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Sport Scout
06-20-2010, 07:47 PM
Purchased a decent square base scout cylinder. It's only fault is one of the base stud holes has the outer half broken off. Any leads to find a well qualified welder to repair the stud hole? Willing to pay for quality.
:confused:

Chris Haynes
06-20-2010, 11:12 PM
Dan Gesick is a certified welder and a wizzard with cast iron.
1073 Honey Run Rd
Chico, CA 95928
530-343-8198

fabercycle
06-21-2010, 12:21 PM
It should be brazed, not welded

T. Cotten
06-21-2010, 05:43 PM
It should be brazed, not welded

With all due respect,
(for after all, I do NOT offer the service...)

Cast iron can often (of course not always..) be flame-welded using piston rings for filler rod.

I guess you would have to see it to believe it.

...Cotten
PS: It works fantastic on Chief frames!

fabercycle
06-21-2010, 08:05 PM
I'm not sayin' that another method won't work, but I've seen alot of weld failures, and harldly any braze failures.

We got a cylinder flange ear braze repaired on our class C race bike, and it's got 3500 miles of full throttle racing without failure.

I like to do what has been proven to work. Come to think of it, I do it for a living and nobody has ever seemed to complain of a failure..............ever.

T. Cotten
06-21-2010, 10:01 PM
Tom!

Most all true pro's that I know (who also laugh heartily at my piston ring filler of course) go straight to silicon bronze or nickel by TIG. Brass is a sin to them.

Both are extremely hard to work with, and far more trouble in the long run.

Cast iron on cast iron is machineable. That means a lot from a practical sense.

Another option that has worked well for me is silver solder. But then I didn't know any better.

Everything has its time and place.

....Cotten

Chris Haynes
06-21-2010, 11:11 PM
A brass fix on a cast iron part won't get by the judges.

fabercycle
06-22-2010, 08:48 AM
Cotton,

Dont' condecend to me, with "most true pros" Screw you, I'm not a pro?

You should consider that the comments you make, toward someone that others respect, may create hard feelings and hurt your buisness.....you seem to be good at that lately.

Tom

fillibuster
06-22-2010, 10:10 AM
For 15 years now, I've been wanting to go to a Bud Redmond New Year's Day cast iron welding party. The method of the purists in my neighborhood will build an igloo-style oven out of fire brick, slowly bring the work up to 2000 degrees or so, then torch-weld in with cast iron rod, trying to maintain oven's effects til welding is complete, then let sweat in the oven for a while, then submerge in vermiculite, or floor-dry, and let things slow-cool there, which should be over 12 to 24 hours to get down to warm-to-touch. The concept with the heat is that even heating and slow cooling will yield the most even distribution of stress areas, and an even reaction to heat-and-cool growth for normal working.
I have friends who have brazed in wrist-pin gouges, and claim several thousand miles of service. Heated to 450 in the oven, .......

Chris Haynes
06-22-2010, 11:56 AM
Dan Gesick did a wonderful job repairing 5 Knuckleheads for me. No visible repairs when he is done. UPS goes to his door.

T. Cotten
06-22-2010, 12:05 PM
Cotton,

Dont' condecend to me, with "most true pros" Screw you, I'm not a pro?

You should consider that the comments you make, toward someone that others respect, may create hard feelings and hurt your buisness.....you seem to be good at that lately.

Tom

Dear Tom,

When I wrote "With all due respect", I meant it.

And when I wrote "Most all true pro's that I know', it excluded you, and millions of others, ONLY because we have never met!

Please overcome your sudden Sergeant's Disease attitude and look at the penetration in the pic I attached.

If I can do it, anyone can.

....Cotten

37EL
06-22-2010, 12:49 PM
Hi, I'm Chris. I don't post too much because I often only know enough to listen, but I'd like to share a link explaining a process for cast iron welding. Midwest Cylinder Head & Machine calls it "Oven Fusion Cast Iron Welding". The process is similar to what Phil described. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7uZhpYH0wY

Sargehere
06-22-2010, 01:31 PM
Dear Tom,

When I wrote "With all due respect", I meant it.

And when I wrote "Most all true pro's that I know', it excluded you, and millions of others, ONLY because we have never met!

Please overcome your sudden Sergeant's Disease attitude and look at the penetration in the pic I attached.

If I can do it, anyone can.

....Cotten

Never one to miss a chance to take a cheap shot, Tom Cotten, "Mister Non Sequitur" (look it up, Tom, it fits you to a 'Tee'), strikes again.
If you shriveled up and sank out of sight, you wouldn't be missed.

T. Cotten
06-22-2010, 02:41 PM
Never one to miss a chance to take a cheap shot, Tom Cotten, "Mister Non Sequitur" (look it up, Tom, it fits you to a 'Tee'), strikes again.
If you shriveled up and sank out of sight, you wouldn't be missed.

Back on topic,

Chris pointed out that brass would annoy the Judges;
I read that mid-'40 was the introduction of square-base Scout Cylinders (Hatfield), but it is unclear when production changed from nickel to enamel, if ever.

Enamel covers brass (silicon bronze, nickel rod, etc.) equally,
but do different metals take electroplate identically?
Electro-less?

I have the impression that they do not, but it may have only been a bad plating job.

