Heliman's never; Excellent Alternative Provided [Archive]

jpbingham

08-17-2008, 03:43 PM

Interesting comments - I will never deal with Heilman's.

Why.....

I received a very rude condescending letter, returned with my seat pan, minus shipping funds from my $400.00 money order deposit, actions absolutely uncalled for. I was expecting a finished seat!

To this day I am still puzzled to what evoked such an unprofessional response…

I have scanned the letter but decided not to post, giving the Heilman's a chance to reply to this posting....if they feel warranted.

Basically the given reasons for the return of my untouched seat pan was that I am "perfectionist" and I would NOT be satisfied with their final product, as I would be a very “hard person to please”, that “leather has natural faults”. Very odd comments given my correspondence.

All I asked was for a choice of thread samples and leather to ensure that it matched my frame paintwork – sounds reasonable to me and not unexpected.

Now if I am going spending good money, I expect my requests to be meet, that people work together to get the item finished to a level of achievable satisfaction and that expectations are met.

As for "perfectionists", we in the antique/vintage/veteran motorcycle hobby strive to be perfectionists, to restore and replicate our machines of yesterday, to what they were in that by-gone era.

Meanwhile, I found an alternative person who does amazing work, who provided input and suggestions to give me a prefect seat for my Shaw Auto cycle. Thumbs up on an excellent job well done. Their details are below:

Chunk and Jo at the Saddleshop:

Saddleshop 
20 Harris Circle 
Edgewater, FL 32141 
Phone: 386-690-3797
Email: chucknjo@saddlerestoration.com

They get my business!
I’ll give them a personal recommendation and reference if required.
I’ll post a few pictures of their work these will speak for themselves.

Sorry Heilman's rude behavior does not get my business.

jpbingham

08-17-2008, 04:15 PM

Here's a picture of the finished seat and tool roll.

Chunk and Jo at the Saddleshop:

Saddleshop 
20 Harris Circle 
Edgewater, FL 32141 
Phone: 386-690-3797
Email: chucknjo@saddlerestoration.com

jpbingham

08-17-2008, 04:21 PM

seat from saddle shop + tool roll

jpbingham

08-17-2008, 04:27 PM

Side view of pan seat - for my Clutch Model Shaw

jpbingham

08-17-2008, 04:34 PM

A very happy customer!

jpbingham

08-17-2008, 05:18 PM

Same seat pan returned from Heliman's and then forward to the Saddle Shop - no metal work required

LarryHeil

08-28-2008, 07:32 AM

I am glad that Mr. Bingham had a seat made for his Shaw motorbike.
I have attached a copy of his letter to me.
He sent me his seat pan before I agreed to make this seat. I have no photos or drawings of this bicycle size seat. I could have put leather on his pan but I had no way of knowing what was correct for this motorbike. I would rather turn down an order than make it wrong.
Also, I only have black and one color of dyed brown leather available. I get my leather in a natural un-dyed color then dye it black or brown. It is not practical to try and color match dyed leather since each piece of leather takes the dye a bit differentlyand comes out a slightly different shade of color.
I can make many types of seats, but there are still many that I do not make. (BMW, Triumph, Honda, just to name a few) I do not feel that it is fair to be criticized for not making ALL motorcycle seats.

Ohio-Rider

08-28-2008, 05:23 PM

These types of threads should not be allowed.
If two brothers in a club have a problem between each other, the club shouldn't give them a place to argue about it. That is something that is between those brothers. Let them find their own method of solving the problem between themselves. That ain't what brotherhood or vintage cycles is about. So it don't belong here.

Paquette

08-28-2008, 05:59 PM

AMEN------

George Greer

08-28-2008, 09:16 PM

Ditto...........

Chris Haynes

08-28-2008, 09:20 PM

Personally I feel good when I am warned about a not so good business. I also like to hear recomendations about places who do good work.

George Greer

08-28-2008, 09:27 PM

Chris,

I too like to know who does good...and who don't.

But this is going to become a on-line bitching contest.

