View Full Version : Competition class motorcycle judging
11-28-2010, 09:06 PM
The new rules are out for judging home built racers. Factory built racers are not included in this. In order to be judged the machine must be 35 years old. You must have documentation (and there are different types asked for) that they were operated in a contest of speed, acceleration, or handling in the period of their manufacture. There are a lot more things involved in documenting a competition machine but this is the basic rule. So if someone builds a new racer from parts today it won't be eligible for judging.
This is very encouraging. Hopefully it will result in more home brew competition machines showing up at meets!
I don't think it is all that encouraging. Most of the old race bikes I know of despite having been used in the period have little or no documentation that would allow them to be judged. Old time racers could have cared less about saving tech slips, programs or entry forms, the sort of documentation I suspect will be wanted. What exactly are those "different types" of documentation Chris? And what about the VIN numbers? Half the old racers I know of have been re-stamped at some point in their lives!
11-29-2010, 08:29 AM
Robbie is right about the vin #s. They had to match your AMA card with the number you were registed to race. AMA Chief tech scrutineer in the early 50s, John Esler, of Grand Rapids Triumph, bragged about DQ-ing Harleys (which he hated) over vin #s because a guy on the harley team would blow an engine in a previous race or heat, and his replacement motor numbers wouldn't match. Harley racers were wise to it and hammered more number pads with numbers that didn't belong, than people would ever believe. All of this is well remembered by the racers who are still alive if you talk to them.
All of that is real history, and racer vins are looked at like it needs to be registered for the street, not just by judging, but most of the club
11-29-2010, 03:53 PM
Oh well. Guess now I need only parts that fit, regardless if they are "correct". I misunderstood "Home Brew". I knew they were custom, not factory bulids, but I didnt think they had to have "provenance". I have only been at this a short period, but have already seen pics of dozens of wonky numbers, including my own! 28 blank blank then a few more numbers. No "B", "BA", "A", "AA"..... nothing. I think there are now a lot of new racing "ornaments" out there. At least one for sure! That said though..... there seem to be a lot of number and letter stamp sets for sale recently.
Ouch, I never thought about the points made by Robbie and Tom when I posted. This could end up being a real mess on the judging field.
11-29-2010, 08:01 PM
HONOR COMPETITION CLASS
A new and exciting judging class debuts in 2011 with the introduction of the Honor Competition Class. Uniquely designed for a very special breed of antique motorcycles, the Honor Competition Class is reserved for competition modified antique motorcycles with documented competition history. Standing apart from competition motorcycles restored to factory specifications, this class of machines comes to the judging field with their credentials revealed in their race history and the multitude of modifications that made them competitive. Authentic competition “as-raced” antique motorcycles stand as a testament to the heritage of motorcycle competition. For owners and spectators alike, the Honor Competition Class affords an opportunity to promote the preservation of racing history. This special class provides these important motorcycles a well deserved avenue for recognition.
The AMCA Honor Competition Class is reserved for competition modified antique motorcycles 35 years or older that were operated in a documented contest of speed, acceleration, or handling in the period of their manufacture. The competition history of the motorcycle must be at least 35 years old. Modern replicas and motorcycles with only modern race history are ineligible. Eligible contests include dirt track, speedway, road racing, hill climb, TT/motocross, drag race, trials, etc. All entrants must be certified as eligible for judging through a formal application process before the motorcycle can be judged at a designated AMCA National Meet. All motorcycles must have original crankcases with representative serial numbers that clearly correspond with provided documentation. All entrants must demonstrate operational capacity by starting and running in an official demonstration area. All motorcycles must have period authentic engine and frame/rear suspension. Motorcycles with engine/frame combinations from different years of manufacture must provide documentation that the motorcycle competed in that configuration.
CERTIFICATION FOR JUDGING
Before a motorcycle can be judged it must be certified as eligible for judging in the Honor Competition Class. This is accomplished through an application and review process. First, a request for certification is filed with the Chief Judge. An application packet with all required documentation guidelines and forms will then be provided. The required documentation will be reviewed by the Honor Competition Committee, which will authenticate the documentation and certify the motorcycle for judging. Upon notification of certification, the owner may enter the motorcycle for judging at any designated National AMCA meet. The following information must be submitted for review and certification by the Honor Competition Committee.
1. Contest Documentation
To be certified documentation pertaining to one or more recognized contests is required. The year(s) in which the contest(s) occurred will be known as the Period of Documentation. Qualifying documentation may include such things as official race entry forms and results, pictorial evidence, press releases, etc., that clearly identify the name, date, and location of the contest and the entry of the motorcycle in the contest. Other information, such as the name of the owner and rider and the finishing place in the contest, is also helpful.
