"new" barn finds... [Archive]

Chris Border MFG

01-09-2010, 10:52 AM

I just got a call from a friend of mine from the hotrod world. He told me of a "barnfind" car he went to go buy. The pictures were of a mid forties lakes style model A hotrod. Period perfect. Just pulled out of the shed after a almost 60 year nap. He wanted it in the worst way. I dont blame him, me too. When he got there. The car was just as he had seen in the pics. It was not until money changed hands and it was loaded on the trailer that he had a bomb dropped on him. The car was less than a year old. Built to look like an old hotrod. All the right patiena and war wounds. The works. It was a fake.

This brings me to my point. How do the motorcycle groups feel about "NOS" ( new old style) builds. There are some very talented people out there that car build and make a new bike look old. Just like a true barn find. In the car world, If its known that its new up front, its usually accepted. I am not talking rat rods or rat bikes. I am talking true looking " original " bikes.

Just wanted to know the feelings here. We all love the barnfinds. How about new barn posers? Just asking please dont shoot me. :cool:

Gomer

01-09-2010, 11:06 AM

Interesting concept although I find the way your friend found out down right underhanded. But saying that if everyhing was on the up and up and not advertised as anything but a remake I kind of like the idea. I am not sure how this plays out in the long run, in other words, the second or third owner, but somehow I think we will all find out. With the prices these things are bringing making a remake of a certain madel might be the only way a common man can afford one, just like the remake Yenko chevelles.

exeric

01-09-2010, 11:32 AM

Interesting concept although I find the way your friend found out down right underhanded.

I don't understand. What was underhanded on the buyer's part?

panz4ever

01-09-2010, 11:44 AM

How did he not discover it was a fake before buying it. Found a 36 Chevy master Coupe in iowa in a barn. Pretty hard to cover up road dirt under the frame or a few extra cob webs. Restoring a 55 Chevy Cameo that was in a field in Fresno, Ca. Pretty hard to mask the age and wear and tear on old vehicles/motorcycles. Be curious to see some pics if you would like to share them. There is always a lesson to be learned from the misfortunes of others.

Chris Border MFG

01-09-2010, 12:42 PM

I kinda agree with the underhanded part. Its not as hard to mask or make look like an old barn or field item as you might think. I have seen it done on both cars and bikes. I also agree with when it changes hands a few times nobody will know. I dont mean restored either. I mean looks like you just pulled it out of the barn. I will look for some pics to help explain.

Chris Border MFG

01-09-2010, 12:52 PM

As an example. I know of a Yale that was an unrestored original bike. Very nice but one of the frame tubes and seen some very bad repairs over the years. This tube was cut out and replaced with a new one. The area was then painted and striped just like new. Then its was "aged" to match the rest of the bike. You could not tell at all it was ever done. That being said, what would keep someone from doing an entire bike that way? And if it was or is done. How do people take it? The car thing just got me thinking about it. Its done all the time with old hot rods. But I dont know about bikes. I am ok with it as long as its known what was done. If you find 3/4 of a frame and a motor. Then come up with a tank. Why not put it together as an unreastored original. These thing are only that way once. :cool:

Barry Brown

01-09-2010, 01:36 PM

deja vu on this topic . Old time look "patination" has been going on for about 20 years or more from my observations . The first example I remember was an Excelsior that Brad Wilmarth did for Dave Leitner. It was a work of art . Brad also does first class restos.
If that tv show ever gets going it'll be the barns that will be in short supply not the doctored bikes. In Canada most early bikes were registered in the cities and that is where they have been found, ie. in garages and basements NOT barns. probably the same for the USA. I guess "basement find" doesn't have the same ring, sounds more like a serial killer was involved.