George

INLINE4NUT

08-29-2008, 10:19 PM

GEORGE if this forums had moderators we would not have that problem! That being said Its a sad day when two people in the hobby have to get down here! there again misunderstandings can sometimes be aired and resolved by talking it out! Lets alll hope for the best!!!

portagepan

08-31-2008, 07:54 PM

What happened to my post on here the other day? I saw it on the site, but the next time I looked, it disappeared. Hmmmmmm................
Mike

schmittm

09-07-2008, 08:00 PM

Steve, George, Chris,

Is it OK to say something nice? I agree that this is no place to hear about a one-time complaint about a specific transaction that didn't go the way the customer thought it should. If the vendor is consistently bad about always delivering substandard products or services, and its documented, that's a different story. We need alerts about bad vendors, it helps us all.

Now I'll try to balance this particular arguement a little, I have 2 of Larry's seats and I couldn't be happier. I'm not saying that the Messinger #3 Cushion Saddle on my '31 VL is as rare as that Shaw Motorbike seat, but you have to admit that there aren't many around let alone many guys that know how to restore one. Its perfect, I'll post a picture if you like.

Craftsmen in this day and age are a rarity, most of them are specialized and focus on what they know. Asking somebody to do something that they are not familiar with is unreasonable in my opinion. You wouldn't ask a proctologist to do a tooth extraction, why ask a Harley & Indian seat maker to do a one-of-a-kind bicycle style seat?

Mr. Heilman is good at what he knows how to do, at least from what I've seen.

jmho

mike

Ohio-Rider

09-08-2008, 10:21 AM

Well put Mike.

silentgreyfello

09-28-2008, 12:06 AM

Not sure why anyone would send a saddle to someone without making a call to see if they could make it before sending them the seat!!! Then jpbingham has the gall to get upset about it? Look in the mirror, dude!

Heilman's has done nice work for me in the past, but they put they stamp their name on the bottom of the seat, so I started using the Saddleshop and Worshiem. Have been extremely pleased with both.

schmittm

09-28-2008, 12:37 AM

I'll have to admit that I had really mixed emotions about finding Heilman's name tooled on the underside of one the seats I received from him. And then I thought about it and tried to rationalize why they chose to do that, after all it certainly was not stamped on the original seat.

My take on it is simply that, if you do something right, and you are proud of what you have done, why not let everyone know that you are the one that did it. Good or bad, you are taking credit for the finished product. If its junk, the whole world will know who produced it and nobody will ever send you money to do similar work for them. If it is a work of art, and everyone that sees it thinks it meets the standard, you'll get a pat on the back and ensure that you will get repeat, and new, business.

Personally I have much greater respect for somebody that is not ashamed to sign his work. I don't consider it as commercial or as advertising, I view it as somebody that has taken pride in what he has done and he is not afraid to let anybody else know who did it.

Are we going to have any points deducted at an AMCA meet because that stamp appears on the underside of the seat? If Kevin Valentine reads this I hope he will give us an answer.

mike

silentgreyfello

09-28-2008, 02:48 AM

Would it be appropriate for my pinstriper to put his initials on the bike in a discreet spot? How about the guy that rebuilds my motor... can he attach a plaque or stamp his name in the crankcase? My painter does fine work... perhaps signing their name to the bottom of the gas tank would look good? My nickel plating could have some etching in it that says "Bob's Plating".

Maybe I am getting carried away here, but if I am paying for a service, why should I have to advertise for free for the guy that I purchased the service from? I think it is important to warn prospective customers that they may get more than they hoped for.

Here is the bottom side of the seat. Again, no problem with the quality of Heilman's work, just don't like the NASCAR look on my bikes. I since have taken a razorblade and cut their pride pad off, but the epoxy glue still remains. I am going to have this bike judged next year, so I will soon find out if I get docked points for the glue.

