Need help firing up my 45

[ratfink]

Hoping someone can help me with getting my rebuilt 45 started. We had it running and then took of the Linkert which was leaking and dumping too much fuel. Got the carb back (thankns Cotten!) and the points have been set (.22), new plugs (.40 gap) and the battery is fully charged.

I wasn't geting anything out of it, so I shot some starter fluid in the cab and all it will do is spit back out the carb.

I must be overlooking something (yes the ignition is on!).

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[T. Cotten]

Ratfink!

Did you pressuretest the manifold as suggested in my enclosed notesheet?

....Cotten

PS: You might want to review your plug gap spec. A points system likes .026" better.

[ratfink]

I must admit that I did not pressure test. Call it blind faith, or ignorance, but I'm at the point where I if it works fine I will have nice servicar. If it doesn't, well call it art!

Part of my frustration is with the "hack" that I had given the bike to finish. Upon closer inspection, I think he did not set the circuit breaker properly.

It did run, albiet terrible and super rich. Could it be that dumping enough fuel into the cylinders would compensate for improper timing for a short time?

I read that you were looking to reloacte. I wish you the very best. Be sure to send me an email so we can settle up. Thank you!

[ratfink]

With the flywheel timing mark proeprly aligned, here is the position on the breaker cam.

Where should the mark on the cam be aligned?

I appreciate the help.

[P LaLonde]

ratfink,
your 45 is not any different than my 38 80. so that hash mark in your photo,should point to the fiber on your points.
Now on your distribertor base there is also a hash mark ,on the out side towords the bottom of the base. your advancer ring should have a hole in it. these Should be alined

try putting your cap back on an advance the spark, check to see where the shaft pointer is now.

you mite haft to pull your base an turn your shaft one way or the other a TOOTH.

Hope this helps

TooTall Paul

[T. Cotten]

Ratfink!

Your manifold is still another primary suspect for problems. You can diagnose any leaks, their location, and magnitude quickly with 15 psi and some soapy water: http://virtualindian.org/11techleaktest.html.

Curing all vacuum leaks will not only make starting easy, it will lengthen the fuse on the motor considerably.

My shop is paralyzed with renovating and reorganizing, but not relocating.
(I'll be in touch ASAP,...)

....Cotten

[ratfink]

Hey Cotten!

So I have narrowed the problem down to the carb. Everything checks out (no leaks), timing is dead on, got spark.

There is gas in the bowl but it is not drawing into the manifold. The starter fluid will get it to fire up, but nothing more.

So how do I get the carb to start flowing? I have the idle adjustment (right side) turned out 3 turns and the high speed (left side) 5 turns. I removed the plug on the bottom of the bowl and there was gas, so the bowl is full. I don't even smell gas after kicking.

Thanks for your assistance.

[JohnR]

Are the intake and exhaust valves adjusted correctly?

[T. Cotten]

Sorry for another tardy reply, but distractions are piling upon me.

Try starting with the HS needle at ~1.5 turns, and the LS (the one with the lift lever) at about 4 turns. This should start, but on the rich side.

Starting fluid is not terribly safe, and tends to wash down the cylinders walls quickly. If starting is suspected to be difficult because of a lack of fuel, try hand-choking a couple of kicks with the ignition off.
(This will also help to purge the carb of any rustflakes, insect wings, or hairballs.)

Please quickly re-install the spark arrestor (air horn or cleaner) before switching on the igniton.

.....Cotten

[cheifrider]

Originally posted by ratfink
Hey Cotten!

So I have narrowed the problem down to the carb. Everything checks out (no leaks), timing is dead on, got spark.

There is gas in the bowl but it is not drawing into the manifold. The starter fluid will get it to fire up, but nothing more.

So how do I get the carb to start flowing? I have the idle adjustment (right side) turned out 3 turns and the high speed (left side) 5 turns. I removed the plug on the bottom of the bowl and there was gas, so the bowl is full. I don't even smell gas after kicking.

