Replica Early Harleys

[Steve Slocombe]

I guess we've all seen those Timeless bikes which look a lot like a 1910 Harley single. Now the Mid America Auctions catalog for the 14-16 August Pebble Beach auction shows a 1907 strap tank Harley, and you have to read through a page of photos and text before you find 'No one will ever know this bike is a reproduction unless you tell them'. The write-up then say this is one of only eight made, which means seven AMCA Judges could have problems in the future.

[pem]

Somebody spent a lot of time and money on that bike. It's a very nice bike but way overdone for my taste and I couldn't afford it anyway. I saw that "Timeless" had taken one of their 1910 HD replica's and rebadged it as a "Comet". The only difference bewteen the two bikes was the name on the gas tank. I thought that was kind of cheesy so I sent them an email saying so. It no longer is on the web site. In fact I can't find the website now that had the Comet.

Dick

[c.o.]

Interesting find Steve.... It does look a little overdone. I'm not sure I like the way the machine was represented with the "they'll never know unless you tell them" approach. It'll sell to someone with big money and hopefully the history of the machine will be kept honest. I think however you may be right with AMCA judges having their work cut out for them. I personally like the camelback Indians that are up for sale.....

[INLINE4NUT]

Nobody is going to like what I think.... It is not real it should not bring 10 cents its a FAKE!!!! and thats half the problem with the MC world today. a bunch of FAKES!!!

[c.o.]

Your blunt and opinionated Inline! That's what I like about you........:D

[silentgreyfello]

Anybody remember this fugly, cobbled piece of junk on ebay a few years back? I laugh everytime I look at the picture. They claimed "barn find, mostly 1907 harley, blah, blah, blah". It was a chain drive 1914 motor, restamped, bicycle frame, and a very poor bunch of sheetmetal work. I think the new harley museum bought it and put it as a centerpiece LOL. Actually, it shill bid to 20k, then relisted, shill bid to 9k, then who knows what happened to it. Hopefully they still own it.

[INLINE4NUT]

CO I wish to offend noone here just callin it the way I see it .

[Chris Haynes]

CO I wish to offend noone here just callin it the way I see it .

Who is Noone? :D

[c.o.]

CO I wish to offend noone here just callin it the way I see it .

.....and I would expect nothing less...... :)

[c.o.]

Anybody remember this fugly, cobbled piece of junk on ebay a few years back? I laugh everytime I look at the picture. They claimed "barn find, mostly 1907 harley, blah, blah, blah". It was a chain drive 1914 motor, restamped, bicycle frame, and a very poor bunch of sheetmetal work. I think the new harley museum bought it and put it as a centerpiece LOL. Actually, it shill bid to 20k, then relisted, shill bid to 9k, then who knows what happened to it. Hopefully they still own it.


I remember that blasphemy well........ fugly is a very good term for it. I guess they lived by "ya can fool some of the people some of the time". I just can't believe they figured it was done well enough to pass it off....

[INLINE4NUT]

Chris NOone = NO body

[Chris Haynes]

Chris NOone = NO body

I guess you mean no one. Two seperate words. :D

[INLINE4NUT]

Chris some times I forget the SPACE BAR :)

[William McClean]

There is a Bar in Space ? :)

Martian Mai Tai, Cosmopolitan of Venus , RocketMan Boilermakers ?

[Underdoggie]

I know I would not want to go to a bar on Uranis:)

[Rub]

Probably where Noone hangs out!
Robbie

[LouieMCman]

There's more than one AMCA Senior bike out there that is 100% repop except the motor. I thought you needed an original frame and forks?

[bmh]

There's more than one AMCA Senior bike out there that is 100% repop except the motor. I thought you needed an original frame and forks?

The handbook only states that reproduction motors are not allowed. Everything else would be covered under the terms accurate reproductions are permissible, for a restored motorcycle anyway. An original bike I think would be expected to be original. Some very rare and early machines would never be seen as whole and functional machines ever again if not for people reproducing frames and forks etc.

[Steve Slocombe]

I looked up the results of the MidAmerica Pebble Beach auction and see that only 35% were sold, with the American bikes less than that. The Harley 1907 strap tank recreation went up to $110k without meeting reserve, and one of those 1913 eight valve Indian racers was unsold at $35k. Looks like buyers are getting wise to early bikes, racers, 8-valves, Peashooters etc. arriving on the auction block with no provenance.

