vote here

[mmoore]

we voted a shovelhead forum in here a while back (thanks) lets see how the members feel about this thread and if we should save it , change it or can it. its too bad as there is some good in it, but I feel we should can it

[Baytown]

I'm happy to keep it.
Who knows, one day there may be more people willing to use it.
Ken.

[kval]

I will repeat what I said in another post, if real names are used MAYBE some of the dirt throwing will stop. this spot is being used mostly to complain and we hardly ever hear the other side of the story. members should also post when they are happy about dealing with a vendor and post a positive message. that would be a real help to someone looking for something. neeless to say I say keep it

[Paps]

I say keep it with one exception.......A Hole customers shoud be named also. Paps

[Paquette]

This section of the forum has been good for me as I stand by my knowledge and craftsmanship. That said, if this section is to stand there is a need, as Cotten and others have stated, for a dead beat payers section a sort of " Vendors rate Customers" , but that will open a can of worms that can never be closed. I think this forum needs to be about the sharing of information, not a crap match. I really don't know because one post about happy customers will never match one post from someone that you try to please but will not tell you what the problem is. For those of us who make our products by hand, one at a time, there will always be imperfections. Hopefully, the craftsman is the only one who knows.

[Ohio-Rider]

Sure we should keep it. As Kevin said, this a great place to find out about reputable suppliers. New members need a place like this to make their own decisions about where to spend their money.

If we change the name from “Vendors Rated” to “Satisfied Customers” that might be a way to go. Life is full of negative ****. Lets try to keep it out of here.

[kval]

everybody
let me talk to the web people and see what we can come up with, maybe a second spot for satisfied customers is an answer.
also vendors, if you keep it clean why not ask nicely for someone to pay you what is owed for your product/service. we need the vendors to keep playing with our toys.
there are a lot of vendors out there that make high quality repo parts that they invest a lot of time and money to produce because they love the hobby too. you can bet they are not getting rich on this.

[George Greer]

I don't have a problem with using my real name...

I don't mine keeping bitch forum threads going, but it IS a two way street...

I DO recomend..

Tom Cotten (Liberty).....Kurt and Wendy Riffe (45 Parts Depot-Holland). JW Boon & Rene (Holland). Mr Baker, at NOS Parts Ohio


Only ONE complaint....Tech support at J&P Cycles.

Don't bitch at me when I call you and ask for support and you give me incorrect information to begin with...........THEN be even more of a smart mouth when I call you back about it.

George Greer
Markt Einersheim Germany

[rousseau]

Hello all

As I have been watching this thread I recall a while back we had some very similar post. I especially recall Cotton wanting to "rate " his customers. I replied back then that I thought this was a bad idea and I still feel this way. Some members felt it would simply turn into a "feedback" forum like ebay. The best analogy was that it would become a "cyber based shouting match".
What is happening this time is the classic "one person is going to ruin it for everybody".
Dennis Rousseau
Knoxville TN.
AMCA#11302

[T. Cotten]

Just for clarity,
I did not suggest "rating" customers.
I suggested a "Stiffs List" so that other vendors could assess their risk, notify errant customers who may simply have forgotten, and add some balance to this fragile new system.

As it stands now, customers are sacred cows, while vendors are fair game.

If the mission of the AMCA is to foster vintage motorcycling, it will occasionally want to administer a little medicine. But too much too soon is poison.

No such forum catagory would work without a lot of editing, moderating, and responsibility of all parties involved.
This brave new cyberworld just isn't mature enough for that.

....Cotten

[kval]

Cotton
you are right "rate" the customer would not work, BUT I see no problem with you asking
John Q. Member to pay his past due bill for one of your great floats(which I use) without getting into nasty name calling it might make people think twice about burning a vendor out of his hard earned money.
without the vendors, 90% of these old bikes would not be on the road(mine included)!

[Baytown]

we voted a shovelhead forum in here a while back (thanks) lets see how the members feel about this thread and if we should save it , change it or can it. its too bad as there is some good in it, but I feel we should can it

I read this post wrong. I thought you were asking if we should keep the Shovel Head forum! I thought it was a bit of a strange question!

Re the Vendors Rated list. I agree with both sides. There are some poor performing venders, and with out fail, there are be poor performing buyers.
What do we do? I want to know about companies to be aware of, just as we all would. That being said, mud sticks, and people can easily be tarnished by aggressive or unreasonable customers.

I'd like to keep the list, but more effort needs to put in by the customer before they 'bag' the venders in some cases. That being said, it's great to hear the positive comments as well.

Effectivly, I'm fence sitting.

Ken.