Paps

09-28-2008, 08:42 AM

Last points say it all IMO. I agree. If I were judging. I would dock anything not representative of the original. A different name plate, stamping, or tag, not as original, is just that. Not original. Replication is to be like original. Nothing more. Nothing less. Paps

schmittm

09-28-2008, 09:13 AM

First, I want to make it clear that I am NOT a living testamonial to Heilman's Saddles, I merely happen to be one of their customers and i was satisfied with the product I received. I have also purchased from Worsham and Heather's Leathers and I am just as satisfied with what I got for my money from them.

I too was tempted to try to remove the Heilman logo from my seat but, as I mentioned in my last post, I decided to leave it for the reasons I stated.

My rationalization is that it is no different than other "brands" displayed on our bikes. When the Motor Company purchased parts from outside sources many of them came with plainly visible marking that identified who made it. Some examples are the MotoLamp lights and lenses, Guide lamps and lenses, Delco Remy relays, regulators and generators, and millions of pieces of hardware that are clearly stamped with the Chandler Products trademark. Every time you look at your speedometer you know it was made by Stewart Warner or Corbin, and Mesinger was proud enough of that patented #3 cushion Saddle that they tooled the information right in the top of the seat where you stick your butt.

Until I lose points because of it I'm not going to let it bother me.

jmho

mike

silentgreyfello

09-28-2008, 09:56 AM

Mike, Your point is well taken. However, the examples you brought up were OEM parts that were on the bike as it left the factory. None left the factory with a "Heilman Saddles" patch.

kval

09-28-2008, 10:31 AM

Are we going to have any points deducted at an AMCA meet because that stamp appears on the underside of the seat? If Kevin Valentine reads this I hope he will give us an answer.
mike

Mike
just saw your question. the answer is NO, as long as it is on the underside where it is not really visible. remember that good reproduction is allowed

exeric

09-28-2008, 11:44 AM

I agree that it is not appropriate to sign reproduction work. There are exceptions, such as reproduction that could be misrepresented as genuine but even then, high quality reproduction is usually as expensive as genuine and just as good. If a craftsman feels compelled to sign their work it should only be with the permission of the buyer. I like Howard's seats but I too was ticked off when I saw his hallmarkamp glued to my very expensive Henderson seat.

Paquette

09-28-2008, 04:37 PM

I have to agree with Paps on this one. A reproduction seat should have no modern maker's mark, only stamps that would have been original to the factory seat. There are more important issues to look for as far as reproduction quality. Is the thread color correct, neither H-D nor Mesinger used white thread, black seats used black thread, tan and brown seats had brown thread. Are the rivets that hold the leather binding correct? H-D used three different rivet finishes from 1933--today. Is the binding dyed the correct color? Is the edge finish correct for the year of the seat? Is the finish of the leather correct ( here I am thinking of the Rhino grain). Is the padding the correct thickness and material? Is the skirt or apron( if appropriate) the correct material ( leather or pantaline plastic) for the model year? Are the rosettes the correct color and attached with the correct washer and rivets? I have been doing research on this subject for over 7 years and have factory documentation to back my claims.These issues, I believe, are the attention to detail that most often fall by the wayside when bikes are being judged. --Michael Paquette--AMCA-- 6671

kval

09-28-2008, 06:20 PM

I have to agree, if I spent all that money I would not want anything that did not belong there. we are all learning about what is correct for the seats and need all the help we can get. if you do not want to judge the whole bike, at least step up and offer to help us with the seats, so we can learn from you.

Paquette

09-28-2008, 06:38 PM

Kevin--I am not sure if your reply is directed at me but I would be most happy to " step up" as you say and give a mini-seminar to judges at any meet to discuss the issues with seats, saddlebags ( I know they are considered accessories) windshield bags, etc. My goal is not only to make correct products but to educate enthusiasts as to what is or is not correct. I will be at Jefferson and maybe you, me and " No Show Dan" can have a conversation!!! ( Maybe you remember that conversation from Oley)--Michael Paquette--6671

kval

09-28-2008, 09:52 PM

Mike
when we talk about seats, who else would I talk to. maybe we could get you to do a seminar at Rhinebeck next year.
and that is "Disapperin Dan"

Paquette

09-29-2008, 08:37 AM

Kevin--I would be happy to share what I know about seats. I do, however, have a ways to go to be able to judge a bike. I'll see you and "Disapperin" at Jefferson---

LarryHeil

10-01-2008, 06:54 AM

I have an original excellent condition 1920 HD seat. (Mesinger Cushion Suspension No.1) This came from the HD collection. (my father did about 25 seats for the HD museum many years ago and they gave him this seat)
The still original thread is WHITE. Where it is exposed is has gotten a little dirty and gray, but when a piece of thread is taken out of the leather (where is has been protected) is is white for sure.
Please tell me what can be more accurate than this?