I heard at Davenport that there were probably more than seven of those strap tank recreations built, and an unknown number of other early Harleys which could be passed off on unsuspecting customers and then put in for judging. My understanding is that judged bikes need original engines but can have repro cycle parts. Original engines might just mean original cases, and the fakers are getting pretty good at producing flawless castings and matching the old number stamps. My concern is that the good name of our Club could be compromised by unwittingly authenticating replica bikes through the judging system.

[rwm]

when ever there is a high profit you will have great fakes

[jurassic]

being a faker ,i guess i should weigh in on this subject,and i think this will be the last time i do so. this subject comes up alot and i always feel compelled to defend,deny,explain,expose,refute,police,and generally accept responsibility for this clubs laziness. sorry but it just had to be said. if you go back thru the archives of this very forum you will see that every real strap tank in the world has been picked ,prodded, and documented for decades ,there are only about a dozen of them,we all know which ones they are. we know the VIN numbers,we know who owned it when,and where it came from,we know which parts were changed and what years they changed em .research my friends! research! i myself tried to start a similar thread documenting the real harley 8 valves,there are less than 10 of them.no one was interested. believe it or not i dont think even 7 real indian 8 valves are still in existence.shouldn't be hard to document 7 bikes. is that not what this club is dedicated to "history" , "motorcycles". is there not a little of that 120 grand a year we pay for floorspace in someone elses museum available to archive what we here on this forum are freely giving you.if we let this inaction continue,then all the guys who can set the historical record straight will be dead. people rely on the club to tell them the truth,should you not know the truth.personally i am done trying to make this horse drink,i guess he aint thirsty.

[exeric]

I think you have pretty well nailed it Jurassic. If the legitimacy of pioneer motorcycle is a concern of the AMCA then the AMCA should keep a registry. Otherwise, if an AMCA member wants a bike judged, they have every right (as a member) to have it judged. I have always contended that the AMCA is not a police organization and has no business setting foot in that arena. However, a registry would ease those problems.

[flat-happy]

hello jurassic---if i may i'd like to add my 2 cents worth. i've been doing this a while collecting restoring buying and selling and this is a little of what i've learned over the last 40 years or so. a lot of people own a few of the parts that still exist, a handlebar here a gas tank there a frame somewhere else. they would all like to own the whole motorcycle but won't give up the piece they own to have someone else end up with the rare bike. they would rather buy reproduced parts or try to reproduce a few of their own and call it original. i even knew a guy who buried parts in the ground for a few months to make the repop parts look original. those people won't tell what they know because the information would tell the truth and then the truth becomes a problem for their bike. they would rather read what someone else is willing to print then try to avoid the truth to legitimize their own few parts better. i hope this is making sense. if everyone brought their parts that they know to be original to one location and assembled what they had a couple more originals might surface from the effort. for that to happened everyone would have to take greed out of the equation and realize that we are all just stewards of these things for a very short time but the bikes live on in whatever condition we leave them in. i just hope that everyone who is connected with producing a fraudulent motorcycle is exposed and remembered as such when the bike is left behind. you cannot change the truth in the slightest way. as far as i know you have never tried to pass anything reproduction off as original and you are doing a great service as a historian and a steward of these old bikes and parts. thank you for that---stillman small AMCA 12332

[c.o.]

Well said fellas. A roster would be a great idea. They aren't building strap-tanks or eight valves in Milwaukee anymore. So putting the few survivors from 100 years and better on a list with the particulars should take the worry away from judges and future judges in the club. The original or restored originals could be recorded possibly during the judging process? After that it can go back to having fun and spending some time in yesteryear! I mean really the guy putting parts in the ground to pull a fast one......who's he really fooling? He's the guy twitching when he tells you it's all original at the antique meet. Jurassic, I appreciate your machines because I have a nostalgic day dreamer mentality. What's the difference in the end from the freshly painted "fake" and the "fake" with the aged look? If I were to choose a machine from those two I'd take the aged one. Just because I like time trippin'.... really how realistic are any of us who love the pioneer machines? The more pieces that can be put together and machines made out of them for people to enjoy the better. The people passing off fake as real are just lookin' at the investment aspect. Others willing to admit repro parts (no matter how original they look) are in it for the fun. Maybe they should put a "replica" class into the judging field. That way people could be proud of the accurate reprodution parts on their pioneer machines. Just another opinion...... I'll run into the bomb shelter now......:D

[knuckleheadmike]

I think the idea of a "reproduction" bike category is worth considering. I'm in the process of determining if my frame is correct for my cases (thanks Steve Little and others). If it isn't then I'm going to restore it to as close to factory standards as I can most likely using the frame I have. But if it means using a reproduction frame I'd still enjoy being judged on my efforts in researching the correct parts to use even if those parts are not original. I also think a registry is a good idea, especially on the early very rare bikes. Plymouth only made I think 14 Hemi Cudas in 1970 and any serious collector can probably tell you where all of the remaining 7 or 8 are and who owns them. It's important to give an original car or motorcycle it's proper designation. If I find that I have a frame that matches my cases then I'd like to see it registered through some official judging process and have it recognized as an "original". Just my 2 cents worth.