[mmoore]

yea I could have worded it better as a former shovel owner I felt we should include them but I did mean the vender ratings . I too also feel that it is a good tool properly used and read it more for the positive than the neg which I usally dont read. from this forum I have learned that the next float I buy will be from somebody here. I will not buy on ebay if I can possibly avoid it among other things. lots of good info BUT I am dissapointed with this forum being used to try to settle something out which wont be done here. we as members should be wary of joining any fight that develops here. I want to avoid any liability that might arise from it and hurt the club. it is not easy to reccomend to end this as many vendors here and elsewhere in this feild have gone out of thier way to provide me with nothing else than EXCELLENT service and should be thanked for that in places like here so it wasnt easy to think about closing this forum but I dont want to see the mudslinging that was going on. I was voted down (no hard feelings) but in the future I will not read any posts like that one. thanks for all the imput here guys lets move on to better things like DAVENPORT in 9 days!!!!!

[mmoore]

im glad they locked those threads I see that some of you are starting to agree that this is going too far. as a mechanic I have been on both sides of issues and can see that these arguments will probaly not solve anything. as a vender I also have refused service to some as they have unrealistic requirements but it also cost me as they made comments about my ability. maybe if we have no first hand experence with these venders we should refrain from commenting. please proofread your comments and if you are in a bad mood wait a day or so before submitting. when you post something here we are also judging you.

[fabercycle]

I vote to do away with this category.


Since the AMCA judges bikes, I guess now they feel they can provide a forum for judging vendors (people). Gee, what a "God" complex that looks like. Does anybody consider that the general public can look at this mess, and think "man, I'll never join that club!"

Shouldn't we try to have a more attractive image to the public? Isn't that best for the club?


I know from experience every vendor has trouble with customers being dishonest on a weekly basis, with problems such as non-payment (theft) returning damaged goods, after getting their refund (theft), stealing off your table at swap meets (theft) EVERY Davenport meet I have product stolen from me.

I noticed many members wanting to "keep" this category (in this, and the other thread) have a high AMCA number posted proudly. I guess you are fairly new. Well here's how it used to work..........you make some friends in the club, be a good guy, and within a couple of years "word of mouth" lets everyone know who to steer clear of........as well as who you want to get to know better.

I'm not so sure that it can't become a legal problem for the AMCA if this "defamation of character" platform isn't dis-abled.

The cons out weigh the pros by far.


I've had dealings with many amca vendors over the years, and I have never met one, including the ones that have been criticized, that wouldn't bend over backwards to make sure a customer was happy, give a refund, or do a job over.........as long as they were treated with respect, and the customer didn't start a fight about it. People need to work out their problems like adults, and not "air their problems" publicly.

This whole thing is like a "trailer trashy" reality show..........yes that's it, lets get Jerry Springer as the moderator.....that will fix it!

[bobbyt]

I vote we keep it . . . maybe we need a moderator to keep the posts on point.

[mmoore]

I have seen no solutions to fix this problem as of yet. so if we cant take care of this problem I still feel we should drop this thread. I do get annoyed that we are quick to post even tho some of us have no real knowlege of what actually transpired. there are 2 sides to this story. Im not sure a moderator (censure?) would work without making it worse however the jerry springer idea sounds like the best bet yet. I also find the previous comment about what other nonmebers are thinking of us to be a sobering thought. remember this is thier fight not ours.

[silentgreyfello]

I have changed my view on this matter in the last couple of weeks based upon the saddle thread (no pun intended). I have been critical of a vendor in the past on this website that now seems like a trivial matter to me. I regret that and intend to talk directly to the vendor face to face. It is too easy to take the respect out of any dealings when a person is sitting at a keyboard where you don't have to act within the acceptable bounds of our society.

I vote to get rid of this "rate the vendor" forum because their are usually two sides to every story, so if a vendor doesn't see the post, many folks could easily jump to the conclusion that the vendor's services are lacking by hearing one side of the story and not the rebutal.

Secondly, if a vendor does shoddy work/services, word will travel fast enough without this forum.

Last, these are people's livelyhood's were dealing with... wives, kids, grandkids, mortgages, etc... Put it this way, if one of us made a mistake in our own job, would we want the whole company to know of that mistake, or just the folks that needed to know.

[milw.pirates]

keep it, it is usefull info, one way or the other.
Ken S. #6457

[c.o.]

I have changed my view on this matter in the last couple of weeks based upon the saddle thread (no pun intended). I have been critical of a vendor in the past on this website that now seems like a trivial matter to me. I regret that and intend to talk directly to the vendor face to face. It is too easy to take the respect out of any dealings when a person is sitting at a keyboard where you don't have to act within the acceptable bounds of our society.

I vote to get rid of this "rate the vendor" forum because their are usually two sides to every story, so if a vendor doesn't see the post, many folks could easily jump to the conclusion that the vendor's services are lacking by hearing one side of the story and not the rebutal.