INLINE4NUT

01-09-2010, 04:01 PM

Sounds to me like at some point in time someone may have to have lead removed from their knees !!! of course the person had a hardon for the car and thought they were the ones getting over,I guess the old sayings apply,if its to good to be true,Buyer beware !!

motorhead1

01-09-2010, 04:06 PM

Always carry a baseball bat and your bail money when you go out buying.

flat-happy

01-09-2010, 09:28 PM

dishonest is dishonest---there's no gray area unless you're a lawyer or a politician

bmh

01-10-2010, 07:36 AM

I have stated before that this whole "patina job" thing was gonna head this direction. Having dealt with enough antique dealers over the years I have seen the lengths that people will go to to turn a profit. Some people are very crafty at forging and lying. They always have just the right story for the occasion. They are great at knowing what a person wants to hear and very skilled at the art of distraction. These machines always seem to bring nothing but controversy, maybe those that build them live for the drama. I for one would be just as happy if the practice of building new bikes to look like old ones was not something that was tolerated in our hobby. Guess I'll just add that to a long list of things I wish were different in this world. Till then I become even more sceptical every time I go to look at an old bike. The old adage buyer beware has never been better advice.

Dave R

01-10-2010, 09:31 AM

...I have seen the lengths that people will go to to turn a profit....They always have just the right story for the occasion. They are great at knowing what a person wants to hear and very skilled at the art of distraction.

...Bingo !!! Could not have been said any better.

Did you ever stop and think about how those hundreds of collector cars that have suddenly turned up in the last few years.... "with only 8,000 original miles"....

Give me a break. ..."Follow the Money"

jurassic

01-10-2010, 10:22 AM

gee ,maybe if i had actually paid that appraiser,i wouldn't have gotten screwed. http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/3987/cryx.jpg

ratfink

01-10-2010, 06:19 PM

Paying an appraiser is not always the answer.

Years ao, I was looking to buy a '55 Chevy as a daily driver. Found one on line and the seller assured me it was what I was looking for. I hired an appraiser and explained exactly what I was looking for and he appraised the car. With the appraiser's confirmation, I bought the car.

The car was transported up from LA to CT. It arrives and it is a POS. Far from a "daily driver" and a shoemaker's dream. I had no recourse with anyone; the seller was just being a seller and the appraiser stood by his "opinion".

On the topic at hand; a fake is a fake is a fake. And just as bad as "clones". It devalues the true survivors.

c.o.

01-11-2010, 12:02 AM

Chris, unbeknownst to you ,this subject as Barry stated, contains an element of deja-vu for a lot of us. This topic was beat to death some time ago and as you can see by the responses there are some strong opinions regarding "fakes". I've stated this before and some agree and some obviously don't. It seems to me that if the true "originals" could somehow be documented as they show up at meets, eventually a roster of these bikes could be developed and then after that it's up to the owner who brings a new "find" in to prove his bike is the real deal. There are some very qualified folks in this club that are able to smell a fantasy bike a mile away. Having said that I kind of like the "patina" type machines if they are well done. What can I say? I like the "old" look. There are only so many true originals out there and anything after that, whether it's made to look old or is a shiney resto is just a representation of the past. I don't think a "patina" type bike is any different than the mass amounts of bikes that are said to be mostly original that are painted up better than new but are riddled with re-pop or incorrect parts. All one has to do is post an ebay auction here and have folks weigh in on it to see a "so called" original picked apart. So what's more dishonest? A bike that's made to look 100 years old or a blatantly restored machine with re-pop parts that is passed off as a true original? Fellas..... we are into machines that are long past their day. Some great survivors made it but what's left for the younger folks that want a piece of the action? There are a lot of folks that are honest when it comes to their machines. It's just unfortunate that some people aren't.

Chris Border MFG

01-11-2010, 07:32 AM

Thank you Cory. I see now that this has been covered long before I got here. I agree with alot of what was said. Having been in the car world for so long this bike stuff is new even at 10 plus years now. Having been to my first swap meet/ meet at Davenport this last sept. was a real eye opener. I am just blown away by whats out there and the vast amounts of knowledge that everyone shares. That being said. I got to wondering about the "original unrestored, barn find" bikes I saw there and have seen on the Vegas auction site. Made me wonder if they are real as they lead us to believe or are just a pure work of art from someones mind. I too love the old survivors as wel as the shiny office displays. I like them all. I have thought of building my Ex motor ( all that I have of it now ) into a privater racer. As I love the bike. Do I make a shiny display machine or a barn find what if machine? Both are very cool. I would build what I want for me until someone said " I have to have it ". Am I making any sense? I tend to say alot and nothing all at the same time. :o

flat-happy

01-11-2010, 07:45 AM

keep in mind that if you saw EVERYTHING at davenport it doesn't account for even 10 % of what's OUT THERE. most of everything that was ever made still exists somewhere. it's a big planet with many barns and museums.