[Chris Haynes]

Plymouth only made I think 14 Hemi Cudas in 1970 and any serious collector can probably tell you where all of the remaining 7 or 8 are and who owns them.

One of them is owned by a guy at Disney Studios in Burbank, CA. He drives it to work a couple times a month.

[INLINE4NUT]

The trouble is FAKE is FAKE!! I dont care if the POPE owns one !! It just is not right ! But then again half of what is wrong in our great country stems from Make Believe !!

[exeric]

Lonnie presented the perfect solution but it's obvious that there is a stubbourness in the AMCA that can't be changed. Personally, I choose to defend the craftsmen that have resurrected so many hopeless basket case gems with their perfect reproduction parts. There will always be people of low morals that will try to palm bogus bikes, but if you know what you're looking at you can't be fooled.

[bmh]

Well put Eric, truly it is buyer beware. I've been known to crawl over under and anywhere else the current owner will let me for 2 hours or more before I even decide if I think I might want to purchase the machine. And If I don't know much about what I'm looking at I take someone who does.

[T. Cotten]

Conjuring parts is not a sin. Its a lot of hard work if you can do it well.

But the bottom line is that conjuring provenance is against the law. That's fraud when the piece gets cashed in.

Yet of course, everyone 'says' they never intend to part with their artsyfacts.
And its sure hard to sue an estate liquidation for hearsay.

We should all show great concern when the AMCA perpetuates perpetrators, especially when it makes its way into the hardcopy magazine.
Posterity will mistake it for the real thing, because we said so.

Perpetuating Perpetrators of Phony Provenance for Posterity.
Let's call it the PPPPP Class!

I've got one ready.

....Cotten

[exeric]

If you want to talk Fake then take a look at just about every knucklehead and post war Indian Chief at an AMCA event. The early bikes of pre 1920 vintage certainly have their reproduction parts but that was done to get them ridable again. I don't think anyone would argue that making a Yale run after 75 years of silence, is not a noble accomplishment and a benefit to all of the members that want to see, hear, and smell a motorcycle of historic signifigance. The people that are addicticted to the early motorcycles know what they are looking at and know what parts are rare, what parts are usually missing, and who's making the reproduction. If there is monkey business going on in the world of collectible motorcycles, look at the bikes with recirculating oil systems, i.e. Knuckleheads. There are masters at work making "barn fresh" Knuckleheads. I wouldn't buy a Knucklehead these days, unless I could afford to pay Chris Haynes fee to appraise it.

[pem]

"Posterity will mistake it for the real thing, because we said so."

I believe Mr. Cotten has hit it on the perverbial head. Let the repops/recreations be judged
at the AMCA meets in a special category. You guys decide on the name. If a repop bike is judged, stamp or inscribe the frame with a special number to identify it as a "fake". Most frames in these type of bikes are recreations but so are some motors. Maybe the motors will have to be stamped too. I also realize that there are some very good machinist that would laugh at this as removing stamps from cases and frames can be done.

If you want your repop bike judged you will have to have it stamped. Our club would be the logical authority to verify and enforce this new ploicy.

If nothing is done to identify these bikes, in 50 years when most of us are dead you know somebody will be selling them as originals. I can see it now, a row of 15 1903 Harley's infront
of a row of 25 eight-valves.

Dick

[T. Cotten]

"Posterity will mistake it for the real thing, because we said so."

I believe Mr. Cotten has hit it on the perverbial head. Let the repops/recreations be judged
at the AMCA meets in a special category.
Dick

Oh, Sweet Cheeses.

What's next: A "Replica" Easy Rider Captain America Chopper Class?

My firm position is that even the super-silly un-judgeable Period Modified Class should be abolished post-haste!

I stand with our Founders that the purpose of the judging system is to keep History as pure as possible.

Myself, I was never lucky enough to inherit or afford a judgeable machine, and most likely never shall.
None the less, it would only compromise the history that I do treasure, if the only legitmate sanctioning organization threw the doors wide open.
Pandering to egos, and glorifying counterfeits only opens opportunities for misrepresentation,
fraud, self-serving revisionism, and at the very least, hurt egos and malice toward the AMCA itself.