Secondly, if a vendor does shoddy work/services, word will travel fast enough without this forum.

Last, these are people's livelyhood's were dealing with... wives, kids, grandkids, mortgages, etc... Put it this way, if one of us made a mistake in our own job, would we want the whole company to know of that mistake, or just the folks that needed to know.

Well said!

[jww]

I have changed my view on this matter in the last couple of weeks based upon the saddle thread (no pun intended). I have been critical of a vendor in the past on this website that now seems like a trivial matter to me. I regret that and intend to talk directly to the vendor face to face. It is too easy to take the respect out of any dealings when a person is sitting at a keyboard where you don't have to act within the acceptable bounds of our society.

I vote to get rid of this "rate the vendor" forum because their are usually two sides to every story, so if a vendor doesn't see the post, many folks could easily jump to the conclusion that the vendor's services are lacking by hearing one side of the story and not the rebutal.

Secondly, if a vendor does shoddy work/services, word will travel fast enough without this forum.

Last, these are people's livelyhood's were dealing with... wives, kids, grandkids, mortgages, etc... Put it this way, if one of us made a mistake in our own job, would we want the whole company to know of that mistake, or just the folks that needed to know.

VERY WELL SAID !

[Chuck#1848]

I have changed my view on this matter in the last couple of weeks based upon the saddle thread (no pun intended). I have been critical of a vendor in the past on this website that now seems like a trivial matter to me. I regret that and intend to talk directly to the vendor face to face. It is too easy to take the respect out of any dealings when a person is sitting at a keyboard where you don't have to act within the acceptable bounds of our society.

I vote to get rid of this "rate the vendor" forum because their are usually two sides to every story, so if a vendor doesn't see the post, many folks could easily jump to the conclusion that the vendor's services are lacking by hearing one side of the story and not the rebutal.

Secondly, if a vendor does shoddy work/services, word will travel fast enough without this forum.

Last, these are people's livelyhood's were dealing with... wives, kids, grandkids, mortgages, etc... Put it this way, if one of us made a mistake in our own job, would we want the whole company to know of that mistake, or just the folks that needed to know.

I would vote to dump it as I see no real good that has come from it.

Word of mouth is a very powerful tool when used properly.

I feel that it is way to easy to have a hair sideways you know where.......and decide to trash others a person buying a product SHOULD ask questions and a vender SHOULD do the same.........it's called comunication.

[longhorn]

I vote that we keep the vendors rated forum.I would like to recommend 2 vendors that I have had excellent results from.One is International Chromium Plating for their cadmuim and parkerizing.They advertise in the AMCA magazine.The other is Charles Pieper in Ohio who sent me a very correct foot clutch rod that he makes.I heard of him through word of mouth.I mentioned Tom Faber's excellent work in another thread.
Ken Kalustian
AMCA # 2065

[Ohio-Rider]

I don’t believe that closing down the “Vendors Rating” section here would solve much. Wouldn’t all the folks that want to bitch about something just move the discussion to the “Parking Lot Chatter” section?

These problems can only be resolved by the timely intervention of a moderator. Small fires are much easier to deal with. Most of the arguments here lately would have been forgotten about by now had they not been allowed to grow into what they have become.

Once again I will offer my time to the club and membership to keep an eye open around here. I may not be the most knowledgeable member here when it comes to antique motorcycles, but I sure do know all about pissing on small fires.

[40 Nuck]

Just got a brain flatulation ... may not even be a good idea, it may be too convoluted and not a workable alternative, but thought I'd throw it out.

What about a vendor voting button (from 1 to 5) that each member only got to vote once for and was then locked out. Aside from that, no comments, or only positive comments could be made. Thereby, you'd get the opportunity to score a vendor low but one voice wouldn't be a difference maker ... it would take a number of disgruntled customers to influence the score significantly. Anyone could start a new vendor rated button with an initial vote, and others who saw the button pop up could join in either positive or negative. If Larry Hiel had 300 postives and two negatives, then the quality of his overall body of work would be reflected, and one or two difficult customers wouldn't threaten to ruin his reputation. If a vendor had 15 of 10 disgruntled customers, then I would be more likely to stear clear, or at the least, engage the "grapevine".

This might appeal to vendors more than the existing default "b*tch" method, but also not keep folks from sharing feedback in a way that is not out of proportion to their number (i.e., 1 of many). It may also be a way to generate interest in the site. I may or may not think of mentioning a vendor, but if I saw a vendor rated who I have dealt with, I would participate. While we often don't act unless our feathers are ruffled, I really do think that most of us enjoy sharing favorable feedback more than negative. This would prompt us to do so. Just my 2.5 cents.

[mmoore]

that sounds like a workable solution, not a brain fart but a good idea!