Thanks for your assistance.

rat, you are describing the exact problem i had with my 1941 u .right to the t. i originally tested the manifold the old fashioned way , with a spray can of something or other.i finally conceded that i would have to take it apart and do it the right way, as cotten suggests all over these forums .it took me about 1 hour to make a manifold testor ,and another 2 hours or so to identify and fix numerous problem areas in the intake system. i thought some were so small that they couldnt make a difference , but i think all these "little" things together make for major hard starting .i put my u back together yesterday and it started the way it is supposed to.while i was doing the fine tune on the carb i conducted a little experiment. i loosened 1 manifold bolt ever so slightly(1/4 turn mabey)and the bike coughed and spit like crazy.i know its a pain to do all this work ,but, your bike will start and you will have the peace of mind knowing that you dont have a manifold leak .my leak was so severe that i burned the front piston about a year ago , i have a 48 wl that runs like a champ , but i can never get the plugs to be the same color.the rear cylinder is always slightly lean. i will bet a dollar to a donut that when i test the manifold on it i will find my problem.im also going to perform this test on all my other bikes.its only half a day per bike ,if you dont find a major malfunction somewhere.good luck with your carby and if you need a pic of my version of the testorgive me a jingle,tom

[ratfink]

Thanks to allfor the replies.

When I first built the bike, I had a severly leaky carb and manifold. It did run but really rich and bogged out under a load.

The carb was rebuilt and I reinstalled everything. Now it seems as though there is no gas drawing through the carb. Gas is in the bowl, but there is no smell of gas after kicking and kicking and kicking. The starter fluid will get it to fire for a few seconds and thats it.

I retest the manifold, but I'm confident it is fine.

Wish me luck!

[cheifrider]

good luck , hey dont forget to make sure your intake valves are closed when testing ,on my 1st test they were not ,leading me to believe there were no leaks just some food for thought....

[ratfink]

Okay, upon further review there was a leak.

Now the problem is eliminiating the leak.

I removed the intake and cleaned everything up. Cotten had installed the plastic bushings, so that eliminates one potentila problem.

On the side that is leaking, it is extemely difficult to hand turn the nut over the bushing. The other side is loose and free. Does give any insight?

Thanks.

[cheifrider]

rat, i might guess that the nut has been "ovaled "thus making it smaller in one area over another.or the inside of the nut may have had junk or a burr on it makin the nut gall the bushing?

[T. Cotten]

The PEEK ring can be sanded with 220 grit if you need to clearance more for the nut (and whenever installation has left a mark upon the mating faces).

The outer diameter surface of the ring that rubs upon the nut threads is not a sealing surface, and does not require a 'finish'.

Often the second phase of testing is required to locate a specific leak: Pressureize each nipple separately with the manifold assembly removed. If your leak is from between the nipple and the cylinder casting, the manifold can't cure it.

Good luck, and let us know what you find.

....Cotten

[ratfink]

Okay, I found the source of the leak. I remvoed the manifold and was able to get a better test around the nipple and discovered the leak.

So I guess I'm hosed.

Any suggestions besides tearing down the bike and having work done to the jug?

[DWN]

Let first say that I've never work on a bike like this one, but have an observation.

The bike in question has gas in the carb, but is not drawing it into the cylinders. This suggests some other possible options.

Have you checked that both sparkplugs are dry? Have you measured the quantity of gas in the float bowl? Perhaps something is holding the float so high that you have very little gas from which to draw.

Perhaps the problem is something very basic, and might be easily remedied before going on to the tougher things.

But, like I mentioned, I'm no expert on old bikes. But I have fixed more than my share of old tractors and other farm equipment. (Thus the EIEIO in my signature.) The basics are the same.