Enough good-ol'-boy cronyism and politicks has compromised the reputation of judging already!

Isn't there already an enormous industry of magazines, tribal websites, and cable channel pseudo-documentaries fostering new creations?
Does the AMCA really need to tap into that chaos?

Everyone has the right to play with their own toys any way they wish to do so.
And to re-create history to preserve history can be commended by all of us.
But to enfranchise fraud queers the intent of those who laid the very foundations of this time-honored organization.

....Cotten
AMCA #776

[exeric]

I think the original intent of the founders was to get people to bring their bikes out and judging was an incentive to get the compulsive over achievers, and (dare I say) snobs with great collections to do just that. It worked way beyond anyone's expectations and we are the beneficiaries of seeing beautifully restored bikes and super rare machines that would have returned to the earth. They would have returned to the earth without the dedication of those compulsive nuts and the REPRODUCTION parts that we are incredibly blessed with. Not much escapes the AMCA judging system and downright copies are pretty easy to spot. I suspect the outrage is comming from myopic paranoia.

[jurassic]

well there goes the nieghborhood,god help us all. http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/7747/time3.jpg

[Greg H]

Not even street legal!

But hey, for the same $ you could own this:)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Antique-Excelsior-Belt-Drive-1912-Twin-Motorcycle_W0QQitemZ110435686644QQcmdZViewItemQQpt ZUS_motorcycles?hash=item19b67ad8f4&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245

[William McClean]

When the Replica is 35 Years old it will be eligible :rolleyes:

Patina Masters, get to work ! :D

[flat-happy]

looks like someone got a deal---bet it will be in the coast to coast race next year

[kval]

[QUOTE=William McClean;84848]When the Replica is 35 Years old it will be eligible :rolleyes:

Bill
the answer is NO!!!! reproduction motors are an instant DQ:D
and if they try to enter it as a motorcycle made in 2009, it must be a mass produced with its own running gear(motor and trans) to be eligible for judging

[c.o.]

If you want to talk Fake then take a look at just about every knucklehead and post war Indian Chief at an AMCA event. The early bikes of pre 1920 vintage certainly have their reproduction parts but that was done to get them ridable again. I don't think anyone would argue that making a Yale run after 75 years of silence, is not a noble accomplishment and a benefit to all of the members that want to see, hear, and smell a motorcycle of historic signifigance. The people that are addicticted to the early motorcycles know what they are looking at and know what parts are rare, what parts are usually missing, and who's making the reproduction. If there is monkey business going on in the world of collectible motorcycles, look at the bikes with recirculating oil systems, i.e. Knuckleheads. There are masters at work making "barn fresh" Knuckleheads. I wouldn't buy a Knucklehead these days, unless I could afford to pay Chris Haynes fee to appraise it.

Wow! There are definitely opinions on this subject aren't there? I could write up another opinion but exeric already summed up my thoughts.

[T. Cotten]

The way I see it folks,

The whole problem is that we have lost our collective sense of humor.

Motorcycles used to be fun toys, that you could play with any way you wished.

But somehow, they became significantly valuable.
Now folks carry their egos in their wallets.

The playfull innocence of our predecessors is lost forever.
Creativity is now often only a matter of finding the right catalog.
The more skillful the repair, the more deceitful it is considered.

The game is now "fool the judges".
Add un-judgeable classes, and its a free-for-all.

...Cotten

[exeric]

You're absolutely right Cotten. When I first got interested in old motorcycles, they belonged to outlaw bikers and some of them were pretty scarey. Now, old motorcycles belong to nerds with poison pens and judging sheets and they're scarey too. I think the fun of old motorcycles is doing your own work, but if you're not doing that and are just chasing the perfect score Knucklehead then you're missing the point. However, people enjoy life in many different ways.

[bmh]

the answer is NO!!!! reproduction motors are an instant DQ:D
and if they try to enter it as a motorcycle made in 2009, it must be a mass produced with its own running gear(motor and trans) to be eligible for judging

That may well be , but it doesn't seem to prevent their display in amongst the real motorcycles at the museum in Hershey.

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt220/brianhoward/100_3011.jpg

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt220/brianhoward/100_3012.jpg

Note that we don't even mention that this machine is a reproduction on the display heading.