[jmanjeff]

You can start a Poll but what is to stop some one from posting to the Thread. We will still need a moderators. Maybe if we can put 40 Nucks idea and and some of my post #17 http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bboard/showthread.php?t=13475&page=2 togeather we may have something

[40 Nuck]

You're right, Jeff ... would still need moderators to keep bad stuff off.

[Tgambill]

I like the voting button idea. I could always private message a voter if I wanted more details.

[r.mac]

we voted a shovelhead forum in here a while back (thanks) lets see how the members feel about this thread and if we should save it , change it or can it. its too bad as there is some good in it, but I feel we should can it

if this is about the shovelhead forum, KEEP IT, i just bought a shovel and need a place to turn. the vendors rated seems like a good idea till it turns to a pissing match, but its nice to see that the moderators are moderating.....

[T. Cotten]

If the mission of the AMCA is to foster the future of vintage motorcycling, shouldn't it support dedicated vendor's needs as well as the next enthusiast off the street?

....Cotten

[kval]

Cotton and all vendors
as far as I am concerned, if you have a problem with a customer and nothing seems to work for you. then contact the consumer affiars director(listed in mag) he will attempt to get both parties together to settle the problem. if the customer refuses all attempts to fix it, then the vendor should tell the other vendors about the customer. use this section(Vendors Rated), and as long as it stays civil I will leave it for all to see

[40 Nuck]

Kevin ... as always, the voice of reason. Thanks for staying involved ... I know it takes a lot of time and patience.

[kval]

Kevin ... as always, the voice of reason. Thanks for staying involved ... I know it takes a lot of time and patience.

Vic
time is one thing, now that I am retired I am busier then ever. patience on the other hand is something that was hard learned, that is why I have to THINK 3 TIMES before putting it in print

[T. Cotten]

Kevin!

Your open perspective is greatly appreciated!

But I am at a loss, at this time, as to how to present a format that would honestly benefit vendors, or effectively reach those errant customers who probably only forgot to pay anyway.
As I posted previously: "No such forum catagory would work without a lot of editing, moderating, and responsibility of all parties involved.
This brave new cyberworld just isn't mature enough for that."

My own 'Stiffs List' is not significant;
If other dedicated vendors do not wish to stand up for their own welfare, then they shall continue to be fair game while seasonal enthusiasts are sacred cows.

...Cotten

[40 Nuck]

If the mission of the AMCA is to foster the future of vintage motorcycling, shouldn't it support dedicated vendor's needs as well as the next enthusiast off the street?

....Cotten

Cotton!

Is what you're asking simply a forum to address deadbeat or difficult customers? If so, it seems like Kevin's response addressed that ... let me know if I'm wrong.

However, if there is some deeper "dedicated vendors' need", then I think this forum should consider reasonable and appropriate opportunities to support vendors as well. Like you or someone else alluded to earlier in the thread ... helping vendors helps us all.

[T. Cotten]

Vic!

Kevin showed an open attitude, and that is commendable.

My point is that if no other vendors are willing to stand up for their own welfare, then they shall always be a target for wankers and stiffs, without ever taking advantage of this valuable medium to advance the industry.

It shouldn't take a lot of brain cells to realize that the future of vintage motorcycling shall suffer if there is no balance.

...Cotten

[KNUCK]

Not sure what happened to the topic, keep the shovelhead forum for sure.

[Bill Pedalino]

I agree - the shovelhead forum should stay......

[mmoore]

this thread was not intended to vote on the shovel forum, that misunderstanding happened because I could have worded it better. (please reread the first post) I supported the shovel forum and still do. the Issue I had was a problem with was a disagreement between a vendor and customer went public. then others joined in based on what they were reading. I feel that unless you have dealt with one or the other persons involved we should remain neutral until we have verifiable facts. I was commited to get this thread dropped as the whole world can read this (as I understand) this does not present our group in the manner that I am used to. now that kevin is involved and wants to keep this thread open I will support him and any decision he makes. this might be what it needs thanks kevin! anybody else mentions anything about dropping the shovel forum, kevin you better delete all my posts on this thread !!!!!!!

[sludge]

keep the shovelhead forum....sorry i couldn't resist.

[Chris in Japan]

IMHO, you can not close a thread because you fear misuse of it... We fight this with self-discipline.

If we close it, this would apply to the complete forum then. As an example, I could ask technical advice for my knuck, somebody could have given me a bad one despite his very best intention and caused me significant damage...

We can always improve communication quality without closing communication lines.

Do not get me wrong, please! Just an opinion... Keep it open!

And I add my second vote: having a 47F a 48FL and a 70FLH I would be more than pleased if you don't kill that lovely shovel thread! ;o)

[jmanjeff]

this thread is over a year old and the shovelhead forum is not going to be closed