exeric

01-11-2010, 08:19 AM

Very well said Cory. I was talking to a friend yesterday about judging and issues like this. Jurassic proposed the most sensible solution I've yet heard, which is for the club to document authentic bikes. If someone is afraid of the scrutiny they will be conspicuous by their absence from a sanctioned database. Personally, I don't feel sorry for anyone that gets hosed in any deal. If you're over 30 years old, with no guns pointed at your head, and fall for a bad deal, you're getting what you deserve. Con artists are successful because they play on the greed of their victims. Policing stupidity and gulibility is not under the jurisdictuon of the AMCA. If you live in California or Florida, you hear about this stuff all of the time, and the victims are always expecting more than they are entitled to. There's no point in going over this well worn path other than to say; lighten up and enjoy the hobby.

Barry Brown

01-11-2010, 08:41 AM

I would think that most victims of scammers want justice not pity and that keeps lawyers in the antique auto world busy . There used to be a page devoted to these matters in Car Collector magazine and I found it fascinating reading. Some Ferraris , Bugattis and Mercedes SSk's have become so valuable in some instances they have been cut up and made into more than one. Recently an italian judge ordered a couple of multi million dollar Ferraris destroyed because of cloned serial numbers etc. I am sure there are scumbags looking on our hobby right now as a "soft touch" for fakes along with their bretheren the auction scumbags .
There is no serial number or other authoritative registry for Cyclones and Merkels etc. The Brough Superior club has had a knowlegeable "registrar" for years but his task has become more difficult with all the clone bikes being made although an effort to document these bikes is underway.
Racing more sporty versions of cars are generally worth more than their pedestrian road going cousins and that motivates fraud just like all the "board track" racers that have been made using "street" engines .
I think a "registry" is a great idea if it is properly implemented.

Northwoods_Maine

01-11-2010, 10:00 AM

As someone new to the hobby I'd love to see a registry that all AMCA members could access. Don't we already have much of what would be required already in place with our judging sytem? Wouldn't it be just a matter of creating a database that reflects the scores achieved and judges comments of all bikes being judged. The database could be driven by Year, Make, Model, engine #, frame # (depending on whether it's appropriate for that particular bike, etc. The judging sheets with comments should also be scanned and included in the registry. I don't mean to oversimplify the process, but it seems like the club already has the 'vehicle' by which to implement such a registry database. It should include all bikes that have been judged - good, bad, or otherwise.

I know that there are many among you that are so experienced and knowledgeable that you'd trust no one's opinion but your own before you purchase a bike, but for many of us who don't yet have that level of expertise, a database you could log on to and look up the pertinent judging information/results would be a huge help in determining the value you'd place on any given bike that you may be thinking of purchasing. I would think that this one "tool" would be viewed as a very significant benefit to membership in this club. Just one guy's thoughts.

D.Mac

01-11-2010, 01:28 PM

Chris is right about this "faux-patina" thing going on in the car world for some time. Many of these cars are masterly done, and would fool anyone that doesn't look close. Thats the key, looking close. You know what "state of the art" was in the '50's? There were no wire welders, even lots of show cars built back then were poorly detailed under the hood and certainly in the chassis area. Wiring was often terrible, exausts cobbled etc. A car or bike that been sitting for 40, 50 or more years is almost always going to have some uglys, bad or micky-mouse repairs, cobbled and or bare wires, caked grease and dirt, scrapes and dings on the bottom of frame rails or other parts- and real rust. Human nature being what it is, when we come across an alleged survivor, we want it to be a great score, and it can cloud our reasoning. Look close, most fakes are too nice, it's relatively easy to patina paint, but it's hard to fake 50 years of crud and rust.
Doug.