2. Photographic Documentation
The applicant must supply at least two identical photographs of the motorcycle taken in the Period of Documentation. At least two current opposing view photographs of the motorcycle must also be provided. One certified copy of the Period of Documentation photo will be returned and must be included in the judging portfolio that accompanies the motorcycle on the judging field, along with duplicates of other photographs sent with the application.
3. Ownership History Documentation
The applicant is required to certify that he or she is the present owner of the motorcycle represented in the photographs and accompanying documentation. A listing of previous owners is also helpful, but not required.
Honor Competition motorcycles are evaluated against the standard of Period-of Documentation Authenticity as defined below:
Period-of-Documentation Authenticity: A component is considered to be period authentic if it accurately represents the component as it was used, accepted, and/or sanctioned in the Period-of-Documentation. Except for engine crankcases, components may be original equipment or reproduction. The pictorial documentation provided through the authentication process will be relied upon heavily to establish the period standard; thus, owners are encouraged to present as many detailed pictures as possible. Components that are deemed to be inauthentic receive a deduction in the judging procedure.
Components are judged for Period-of-Documentation Authenticity in each of the 20 categories listed on the Honor Competition Class National Meet Judging Form, for a total possible score of 20. An all-or-none rating is applied. A one (1) point deduction is applied if the component does not appear entirely period authentic. The total possible score (20) minus deductions determines the award. Thus, an entirely period authentic motorcycle receives a total score of 20 and the highest award.
Winners receive an official certificate and a unique motorcycle Honor Medallion that incorporates a star rocker that corresponds to the point total attained through judging. Four award levels are attainable, ranging from a One Star rating (lowest) to the top honor, a Four Star rating. Owners can have their certified competition motorcycle judged multiple times to earn the Four Star Honor Medallion. The following summarizes the attainable award levels:
19-20 POINTS: FOUR STAR HONOR COMPETITION AWARD
17-18 POINTS: THREE STAR HONOR COMPETITION AWARD
15-16 POINTS: TWO STAR HONOR COMPETITION AWARD
13-14 POINTS: ONE STAR HONOR COMPETITION AWARD
12 POINTS OR LESS: NO AWARD
An application for certification is secured through the judging preregistration page on the AMCA web site or through The Antique Motorcycle. Other inquiry should be directed to the Chief Judge.
11-30-2010, 06:27 AM
why bother to even enter your bike into the judging when the club first started the new judging system in the 1990's I entered my 1924 jd (I'm 5th owner since new) it was found by lou lichfer (he bought it from the original owners sunny days fram upstate ny) and sold to doug tinerkpole (he restored it in 1970) my friend rick bought it of doug and I traded money and 86 full dresser to rick for the steel wheel jd,well when it came to the judging field it was unfit for judging,(had chrome tape on the throttle and spark advance controls and a front fork that had been reinforced for sidecar use)before the judging change it was a winner everyplace I showed it. everyone who see its thinks it original paint ,I wont ever enter any bike I own into the judging be cause of the way its handled, most of the bike's now a days are way over restored.
I've been around the club for 30-35 yrs my bikes are from 1902-40-- 15 of them made before 1924 I didn't inherent any of them, just worked to make a dream come true of having a line up of early racers,AND THEY WILL NEVER BE IN THE JUDGING BECAUSE I ALREADY HAVE THE TROPHY'S
1909 MERKEL TWIN
1910 YALE SINGLE
1915 POPE TWIN
1915 HARLEY TWIN
1916 HD TWIN
1917 HD TWIN
1918 POPE TWIN
1918 POPE BIG SINGLE
1921 HARLEY FD (277 MADE THAT YEAR)
AND THE LIST WHILE CONTINUE TO GROW
11-30-2010, 07:31 AM
Forget the judging, if a bike makes it through that minefield of documentation, it should get a medal immediately. Just sayin.....:D
11-30-2010, 08:20 AM
Yeah.....I'm sure like....3 or 4 bikes on the planet will qualify for that class.
11-30-2010, 08:25 AM
What a JOKE!
WOW !!! I thought that original parts were getting hard to find, How hard is iit to find this s**t ??? "official race entry forms and results "
12-01-2010, 11:43 AM
As a member of the Judging Committee that came up with this new class, I can attest to all the well meaning, hard work that was poured into this catagory. For over a year, guys like Toney Watson, Bruce Linsday, Peter Reeves, Steve Slocomb, etc, plus a full array of contributing ex-racers have been pounding this all important facet of our history out to better appreciate its' signifigance.
