I don't understand having auctions on Thursday. Most folks get there on Friday.
If you are getting there on Friday you cannot afford the Thursday auction so they don't care!!:D
Robbie

[amsracing]

the big money was spent on thursday...? why the others didn't do so well.....most collectors are retired so whats wrong with thursday..early bird catches the rare bikes..maybe who will have a auction next year on wednesday...? you heard it 1st here..LOL

[PRG]

Howdy chaps,

Would appear logical to correlate tha amount of action on Thursday to the annoying trend of AMCA meets ever earlier non-official start times. and feverish swap meet action, to this multi-auction event but it's a different set of circumstances. Heavyweight collection (DuPont), in aesthetic poor condition for the most part (implying possibly cheaper prices) and listed at very low estimates giving the impression one might be able to swoop in for killer deals like they were at a rural estate auction.

This auction was well publicized well in advance. Some came from very far (England) intent on bidding on a single machine only to find themselves among many equally well informed bidders thereafter requiring more gusto to deliver the knockout. Bonhams was good at sensing these matchups and milked them as much as possible. Not the case at the others were consignments were herded across the stage too quickly. A costly situation for horror stricken owners forced to buy their no reserve machines back themselves in some cases.

Don't follow pre-70 Triumph Bonneville prices much but by marque, these were absolute deals in a current market where they are stable and strong.

[Chris Haynes]

A costly situation for horror stricken owners forced to buy their no reserve machines back themselves in some cases.

Why would an owner be forced to buy thier own machine? They own it, not the auction company. If it doesn't sell they take it home.

[Rub]

PRG stated,

A costly situation for horror stricken owners forced to buy their no reserve machines back themselves in some cases.

Chris Haynes replied,

Why would an owner be forced to buy thier own machine? They own it, not the auction company. If it doesn't sell they take it home.

Basically because on a no-reserve auction and with a sell agreement signed with the auction company and them holding the title, if the bidding never takes off you are forced to accept what it got to or buy it yourself. At that moment in time it is no longer yours if you entered into an agreement with them, it is theirs! So fair warning, don't sell at auction without a reserve or take your chances!
Robbie

[sirhrmechanic]

^^^^

And you end up 'paying yourself.' But you ALSO pay the buyers and sellers fees that can end up at 30 percent or more of the bike's price. It's another way that you need to be careful with auctions.

The Barrett Jackson auctions have a LOT of this going on. Along with about a 20 percent 'no sale' rate. Hammer falls, but bidder decides to default and walk out on his deposit, rather than pay the hyper-inflated price the item made in the heat of the camera lights. They get their moment in the sun for the price of a deposit and don't end up with a $300K former Rental car Mustang or some silliness.

Cheers,

Sirhr

[c.o.]

More Vegas thoughts...

http://thevintagent.blogspot.com/2012/01/las-vegas-2012-trends.html


http://thevintagent.blogspot.com/2012/01/las-vegas-2012-auctions-america-rm.html The original paint Cleveland is awesome!!!!

[sirhrmechanic]

Very nicely done report and I think he hit virtually every nail on the head. I was not aware of the takeover rumors. Interesting, but not surprising.

Of note, in the antique car world, we have seen a massive influx of $ into the 'investment grade' vehicles. These are the beautiful, the rare, the one-off, the original... the stuff that never goes down in price, but also rarely goes 'bubble.' Simply put, these days the return on tangible assets is greater and safer than the return on paper assets or liquid cash. A vintage Bentley might as well be gold... and Bernie Madoff (sp?) can't drive off in it.

Vintage bikes are no exception to this... the same with high end firearms (have you looked at Colt, Purdy or Winchester prices lately), or watches, etc. Certain bikes have a cachet to them that lets them maintain their value through thick and thin. And if the dollar loses value, the price of the asset just goes up... It's intrinsic value doesn't seem to go away and there is almost always a market for it.

This state of affairs always sparks passion in the collector community as 'average Joe's' can get priced out of the market and bikes disappear into collections. I know I won't be buying a Brough Superior now or ever... And it is a shame when bikes, cars, etc. get squirreled away in 'investment' collections that don't get ridden, shown, shared, etc. I am a huge believer in "Ride 'em don't Hide 'em". It is also unfortunate that sometimes young or less-financially-endowed enthusiasts struggle to enter the hobby. There is no real answer to this... as market forces will continue to be market forces.

That said, I am also a big believer in the 'where there's a will, there's a way' philosophy and my small collection of bikes is a tribute to sweat equity and turning non-runners and neglected machines into 'riders' for short money. I never thought I would have a Knucklehead... but thanks to a bike that noone else seemed to want, a bit of vision, elbow grease and a lot of weekends and time invested, I have one that I am very proud of. So it's possible, even in a market that appears to be un-enterable to get the bike you want. You just may have to work harder at it.

I'd also point out that these things are still turning up in barns. Dozens a year. And not just bikes. Not a month goes by when we don't get a call about a 'barn find' or 'garage find' or 'warehouse find' Rolls-Royce or Bentley. Just miles from us, a friend bought a 1920's Cadillac... with a SKI conversion kit for winter use. This car was as-new, complete preservation car. Covered and in a barn since 1931.

One would think that every crevice in America has been scoured clean by now. But I don't think we've even scratched the surface.

For those who haven't read it, the old "Easyriders Publications" book "Half-Priced Harley" was one of the best guides I ever read when it came to acquiring interesting old vehicles. And to putting them together. Yes, the technical information is a bit dated and when I first read it in 1989 or so, a lot more original parts were readily available (I used to order vintage stuff right off the shelf from Tilly HD in, I think, Statesville, NC. And Wilkins HD in Vermont had parts dating back to the '40s.). But the advice and concepts are something that every aspiring vintage bike restorer/owner/rider should at least read.

Just some caffeine-fueled thoughts for a Saturday morning. I really need to cut down.

Cheers,

Sirhr

[BPK!!]

Cory--Thanks for the Vintagent blog link! Found it very interesting-appreciate you digging it out and sharing the fruits of your labor--BPK!!

[c.o.]

Cory--Thanks for the Vintagent blog link! Found it very interesting-appreciate you digging it out and sharing the fruits of your labor--BPK!!

No problem BPK!!! I thought it was relevant to the thread and it really doesn't take much effort....:D