kval

01-11-2010, 10:47 PM

Northwoods
yes some of the judging information is in a database, the Make, Model, Serial # and score is recorded along with some other information. BUT the judges comments is something else, if you want see me after judging and I will show you a sheet, then you try to understand the handwriting. anyone interested in buying a bike that is claimed an AMCA (whatever award/points) can always contact me and I will look up the bike for you. PLEASE!! do not swamp me with requests just to find what a bike scored, because you are curious:D

As someone new to the hobby I'd love to see a registry that all AMCA members could access. Don't we already have much of what would be required already in place with our judging sytem? Wouldn't it be just a matter of creating a database that reflects the scores achieved and judges comments of all bikes being judged. The database could be driven by Year, Make, Model, engine #, frame # (depending on whether it's appropriate for that particular bike, etc. The judging sheets with comments should also be scanned and included in the registry. I don't mean to oversimplify the process, but it seems like the club already has the 'vehicle' by which to implement such a registry database. It should include all bikes that have been judged - good, bad, or otherwise.

I know that there are many among you that are so experienced and knowledgeable that you'd trust no one's opinion but your own before you purchase a bike, but for many of us who don't yet have that level of expertise, a database you could log on to and look up the pertinent judging information/results would be a huge help in determining the value you'd place on any given bike that you may be thinking of purchasing. I would think that this one "tool" would be viewed as a very significant benefit to membership in this club. Just one guy's thoughts.

schmittm

01-11-2010, 11:53 PM

Northwoods
yes some of the judging information is in a database, the Make, Model, Serial # and score is recorded along with some other information. BUT the judges comments is something else, if you want see me after judging and I will show you a sheet

Northwoods,
A comprehensive database with complete detailed information about every bike that has been judged would be wonderful but it would also be a full time job, first to build it and then to maintain it.

The AMCA holds original unrestored motorcycles in high esteem, they are given as much, or more, attention when judged and shown as the completely restored examples.

Every bike that has gone through the judging process should have a portfolio which contains copies of all of the official AMCA Judging Sheets for each time that the bike has been judged. Maintaining the portfolio is the responsibility of the owner and stays with the bike. If you are considering purchasing a motorcycle and the owner claims that it is an AMCA award winner all you have to do is tell him to "Show me the Judging Sheets". If the bike is ligitimate and the owner is honest he'll show you the portfolio (if he hasn't already, after all he's probably proud of it). You don't need a database, all you need to see are the judging sheets from previous events.

Hopefully our judges will be able to spot a fake original. I would hate to think that we need to add a 3rd judging category: Artificially Unrestored

Mike

exeric

01-12-2010, 06:55 AM

When I mentioned an AMCA sanctioned database I should have mentioned that I was refering to pioneer vintage motorcycles. Motorcycles of the early 20th century are of the greatest historical interest. When it comes to Knuckleheads and Chiefs you're talking about thousands of bikes that have been; and will be, altered. There's no way to keep a record of that many motorcycles. Besides, late model bikes are so well documented in numerous books that a potential buyer can't use ignorance as an excuse for getting hosed. It goes back to what I believe should be the AMCA's position. The AMCA should NOT be a police organization that takes any position on engine numbers or part correctness EXCEPT, in the arena of judging.

Chris Border MFG

01-12-2010, 07:13 AM

I feel I may have not made may original question clear. I agree with all of the info and data base that is being suggested now. Knowledge is power.... My question worded anothe way is this. If a person builds a bike in a very convincing aged, original, ect. way to look as close as possible to and unrestored bike, how do you guys feel about it? Is it accepted and welcomed? Or is it kicked to the corner like the ugly step child.:confused:

c.o.

01-12-2010, 08:17 AM

Chris......build the bike you want, tell the truth about it and I don't think your machine will have to sit out on the corner in the cold......;)

Ohio-Rider

01-12-2010, 08:59 AM

Chris......build the bike you want, tell the truth about it and I don't think your machine will have to sit out on the corner in the cold......;)

Well stated Cory. Being truthful is the key. There is something about this hobby that makes a man's tolerance for bull **** very low.