I can fully understand Billy's concerns, due to his past experiences from early days of the Clubs Judging. Those days are long gone now, as the Club is constantly striving to improve the system. The criteria for our judging is based on how the machine left the factory for the Dealer. Within these guidelines, only a factory works machine would qualify for this type of judging. Thus, a lot of true, historic racers, that did not exit the factory as such found themselves non-judgeable.
To rectify this, and recognize the importance of these historic racing machines, the new Honor Class was formed after much discussion. A bike like Ed Kretz's Daytona winning #38 was not a factory racer. It was modified and run in the era. This bikes still exists, and is well docuemented; a perfect example of the ultimate praise this class has to offer. I consider it more of an honor than achieving Winners Circle in regular judging.
Now, any, and all of the bikes that ran back in the day are eligible for this catagory. Docuementation is the key, and usually period photos, and mentions in racing programs still exist. Then the bike must be in fit racing trim of the period it was raced. This is an effort to keep "faux racers" from stealing the limelight. Sure, anyone can grab a basket case Power Plus, strip it down, throw a repro 8 valve top end on it, and a set of down bars to call it a "Racer". These faux bikes may be cool, but a real, period racer, they are not. Niether is the HD 45 that one throws on alum rims, a Barnes Hub, modern flat track bars, and goes on the Davenport 1/2 mile. A cool bike yes; a historic racer, no.
Let's back up, and say we just found out that this current 1/2 miler 45 was once owned my John Does grandfather, and he used to hit the tracks back in his day. Then all it may take is a photo of said bike, some form of proof on the #s or of ownership during the time of the photo; docuementation, then the bike takes on a new meaning! Say it's a 1947 WL, and was raced up until 1955. Then the bike should represent that period of it's carreer; no disc brakes, no current, or modern stuff newer than when it last ran. Oh, and the cut-off of when it last ran, is the same as our Clubs eligibility; 35 years ago. So if the bike never stopped racing, and is still currently racing, we don't want to see anything newer than stuff from 35 years ago on it.
We're after real racers here, not fakes, or modern replicas. When you're visiting a museum, or bidding at an auction for something like Shrimp Burns' racer, you want to be seeing the real thing, the real history, not a reproduction. If you're in the middle of trying to buy your local home town hero's old racer, you want proof that it's THE actual bike, not some "created" masterpiece. You'd want proof that it's the right bike.
I fully realize that judging is not for everyone, and is a very difficult & thankless job. Judging is an easy target for people to complain. But the bottom line is preserve the machine for future reference. Period.
After the un-popular judges are dead & gone, and the machine survives to continue the story correctly & accurately, then mission accomplished.
We're always looking for answers...I'd call that one (Red Fred) a good one.
12-01-2010, 05:03 PM
So what about the 42WLA that was put into dirt track trim back in 1947. It was found in a barn where it has been resting for the past 60 years. The owner is long dead. He never registered the bike as it wasn't ridden on the street. There are no pictures as his uncle threw all that stuff away after he died. There is a race program with his name in it. But the serial number of the bike is not in the program. The current owner of the bike has contacted the AMA to get information on the race in the program and the AMA tells him there are no records from that era. How does that bike get judged? :(
12-01-2010, 05:49 PM
The AMA isn't the end of the line here. But I understand the dillema. One has to scratch up as much proof, and docuementation one can for this. Otherwise, every one who owns an old Porche will be claiming it to be the ex-James Dean car.
Each & every Competition Class entry must be submitted to the Chief Judge for registration. He will consider all applications, and run it past a committee for eligibility. Try and think of the glass as half full.
I would say that for every time we come across a situation like you dipict, we would have successfully identified 20-30 imposters, thus glorifying the true competition bikes that do have their history intact. I don't think we will run across too many situations of un-proven machines; at least I hope we don't. This is a new system, it's meant for the best, and we will learn as we go, as in everything in life. Like I said before, it's very easy to critisize the judging, and a few worthy bikes may fall through the cracks with this, but hopefully the genuine machines are better recognized with this method. The goods should overwhelmingly out-wiegh the bads. But I realize that a lot of people are hell-bent on bads.
Besides, digging up the info, is half the fun!
12-01-2010, 06:55 PM
How does that bike get judged? :(
By how much FUN you have owning and Riding it. Wht do people feel the Need to be Judged?
Well I guess this answers some of my questions, (although the vin # question seems to have been avoided!). It appears that the years of trying to find period correct bits to finish a good example of a class"C" or privateer racer has been for naught. I suppose I will go on to plan B and just build them to AHRMA specs and race them and forget about showing them for this club! Even though acquiring an engine here and a frame there was how many period racers did it I see that doesn't fit well with the formula laid out. Too bad, lots of folks like this old junk. But then now it appears to have become just old junk! Might see you on a track, won't be seeing you on a judging field!