I've been embarassed plenty of times when someone pointed out that I'd overlooked a simple solution. I hate when that happens...:-)

[cheifrider]

rat, in cottens manifold testing procedures in the virtual indian link, i think he describes the procedure for fixing the nipple to head leak you are describing.had to do with a funky looking tool he had for re- riviting the nipple back in .i didnt have to go that far with my u model so i cant offer any info .believe me , i can feel your frustration from here, i was jerking around with my 41 for months before i got it through my thick head to do it by the numbers as cotten suggests. good luck,tom

[ratfink]

Unfortunately the bike is completely assembled, so any repair will be extensive and problematic. The motor had been rebuilt. I guess the builder never tested the nipples. With the builder 5 ours away, getting the bike to him is a pain.

I could pull the front cylinder and have it sent off for repair. But then I would have to reassemble everything. Somehting I can do, but don;t want to do. Or I might trailer it up to him and have it taken care of.

Come to think of it, would pulling the motor be easier? That way I get it back 100% assembled.

[cheifrider]

im wondering if it cant be done with the motor in the bike ,dont know tho, have to ask cotten on that one

[T. Cotten]

Anything's possible, but it ain't always fun.

Nipple replacements are never fun, even on the bench, much less in the chassis.

....Cotten

[ratfink]

What is the process to replace the nipple? Not that I would attempt it, but I would like to get an idea as to what is involved.

And should the builder have pressure tested the cylinder before assembly? The guy who built the motor is very good but perhaps human and overlooked it. Or is it something that is often overlooked?

[T. Cotten]

The basics of nipple replacement are discussed at http://virtualindian.org/11techleaktest.html,
but everyone is at the mercy of their own resources, patience, and powers of observation.

Once again I must assert that Liberty does not offer this service at large, as only established accounts can be honored as our re-organization progresses. Anyone seeking the foundation for a career in this industry should contact me,.... and then a shrink.

....Cotten

[ratfink]

So it is definitely something that needs to be done with the cylinder removed. Yikes!


Looks like the bike will be laid up for awhile. Dare I ask, are there any shortcuts or on-bike repairs?

[T. Cotten]

I have done it en chassis more times than I care to remember, so it is possible ; But those times that come to mind are those attempts that failed.

As I posted, you are "at the mercy of (your) own resources, patience, and powers of observation ".

Take your time.
Take no shortcuts.

....Cotten

[ratfink]

Since I won't be doing the work, I guess removing the motor and sending it off to the builder is the best approach.

This really stinks. I know it all part of the hobby and if I wanted "easy" I'd be riding a 2007 Harley. But having to have work redone that was supposed to be done right the first time is extremely frustrating.

[koanes]

How bad is the leak? Is the nipple loose in the cylinder? If the nipple is secure and you are just getting some bubbles around the rivet or sealing surface between the nipple and cylinder, it would not be the cause of your starting problem. You can easily cure a minor leak with some goo, whether it be penetrating loctite,gasket sealer or silicone. The pressurized leak test is a great tool in the search for the absolute seal, but keep in mind your intake system operates with vacuum not pressure. There are hundreds of great running machines out there on the road that would not pass the pressure test. Keep up your efforts to figure out your starting problem and then deal with the leak if you find you are having trouble with fine tuning or a lean condition at that cylinder.

[ratfink]

I found the source of the hard/non starting problem!!!!!

I disassembled the carb and the float was jammed all the way down, but the needle valve was blocking any gas flow. I think I know what happended. Let's just say "user error".

So no gas, no start!

Carb is all back together and come Saturday I will see if it fires up.

I'm going to overlook the nipple leak for now. Once I get it running and everything checks out okay (tranny, rear, brakes) then I might opt to fix the nipple. It would be a real pain if I laid the bike up for the nipple, only to find out the tranny needed attention later. If there are two (or three) birds to kill, I'll do them all at once.

[T. Cotten]

As always, I must preach zero tolerance for any and all vacuum leaks.

Let's hope you don't find out why.

....Cotten

[Paps]

AMEN to that Cotten. Paps

[cheifrider]

i agree with cotten ,it cost me a whole top end job.................