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt220/brianhoward/100_3013.jpg

You must read all the way to the last little paragraph to ascertain that fun fact. Yet here is a reproduction proudly displayed one bike or so away from Smokin Joes's Big Bertha Excelsior. As it was put so eloquently a while ago "fake is fake". While I mean absolutely no disrespect to the talented and driven individuals that create these things, I must question why we would display a machine that was ineligible for judging at the museum? I'm fairly certain you won't find any Cobra kit cars upstairs in the racing auto display, only the real deal.

[silentgreyfello]

Good golly, that Excelsior has to be the ugliest recreation ever. The shoe box made into a gas tank is not even close to what the real deal would have been. And look at that paint job.... sheesh that is the ugliest green I have seen since the Hodaka Road Toad. It looks like a combo between lime and puke. They even got overspray on the handlebars! Now it is in the museum that the club's brass (including the owner of the bike) voted to spend OUR money on. Then they rub our nose in it with THAT thing.

Sorry, my wife is in a bad mood today.

[pete reeves]

Silentgreyfello.

I get the impression that you don’t like this Bike?

Pete Reeves 860

[c.o.]

I don't know.....the original tank is awfully square.........;)

http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg390/buckboard_2009/OHV_Excelsior_8.jpg

[silentgreyfello]

Silentgreyfello.
I get the impression that you don’t like this Bike?
Pete Reeves 860

Not too much. I guess it is the color.

I'm eating crow for commenting on the shape of the tank! Sorry Mr. Gagen! Part of my angst is the club money that was spent on the museum by our board. Now a member of the board is drawing a salary for running the museum. Hmmmmm. If that is not correct, I'll eat some more crow I guess. It's not too bad.

[exeric]

I sure agree with you about the color. That's LSD green, not Excelsior green.

[William McClean]

Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds ?

:rolleyes:

[exeric]

Seriously though, where did that color come from. Looking at the old photos of the Bob Perry OHV, it looks like it was painted the standard Excelsior Khaki green. Personally, I think the OHV EX is one of the most interesting racing bikes in American motorcycle racing history. A lot of that fascination is due to the tragedy of it's debute and the romantic story of Schwinn taking a hammer to it's stable mates. I have no doubt that it would have been a formidable racer if it had been run more but by 1919, the racing scene was getting much calmer and H-D had pretty much proved it's dominance. Somewhere I have an article that mentions one of the OHV motors being used in a hill climber in the mid 30's.

[c.o.]

It is sort of to bad that the Big Valve X didn't get a chance to take off. The scan on Pete's replica (posted above) paints the "story" as most know it. It seems to me that there were about half a dozen of these bikes built with a spare engine for each machine. Now we are told that Mr. Schwinn smashed some of the spare engines with a sledge hammer. There is no note that I have read that indicates he pulverized any complete machines. That leaves me to wonder if somehow something possibly survived. Nothing has surfaced as of late but at least one machine was saved for sure that day by the hands of one Waldo Korn. He raced the bike privately a couple years after the Perry incident. I wonder if that's the motor that ended up in the hillclimber? Does anyone have any other info on this matter? I'd be interested in hearing what the story is on the hillclimber. That's if you stumble across it Eric. I don't expect you to dig for it...:D I know what it's like digging for that one little tidbit of info. I've spent hours scouring books and magazines just to find something that was nagging in the back of my head.........:D

http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg390/buckboard_2009/OHCExcelsior.jpg

[exeric]

You are so right about that Cory. For me, it's a fool's errand because I am cursed to never find anything I really need. I also have old literature that explains what made a KL Henderson different than a KJ. Cam profiles, etc. I read that years ago and have not come across it since. Sometimes I wonder if I'm just daffy and imagine these things.

[Perry Ruiter]

Seriously though, where did that color come from. Looking at the old photos of the Bob Perry OHV, it looks like it was painted the standard Excelsior Khaki green. Personally, I think the OHV EX is one of the most interesting racing bikes in American motorcycle racing history. A lot of that fascination is due to the tragedy of it's debute and the romantic story of Schwinn taking a hammer to it's stable mates. I have no doubt that it would have been a formidable racer if it had been run more but by 1919, the racing scene was getting much calmer and H-D had pretty much proved it's dominance. Somewhere I have an article that mentions one of the OHV motors being used in a hill climber in the mid 30's.

I know you know this Eric, but that bike is not merely an OHV but overhead cam as well. There was a batch of OHV Super X's built in the late 20s as hillclimbers. If your 30's article only mentions OHV then it's probably one of those Supers rather than an overhead cam bike ... Perry

[exeric]

I meant to say OHC.