12-02-2010, 08:13 AM
History loses again.
I'm confused. If I find a Chrome-Moly 45 frame, a 49WR motor, a narrow clutch, etc, and put it together to make a factory WR, will I still be able to have it judged as original? Obvoisly won't be any racing history on it as this bike.
The way I read it is that the new competition rules only apply to privateer type machines. Chris said
Factory built racers are not included in this. in his first post. So if you built a WR (with chromemoly frame it would have to be in dirt track trim), it would have to comply in every aspect to a catalog machine. No owner, sponsor, or dealer modifications allowed. And it would be judged in regular fashion, not the new competition class. That is all clear as mud right! And no provenance would be required, only that it complies exactly to standard "as built" specifications as listed in period sales info or factory photos.
At least that is how I understand it, but I am often just as wrong as the next guy!
12-02-2010, 11:09 AM
This is exactly why I wish Chris hadn't jumped the gun, and spilt the beans. He wasn't on the Judging Committee. So his initial reaction was a knee-jerk, complete with HIS interpretation of the new class. Everyone on the Judging Committee, who worked very hard for over a year, had enough respect to wait, and let the Chief Judge announce this exciting new facet of our effort to preserve History. Hopefully Steve Dawdy will chime in with the official announcement, complete with an explaination, as only he is worthy of fully explaining it at this point. He is working with Bill Wood, to make this announcement a biggie, through the web site; this has been the delay in us getting the news.
So in the meantime, we are all on the same team, please think positive here. I think this new class is a great way to honor true competition machines.
I'm outta here for a few days. I hope the official announcement happens soon, and soothes everyone's fears.
12-02-2010, 03:34 PM
amateur class did not care about numbers.The indian I rebuilt had nos 741 cases never stamped.The bike was raced from 48 to 60 without numbers.owner still alive.The only progragms with serial # I have seen is springfield late 40s & early 50s,and that was pro class
12-02-2010, 06:08 PM
Hopefully Steve Dawdy will chime in with the official announcement, complete with an explaination, as only he is worthy of fully explaining it at this point.
He already has.
I am happy to see the interest and good questions regarding our new class. This is a pet project of mine, so I will admit that I was thrilled to see the Judging Committee and the National Board embrace a model that has been carved out with valuable input from judges, enthusiasts, and the "old-timers" in the racing world.
The most basic reason for this new class is to provide a niche for "as-raced", or competition modified bikes. We realized that these machines simply don't fit under our standard approach to judging in which bikes are evaluated against the factory specifications. These modified to race (win) machines break too many judging rules to earn enough recognition if judged with the stock bikes. Yet, their importance in motorcycling history is obvious
I know this has been a bit confusing, so here's basically what we will have available next year for competition motorcycles. If a factory race bike is in stock factory trim, that is, how it would have arrived from the factory, it can certainly be judged within the stock division along side all the other original and restored bikes. Obviously most such bikes will be in restored condition. If there is an original unmodified WR/KR/Big Base etc. out there, we would love to see it on the judging field.
In contrast, if a bike has been modified to make it competitive, it may be eligible to be judged in the new Honor Class, but it has to prove that it is worthy of this distinction. It must first present some form of ID to our Honor Competition Committee that clearly shows that it raced back in it's day. The committee will review all provided documentation and render a decision fairly, certifying the machine as eligible for judging. Serial numbers, good pictures, historical documents will all be important. Serial numbers, from then and now, will be helpful, but not held up as a determining factor as they are in our stock classes. Race bikes worked for a living, and things happened, sometimes to their numbers. But things will need to be legitimate (representative), in a similar manner to how the bike may have been scrutinized in it's day at the track.
As with all AMCA judging, judges must compare the bike to something (a standard) to decide if it is representative of a machine that really existed. With stock bikes the concept is simple. We compare it to the factory specifications. But what do you compare a one-of-a-kind bike to? In the Honor Competition Class the owner provides the standard in the form of documentation. The bike is then judged against it's documentation (essentially compared to itself) as it existed in the era of it's racing campaign. If a standard cannot be provided because of inadequate documentation, the bike cannot be adequately judged and will therefore not meet criteria for certification. The certification committee will not be able to provide prejudgments of actual or hypothetical cases. Every case will be treated in a very deliberate manner with consideration of all provided information.
The formal description of this new class as posted on this thread is correct and true. It will soon be placed in the judging section for easy access.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.0 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.