Remember our club is made up of enthusiast of vintage motorcycles. So new replicas made to look old will always be looked upon with a leery eye. I can personally look at a replica and appreciate the time and tooling it must have taken to create it. But only a rose is a rose. That’s just the way it is.
--Steve

Chris Border MFG

01-12-2010, 09:11 AM

Sounds good guys. I have to agree for the BS part. Life is short enough to have to put up with that too. Play hard, make friends, have fun! Looks like I have a bike to build. :cool:

William McClean

01-12-2010, 10:10 AM

Hopefully our judges will be able to spot a fake original. I would hate to think that we need to add a 3rd judging category: Artificially Unrestored

Mike[/QUOTE]

Maybe there should be an additon to the National Recognition Awards,
Best Clone or the " the Dolly the Sheep Award " , 1st & 2nd . :D

We could have the " Dolly " for the clones and for the abstract period modified we couild have the " Dali "

kval

01-12-2010, 10:27 AM

Hopefully our judges will be able to spot a fake original. I would hate to think that we need to add a 3rd judging category: Artificially Unrestored

Mike

Maybe there should be an additon to the National Recognition Awards,
Best Clone or the " the Dolly the Sheep Award " , 1st & 2nd . :D[/QUOTE]

HEY!!!
how did you guys know about the new "Dolly Sheep Award"???
we have not told anybody about it yet:D

c.o.

01-13-2010, 12:01 AM

But only a rose is a rose. That’s just the way it is.
--Steve

Your right about that Steve. The crappy thing is there's not enough originals to go around. I think maybe that's why folks took up trying to make a new build look old. It was either for nostalgia reasons or to cater to those in dreamland. It is exactly the thought of the tooling and time that it takes to build a bike in the image of the "real deal" that impresses me. They aren't ever going to be quite as cool as an original but a fella sure can have fun on one just the same........:D

Chris, did you get a chance to have a look at this bike? http://www.midamericaauctions.com/showvehicle.asp?VehicleID=18353 This is the kind of work I was referring to. There's also some other great one's out there. These kind of bikes get my ol' imagination workin'........:D

Chris Border MFG

01-13-2010, 06:49 AM

LouieMCman

01-13-2010, 07:46 AM

Hey I think I got the "Dolly" award bike....but most people just call it squalid. Maybe we can add that catagory at the Concourse D'Ordinaire show at the Southern National Meet in May?

*JU

01-13-2010, 12:38 PM

Caveat Emptor still applies.

The vintage cycle world is still evolving compared to... say the Corvette world where volumes of judging information is written and used in judging venues on every year of car. They have two accepted "bodies" of judging NCRS & Bloomington Gold. An award from one of these holds a lot of weight. But that's not to say that the rare "parts" on the car on the day it was judged have not been changed to reproduction parts the day it's sold.

They now have venues for original cars shown in their tattered unrestored state. "Survivor Awards", "Sportsman Awards".

http://www.ncrs.org/awards.html
http://www.bloomingtongold.com/inc.php?link=Restoreitornot
http://www.bloomingtongold.com/inc.php?link=goldcert
http://www.bloomingtongold.com/inc.php?link=survivor
http://www.bloomingtongold.com/inc.php?link=benchmark
http://www.bloomingtongold.com/#

William McClean

01-14-2010, 12:39 PM

Yes I did get to see that bike. It is exactly what I mean. To 98% of the people out there its the real deal. Its also what I was trying to ask about. How does everyone feel about that kind of build? I want and will be building what I call "what if " bikes and wanted to know how they would be taken.:confused:

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle , author of the Sherlock Holmes Mysteries, allegedly dummied up a human skeleton and placed it in a location where a planned road project would unearth it. Upon its discovery it was examined and pronounced ancient. It was hailed as the First Englishman, a link in the chain of evolution, found near the town of Piltdown.

Conan Doyle, involved in the great debate of the age between Scientists and Spitirualists, was hoping to discredit the Scientific techniques used by his opponents. In a short story published under another name Conan Doyle told a tale of a suprisingly similar hoax and gave instructions on how to achieve the Patina by boiling the modern bones is a concoction involving tea to give the desired appearance.

Allegedly his plan was to reveal the truth of his hoax. World affairs and the rise of the Kaiser's navy altered his plan. Concerned about Britains' security and desirous of recieving a post in the minisrty of defense, there, the better to provide input on the dangers of the fleet of UnderSea Boats that was hitting the waves. He felt the revelation of his prank would adversely affect his chances for appoinment.