Chris Haynes

10-01-2008, 10:07 AM

Paquette

10-01-2008, 07:43 PM

Also-- Factory Production drawings--

Mark Arnould

10-01-2008, 10:02 PM

I would like to see some of this documentation on these black and brown threads. I've been in the seat business for 30 years. I don't know everything. However, I do have one of the most extensive original seat and bag collections out there. I collected them years ago when you could still get the best of the best. After carefully inspecting the threads, they are all white except the ones made after 1953. Which are black. I am not trying to run anyone down. I just want to know the truth to better my product as everyone else is striving to do. If someone has proof, I want to see it!. To sew a seat with white thread. You have to be a true master to have it come out looking right and even. Very few can do this. I do know of one individual that used only black thread to cover his inability to sew straight. He is not in business anymore. Please prove to me this is not the case again. I respect everyone in this business who is striving to always better they're product and have always been willing to work together and share knowledge. This way we can ensure that people are getting what is true and correct.
Best Wishes to All
Mark Arnould
Arnould's Saddlery

Mark Arnould

10-01-2008, 10:05 PM

Barry

10-02-2008, 02:34 AM

Arnould do you have a web site? I would like to talk to you about a set of 1940 Harley bags. Thanks Barry

Mark Arnould

10-02-2008, 11:01 AM

Barry
My email is: theleathermaster@gmail.com or you can reach me on my cell 505-307-6413.
Regards
Mark Arnould

LarryHeil

10-03-2008, 01:05 PM

Also-- Factory Production drawings--

That is a grreat resource ! I would really like to see these "Mesinger Factory Drawings" for the 1920 era Mesinger Cushion Suspension No. 1 seat. This seat weas used on HDs and many other motorcycles of this era. My Father and I have done a lot of research on these seats, seen hundreds of originals over the last 29 years, and made hundreds of reproductions (using original hardware, new leather), but we have never been able to find the Factory Production drawings for a 1920 Mesinger seat. (or any other Mesinger seat for that matter) Please share this wonderful resource with the rest of the motorcycle restoration community. Saddles by Heilman has always tried to be as acurate as was possible when making our seat reproductions.

Mark Arnould

10-05-2008, 02:53 PM

Its amazing how when you ask someone for a little proof, thats the end of it and you don't hear from them again.I am very serious about getting to the bottem of this matter about the white thread. Again, I'm not trying to put anyone on the spot or make anyone look bad. But, if a statement is made that effects the outcome of how correct a persons restoration is. As well as how a few people have made their products as true and correct as they believe for over thirty years. They as well as everyone else in the restoration community expects them to back up what they say. Especially when they're trying to sway the out comes of judges decissions when they judge peoples bikes.
I also think that these 1920's era Messinger factory production drawings are extremly important to the restoration community and think they should be shared.
Regards
Mark Arnould

Chris Haynes

10-05-2008, 04:20 PM

Mark,
You will be pleased to know that Paquette is in the process of publishing a book with all this information in it. But if he tells everything here who will buy the book?

Mark Arnould

10-05-2008, 06:01 PM

Mark,
You will be pleased to know that Paquette is in the process of publishing a book with all this information in it. But if he tells everything here who will buy the book?