....Cotten

fillibuster
06-22-2010, 03:38 PM
Another good source for info is locknstitch

t-bone
06-22-2010, 07:53 PM
i bought a set of square base cyl at oley this year one has nickle on it and casting # 93051 the other is bare cast metal and 93053 casting # i bought them for a 42 sport scout. since tom said mid 40s i,m wondering if they are correct and which is the correct finish if they are. as far as welding goes i replaced alot of the fins with a mig. sometimes ignorance is bliss.

T. Cotten
06-22-2010, 08:48 PM
i bought a set of square base cyl at oley this year one has nickle on it and casting # 93051 the other is bare cast metal and 93053 casting # i bought them for a 42 sport scout. since tom said mid 40s i,m wondering if they are correct and which is the correct finish if they are. as far as welding goes i replaced alot of the fins with a mig. sometimes ignorance is bliss.

T-Bone!

Mr. Hatfield's Scout book cited the middle of the 1940 production year for the first of the different square-based Scout cylinders, so your '42 would certainly have had one of the variations.

I think I remember a restored '41 in the book (it isn't handy) with black cylinders, and no note that it was wrong. That would sure make it easier!

....Cotten

fillibuster
06-23-2010, 11:51 AM
T-Bone!

Mr. Hatfield's Scout book cited the middle of the 1940 production year for the first of the different square-based Scout cylinders, so your '42 would certainly have had one of the variations.

I think I remember a restored '41 in the book (it isn't handy) with black cylinders, and no note that it was wrong. That would sure make it easier!

....Cotten

Square base intro as Hatfield suggests is confirmed also in Iron Redskin (memory tells me), but I'm not certain as to when nickel finish was non-standard but still an option. .. I love nickel, will likely show it on my 40ss, even if my paint sucks! .. screw the paint! .. paint never liked me anyway!

fillibuster
06-23-2010, 12:00 PM
are you there, Gary?
I have a 35-6-7 front cylinder with a very thin sleeve in it, and missing a chunk at a base corner that was poorly welded. (1), I've heard that sleeves for a +.060 bore od and std id are available. (2), Also, I've considered sleeving to under-size and finding a work-able piston for that. (3), Finally, I'd like to read your comments on sleeves silver-soldered into the cylinder, which would (presumably) produce better heat dissipation than a cold joint.
Thanks
phil

starklite
06-30-2010, 05:01 PM
Hi Phil,
Yes the sleeves are available.
Re: Silver Soldering - The mechanic at our old shop Wilson Plank has perfected a method of installing cylinder sleeves and silver soldering them in place.
This past Monday we had an hour long conversation about the merits of silver soldering the intake nipples in a Chief cylinder. He states that the head bolt holes directly over the intake nipple cause a stress rise, and makes that area crack, so he started silver soldering the nipples in place which increases the strength of the nipple/head surface thereby stopping it from cracking when you torque the heads down.
So I'm sure he would be able to repair anything you sent him and it would be down with his attitude towards perfection.

Having said that, he can be a little bit slow in getting work out the door, as he does the work all himself, and he has a lot of work to perform.
His phone number is: 714-447-4636 and he is available most days.

Another good welder who could repair the base of your cylinder would be Jake Junker at Indian Motorcycle News - His price could be high, but probably not higher than Wilsons, but he could get it done in under 4 weeks.
951-678-1583. When we have tough repair jobs we let Jake do the work, and it has always been good.

Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Gary Stark
Starklite Cycle
951-968-3070

T. Cotten
06-30-2010, 05:14 PM
Hi Phil,
Yes the sleeves are available.
Re: Silver Soldering - The mechanic at our old shop Wilson Plank has perfected a method of installing cylinder sleeves and silver soldering them in place.
This past Monday we had an hour long conversation about the merits of silver soldering the intake nipples in a Chief cylinder. He states that the head bolt holes directly over the intake nipple cause a stress rise, and makes that area crack, so he started silver soldering the nipples in place which increases the strength of the nipple/head surface thereby stopping it from cracking when you torque the heads down.
So I'm sure he would be able to repair anything you sent him and it would be down with his attitude towards perfection.

Having said that, he can be a little bit slow in getting work out the door, as he does the work all himself, and he has a lot of work to perform.
His phone number is: 714-447-4636 and he is available most days.



Gary!

I hang on every word Wilson says.
But isn't it the Sport Scouts that have the bolt right over the nipple?

A wrong bolt in that hole is disastrous!

....Cotten

starklite
06-30-2010, 08:19 PM
Yes Cotten - your name was also mentioned in the conversation with Wilson on Monday.

When we were talking about the manifolds, nipples, and leaks he mentioned how you came up with your testing method to check for leaks, and how you did it before he thought of it, and then to see if he could improve it.....

Yes, the Chief head bolts are not directly over the nipple, but close enough in his opinion to need to soldered the nipple in place. It will accomplish two things. Strengthen the cylinder when you bolt the head in place and prevent the nipple threads from ever wanting to leak.
He used to use a high temp copper rtv sealant, but feels the silver solder is the proper method now.

Gary Stark

T. Cotten
06-30-2010, 08:32 PM
Just for the record, I suspect Heron of Alexandria first documented bubble-testing around 40 A.D.

The mystery is why modern minds overlooked for so long.

....Cotten

fillibuster
06-30-2010, 09:31 PM
Gary Stark, thanks for your reply. I should have defined that "35-6-7" as a sport scout cylinder, just in case you thought I was talking about Chief. so my question is, is there a sport scout cylinder sleeve available with a +.060 od and a standard bore? Or am I asking for something impossible?
Thanks again.