Piltdown Man made it into the books as Science for several decades. When found Piltdown Man was uneathered with a cricket bat that had been fashioned from a {real } mastodon shoulder bone, the better to lead investigators toward antiquity while ageing the remains.

pem

01-14-2010, 03:17 PM

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=39131

Here ya go!

inrustwetrust

01-14-2010, 06:32 PM

As a buyer, Bonham's auctions are a great place to buy. They are known to sell machines below the reserve price and negotiate with the seller to maintain their "integrity".

cheifrider

01-14-2010, 06:37 PM

i love the avatar !, hence the term opening up a hornets nest?

Barry Brown

01-14-2010, 06:56 PM

As a buyer, Bonham's auctions are a great place to buy. They are known to sell machines below the reserve price and negotiate with the seller to maintain their "integrity".
I DISAGREE. BONHAMS HAS MISREPRESENTED BIKES . I DON'T TRUST ANY OF THESE BIG AUCTION HOUSES. ONE ONLY HAS TO LOOK AT THEIR TRACK RECORD . THEY ARE ABOUT AS TRUSTWORTHY AS WALL STREET BANKERS AND JUST AS GREEDY.

Chris Haynes

01-14-2010, 06:59 PM

c.o.

01-14-2010, 07:03 PM

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=39131

Here ya go!

Well ain't that a dandy? :D They were quite the interesting machine. It looks like the flywheel needs some new rubber......

http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg390/buckboard_2009/Hildebrand.jpg

inrustwetrust

01-15-2010, 05:00 AM

I DISAGREE. BONHAMS HAS MISREPRESENTED BIKES . I DON'T TRUST ANY OF THESE BIG AUCTION HOUSES. ONE ONLY HAS TO LOOK AT THEIR TRACK RECORD . THEY ARE ABOUT AS TRUSTWORTHY AS WALL STREET BANKERS AND JUST AS GREEDY.

That is exactly what I was saying, Barry. I watched at a Bonham auction when they dropped the hammer way below the reserve on a machine and bullied the owner into a taking the new deal. It was explained to me later that they would do this to keep the total sales numbers high so it looked like they were drawing sizable numbers for the sellers at their auctions. The buyer of the machine that sold for below reserve got a great deal.

Barry Brown

01-15-2010, 07:44 AM

It has been discussed here before but it is a fact that Bonhams and other supposedly reputable auction houses take "bids of the back wall"

rwm

01-16-2010, 09:07 AM

i've been dealing with auctioneers for years.these guys can get 6 bidders on something when only 2 people are in the room " too lady with the hat, yes sir you with the watch if this goes any higher sir you may have to trade that nice watch,i got 7000 on the phone,ma'am with the hat ok thanks sold to fellow in the front row with the lady" and the poor guy and is wife have no idea how a $100 chair cost them $7,500 these auction house get 28% of the sale 14% buyer and 14% seller.rates can change on higher price items and for better clients.they charge the seller to place a b/w photo in there catalog and more for color .they charge you to insure your consingnment on thier property.if the go ebay live thats another $100 a lot.
5 years back christie's and shotheby's where hit hard in a class action for price fixin rates.they both gave back millions
smaller auction house will short hammer an item for a friend to buy leaving many bidders shock as to why the lot moved on .I personally show this happen at an auction of indian parts and bikes in pa.if you think the auctioneer use a rapid vioce for your convenience your crazy.if he wanted you to understand what was going on he would talk slower.he has all day.he just wants the best profit for himself.he chould give two sh**s about his consigners!

exeric

01-16-2010, 09:23 AM

This is very informative stuff. I have never consigned anything to an auction and find the whole process to be mystifying, to say the least. How does the Las Vegas motorcycle auction rate for ethics?

20scout

01-16-2010, 09:36 AM

I'm with rwm on this one and have seen this stuff go on for years. One auction I was at had the auctioneer claiming that someone behind me was also bidding on the lot. When I turned around to see who it was, I discovered that there was no one there! We had words later about that.........