This is good he's working on a book. To me it sounds like the book is revolving around whether or not they used white or black thread and if he exposes this . Noone will buy the book to find out which was used. Thats hardly any substance for a book. All I'm asking is if he can back up his statement concerning white thread. Because its causing alot of people in the business problems over something I believe to be mistaken. This is more than a reasonable request. How long has he been in the seat business anyways? Four or five years? That hardly ranks close to being a master. But, I think Its great he's trying to do research and help better the business. I do ask myself though, "Why hasn't he contacted anyone like myself who is the oldest in the seat business and known as the best, for any input and or suggestions". Myself, I am way to busy and backloged with seat orders to ever dream of or have time to write a book. But, I would be happy to offer some input to help someone thats realitively new to the business that is interested learning. I'm sure I can learn a little from him as well. See, everyone can benifit. After all if he does publish a book. I would like to see it as accurate as possible. And like any good referance book. he should have two or more pieces of reliable proof to back up everything he prints or quotes. Otherwise he's doing more damage than good. I wish him the best with it.

Chris Haynes

10-05-2008, 07:55 PM

I can answer the thread color question. I have over 1,500 H-D factory photos going back to the pre teens. No seat is seen with white thread.

Mark Arnould

10-05-2008, 10:34 PM

I can answer the thread color question. I have over 1,500 H-D factory photos going back to the pre teens. No seat is seen with white thread.

I asked for proof (Several times) not lip service. this is getting very tiering. I would love for you to post a few pictures backing what you say. Lets just pick a few random years: 41 or 42 and 46, 47, 50-52. We all know 53 & later was indeed black. That clearly show the thread color. Anything other than a color photo can be deceptive with the color and I'll understand your misconseption. But, will consider any photo that clearly shows a close up of the tread.
I too have hundereds of early photos. Maybe not quite as many as you. I wasted alot of time trying to find one that shows a clear enough close up of a seat to determine if it is even sewn. Let alone the tread color. My girlfriend went through over a hunderd Entusiest from the early thirties to the early 50's trying to find a photo for me
I don't mean to come across hard nosed. I'm sure your a really nice guy. Actually, I'd like to have the honor of meeting with you someday. But, I quit counting after recovering over three thousand vintage seats through the years. Sounds like alot, not for thirty years full time in the business though. I do know for a fact. One of my busiest years. During the hay days of restoring in the early mid 90's. I recovered over 800 in one year. I just can't believe I was wrong so many times. taking so many apart. mistaking black for white. There are some 1930's that were black or the pigmentation from the leather seeped into the flax fibers. Which are know to do that.
This will probably be my last posting on this matter. I have way too many things to do and nothing to prove to anyone. I'm sure you won't post any proof and at this point don't even think you have it. If you do fine if you don't fine. It just doesn't matter. I know my business way better than anyone out there.
"Its not what they don't know that gets them into trouble". "Its what they know for sure, that ain't so".
Best wishes to everyone in the restoration business thats striving for the truth.
Mark Arnould
Arnould's Saddlery

Best to all those in the business

Chris Haynes

10-06-2008, 07:18 AM

Here is 1940
http://hometown.aol.com/hd36knuckl/14973

T. Cotten

10-06-2008, 08:10 AM

Looks white to me.

I never knew they switched to black!; I always assumed it was shoe polish over the natural linen.

....Cotten
PS: Well preserved seat from a '47 attached.

Paquette

10-06-2008, 09:42 AM

Mr. Arnould,
I find it interesting that you find it necessary to attack someone that you know nothing about. FYI, I have been doing leatherwork for 40 odd years and have been doing the research for this book for about 7 years. There are two reasons I have not contacted you for your imput; #1 I have never heard of you and #2 You do not do research based on other people's opinions, you need cold hard FACTS and documentation. I have visited the factory where all H-D seats and saddlebags have been produced since 1933 five times and have copies of factory production drawings and without fail they state black or brown thread used on both seats and bags. I have tried to post a scan but the info is too small to be seen, so if you will send me a PM with your address I will be happy to mail you some info and then you may see for yourself and post to this forum. By the way, the book is hardly just about thread colors as I believe other issues such as when the change from nickle plated rivets to parkerized and then to black japanned steel to attach the binding to the shell assembly ( you probably incorrectly refer to it as a seat pan) occured to name but one. I have been late posting this info as I have been at the Jefferson meet which was fantastic. In closing, I too am way to busy to keep up with work in my shop and write a book, but I am determined to do both so folks like yourself can see the facts--Not opinions of what you think you see--just facts--Michael Paquette--AMCA 6671

Chris Haynes

10-06-2008, 09:32 PM

Looks white to me.