.

rwm

01-16-2010, 09:52 AM

most of my dealings have been in antique furniture and bronzes.i do find it odd that they can offer a $100,000 bike with a bill of sale only.i know a bill of sale is good,but for that kind of doe ray me,they should make the seller get a tittle.you can see in the description of the bike they have recreation printed.i 'd like to hear from somebody who had a bike there.it would be nice to let them have 2 weeks to calm down from the auction then tells us how it went.
you could accumulate quite an exspense by taking a bike there .if it don't sell i'm sure they want something.if you place a reseve on your bike and they don't reach it.they want a fee.anybody out there have a bike at this auction? tells us how it went.tells how they charged .

flat-happy

01-16-2010, 10:38 AM

i put one piece in an auction one time and luckily i knew how crooked they were. when they tried to short hammer me i bid on my own non reserve item and luckily won it. that experience cost me $300+ but it was a lesson well learned. i'll never auction anything again. they didn't even try to find bidders in the crowd. later i found out that the guy who came up to me after the auction trying to buy the bike was the brother in law of the auctioneer. i told him that because he was such a crook he didn't have money enough to buy it. man don't they hate it when you tell them that!!!!

c.o.

01-16-2010, 12:37 PM

Check this out......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-onN9RBD4k

Greg H

01-16-2010, 12:59 PM

Amazing, now that is scary!

c.o.

01-16-2010, 11:25 PM

Here's a clip of some of the bikes that were to be auctioned........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYTQqElxElU

Dave R

01-24-2010, 03:25 PM

Some interesting comments by Paul d'Orleans on his blog, concerning the Lake and Jefferson "board track racers" at the Mid America auction:

http://thevintagent.blogspot.com/2010/01/las-vegas-behind-podium-pt3.html

Two other 'star' machines, which had much press and TV coverage (see below), were the Jefferson and Lake (above) Board Track Racers, built by Jeff Haberman (see the story on the Jefferson here). They formed the backbone of our Classic Motorcycle Roadshow display, and we had shot footage of Jeff discussing his family history of the bikes, etc. It all seemed an attractive package, but I had taken a phone call from a very well-connected motorcycle impresario the previous day, who explained the 'word on the street' was the bikes were 'fakes'. Ouch. When they came up for auction, there were no bidders at all, just a lot of histrionics from the team on the floor, and phantom action (perfectly legal, up to the reserve price) from the auctioneer.

Which brings up some interesting questions about Replica machinery... all of which did poorly this year. Haberman's machines were indeed replicas, built around as many original parts as he could find, from blueprints he had diligently uncovered in his search for his own family connection to these machines. In the case of the Lake, only an engine was found, but the Jefferson had original frame and other parts. The catalog description didn't include these facts, which may have left MidAmerica and/or Haberman vulnerable to the accusation of 'fakery'. It is typical of an auction catalog to include the best description possible, and it is sensible to leave out untidy details; any rational buyer expects this, caveat emptor. Perhaps it is time, though, for replicas to be clearly advertised as such in all cases; people regularly buy replica machines at auction for good prices, there is a clear market for them, so why not simply advertise the fact? As my friend Josiah quotes, 'I'm just sayin'

c.o.

01-24-2010, 11:36 PM

I personally admire Jeff's machines for what they are. The historical accuracy is debatable but the effort he put into them should be appreciated. I guess one couldn't say that the auction house was less than honest on their descriptions but they can be faulted for lacking details. I believe there is a market for replicas or "fakes". I also believe they should be advertised as such. There are likely more people on the planet that desire a Jefferson, Harley eight-valve, Cyclone or OHC Excelsior than there are bikes available. The case of the X is there aren't any to be had. If you want one your going to have to settle for a "fake". The part that really bothered me was the thought that these bikes could be displayed in an office or den as an art object. I'd love to see that Lake on the track in Davenport just to see what it could do!

Tommo

01-28-2010, 12:16 AM

This Rudge has sat in a shed for the last 54 years following Dads purchase of it in March 1956.
Never run or ridden in Dads time but now after 3 weeks of tender loving care it's a rider again.
I'm off to the 100 years of Rudge celebrations with it next week.
I'm not sure if it's a Barn Find but it is a runner again after all these years and it's all genuine and not an artifically aged thing.