Cotten,
Ya better get yer glasses fixed. ;-)

Chris Haynes

10-06-2008, 09:38 PM

Here is a factory photo of a 1939.
http://hometown.aol.com/oldmcstuff/14860+1939+EL+Top+view.jpg

Chris Haynes

10-06-2008, 09:41 PM

[QUOTE=Mark Arnould;I just can't believe I was wrong so many times.[/QUOTE]

You had better believe it. :)

Mark Arnould

10-07-2008, 12:23 AM

As I said. A black and white picture you can not tell from. example. What color is the paint? Are the spokes plated or painted? What color is the tail light lense in your 40 picture? Gray? We can not tell the thread color in the picture no more than we can say the tail ligth is red in the picture. Is the seat black or tan. Why does the seat pan (shell) have no holes in it? everyone knows they did in 40. Whats up with that? I'm not trying to down grade you or make you look bad. Nor am I trying to get in a pissing match with you. I didn't have time to get pictures of some seats today with white thread. But I'll have someone post them tomorrow on a new thread. This is n't right to keep this going on a Thread with a negative heading against Heilman. You don't have pictures of every bike seat ever made out there to say they never made one with white thread. Lets say some production drawings do exist. Who's to say they were always followed. That certain years they didn't make changes and not revise wording on ther plans. I've seen this case many times. Besides, I've made quote that black may have been posible in the thirties.
These threads aren't designed to be used like there starting to be used for. We shouldn't bicker back and fourth like childern. When I first posted, it was to find out information. not insult anyone or cause hard feelings. I just wanted statements to be backed up. because, I'm getting alot of questions from clients concerning statements you and Parqutte have made. Which I've heard was a really nice guy. This has been getting totally out of hand. So, I tried to call him several times today and my call was never answered.
Not to fight with him or belittle him but to meet him and just to chat. I think its important for the competition to know each other and get along. Theres no reason for us not to get along as every one in this business used to do. After all, we're all striving for the same thing. To make the business better. I hope to meet you as well one day. And hopefully we're just be able to laugh all this off.
Sincerely
Mark Arnould

T. Cotten

10-07-2008, 07:13 AM

Attached are four more seats that shouldn't exist, according to one or the other of the two conflicting viewpoints offered.

The top left is a pre-war seat with no ventilating holes in the "pan". The binding has disintegrated as so many do, to reveal black thread.

Top right is a WLA seat with "white" thread. (I prefer to call it "natural".)

On the bottom are two '60s seats with 'white' thread, bright enough to have been bleached before waxing.

The fossil record says the experts have a lot more research to do!
It would be very tragic if pieces of history are destroyed and 'restored' based entirely upon revised hearsay, out-of-context documents, or subjective opinions of color in black and white photos. (People have a habit of seeing what they want to see.)

Those who created our history were not as obsessed with perfect conformity as we would make them out to be.

....Cotten

LarryHeil

10-07-2008, 07:50 AM

Thank you Cotten,
That is my viewpoint too. Physical evidence (yours is great) is the best.
My father and I have seen hundreds of seats over the last 30 years and have a very good iimpression of what was correct and not. We have also done a lot of reasearch in libraries and through old magazines, parts books, and factory brochoures.
We can tell people what we have learned but unfortunately there is little we can show other restorers. Sould have taken more photos over the last years, but photos can be doctored or just not clear about the issue.
Saddles by Heilman strives to be correct as we know but if our customer wants it done differently we will accomodate him. (you want black thread on a seat that we know to have had white thread, that is fine)
Now due to popular demand, Saddles by Heilman is not putting our small logo on the bottom of seats that we restore.